Confirming worrisome metal on metal grinding noise

[cr08]

So I am very well aware of the known transmission issues on these vehicles in the earlier model years. Got a 2013 here. So far knock on wood with 81k on the odometer it has been behaving.

 

However a noise that has been very slowly progressing over time has me bugged especially with only a few months left on the hybrid warranty. Unfortunately last time I had my dealer check it out they were unable to hear anything (to be fair, it was VERY hard to hear even for me at the time) and even now it can only be heard under very specific circumstances. Basically the only time it is heard is with the windows down, radio off, and if I am driving past another car or a wall or object that the sound can bounce off from the driver side. Anything outside of that such as driving in the open or windows rolled up it can't be heard easily unless it is SUPER quiet, no other cars/street noise. The noise though is a very distinct metal on metal grinding type noise, continuous with no rhythm I can tell. And it occurs under any load, accel or decel and seems to increase in loudness if more load is applied.

 

Normally I would just say this is a wheel bearing somewhere but with the known transmission issues and the end of warranty coming up it has me a little spooked. Any thoughts especially from those who have dealt with the transmission failure before?

[SnowStorm]

Do you hear it with ICE not running (EV mode) or with A/C running or not?  See if your dealer will run the car on a lift and check with a stethoscope.  I think that's how my dealer verified my transmission was bad.

 

[cr08]

I've basically only ever heard it in EV mode. It's JUST quiet enough that it would be hard to hear over the ICE so not sure if it occurs during that or not. A/C is similar. I do plan to take it in to the dealer here in the next couple days for its yearly checkup, oil change, etc. so going to see if I can push them to do a more thorough check this time.

[takingittothemax]

42 minutes ago, cr08 said:

I've basically only ever heard it in EV mode. It's JUST quiet enough that it would be hard to hear over the ICE so not sure if it occurs during that or not. A/C is similar. I do plan to take it in to the dealer here in the next couple days for its yearly checkup, oil change, etc. so going to see if I can push them to do a more thorough check this time.

 

I think my car made a similar sound (and it still does but to lesser degree).

 

Does it sound like what I've attached?

metallic noise(1).wav

[Zathrus]

When my 2013 "grinding" transmission was replaced under warranty (at 47000 miles), the metal grinding noise was so loud that I had to increase radio volume 2-3 clicks when moving greater than 40 mph (and then back down again when stopped). This was with the windows up. Also, the grinding/thumping was cyclical, not continuous (frequency changed with speed).

 

The tech at my dealer test drove the car only 4 blocks before turning around and saying something was wrong. He used "chassis ears" to further isolate level and location of noise to the transmission. He also indicated that the chassis ears where also picking up abnormal noise from front wheel bearings, but level of wheel bearing noise was being drowned out by the noise from the transmission. To be safe, they decided to replaced front wheel bearings along with the transmission.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Zathrus

[takingittothemax]

Do your transmission grinding noise get louder and louder over time, or did it just suddenly appear one day?

[SnowStorm]

Bad transmission noises certainly seem to vary.  Mine was very slight, it would come and go depending on torque applied while staying in EV mode and around 35-40 mph.  It was more of a whirring sound - not a grinding one.  It could have easily been ignored except that I was sure it wasn't there before.  Even then, I went maybe 50k miles before a hole was worn in the housing and I lost fluid like crazy.  I never tried listening for reflected sound through open windows.

 

Push to get it thoroughly checked while you have a warranty!

[cr08]

23 hours ago, takingittothemax said:

 

I think my car made a similar sound (and it still does but to lesser degree).

 

Does it sound like what I've attached?

metallic noise(1).wav 1.7 MB · 5 downloads

 

This sound is actually very close to the one I'm hearing.

 

I am taking her in today to get some other scheduled maintenance done. Also my drivers door handle completely stopped sensing my hand about a year back so gonna see if that's gonna be an involved fix or not. Will definitely be pushing to have them check on this noise and see if I can encourage them to also check on the transmission too to be sure. Just gonna flat out tell them I'm aware of the potential trans issues and want to make sure that's not starting to act up before my warranty runs out.

[takingittothemax]

13 minutes ago, cr08 said:

 

This sound is actually very close to the one I'm hearing.

 

I am taking her in today to get some other scheduled maintenance done. Also my drivers door handle completely stopped sensing my hand about a year back so gonna see if that's gonna be an involved fix or not. Will definitely be pushing to have them check on this noise and see if I can encourage them to also check on the transmission too to be sure. Just gonna flat out tell them I'm aware of the potential trans issues and want to make sure that's not starting to act up before my warranty runs out.

 

Let me know how it goes. I had my car serviced (just an oil change) a while back, but I didn't ask them about the metallic sound because it was winter and I couldn't hear it all with the windows up. In fact, when I've been driving with the windows lately this spring I've barely heard the sound, so it might be something to do with my brakes or wheel alignment (I got the latter fixed when I got new tires fitted).

[cr08]

1 minute ago, takingittothemax said:

 

Let me know how it goes. I had my car serviced (just an oil change) a while back, but I didn't ask them about the metallic sound because it was winter and I couldn't hear it all with the windows up. In fact, when I've been driving with the windows lately this spring I've barely heard the sound, so it might be something to do with my brakes or wheel alignment (I got the latter fixed when I got new tires fitted).

 

That's what I'm hoping it is as well. If it's brakes or a wheel bearing/hub or something I'd be a lot happier about paying that repair bill vs worrying over the transmission issue. So far thankfully I haven't heard a peep of abnormal noise inside the vehicle with windows up. Just normal road noise.

[takingittothemax]

4 hours ago, cr08 said:

 

That's what I'm hoping it is as well. If it's brakes or a wheel bearing/hub or something I'd be a lot happier about paying that repair bill vs worrying over the transmission issue. So far thankfully I haven't heard a peep of abnormal noise inside the vehicle with windows up. Just normal road noise.

 

Fingers crossed for you.

 

When I posted the WAV file initially back in the middle of 2020, @SnowStorm thought it probably wasn't a transmission issue as it could only heard outside the car (or inside with great effort).

[stolenmoment]

My local dealership broke the door-handle sensing when they did the door-latch recall fix.  They corrected it at no cost to me (as they should), so if your door quit working when they fixed the latch, you might be able to get that done for free.  It's been a while, though, so it may be a tough sell.

[cr08]

4 hours ago, stolenmoment said:

My local dealership broke the door-handle sensing when they did the door-latch recall fix.  They corrected it at no cost to me (as they should), so if your door quit working when they fixed the latch, you might be able to get that done for free.  It's been a while, though, so it may be a tough sell.

 

Yeah, mine happened well after that. No other work or changes were made around that time. Just stopped working and on the drivers door only. Sensors work in all the other doors perfectly. I do recall seeing a TSB about just needing to disassemble and clean/use some sealant on the inside of the handle. Didn't bring that up, just mentioned the drivers door being the lone one out that stopped working. So we'll see on that one. Not a HUGE issue so if it's more than that like needing parts replaced I'll likely just leave it as is.

 

No new info otherwise. Car is with the dealer. Seemed they were backed up and would need to keep it which is fine as I work from home and have alternate transportation if needed. Thankfully the service advisor seemed pretty perceptive of everything I noted. Two comments she made that I made a mental note of is she was gonna have a tech drive around the building to try and get the sound to bounce off as I have been dealing with and she also did specifically mention the transmission and the warranty if it came to that. So cautiously optimistic and keeping my fingers crossed.

 

So fare other than this noise cropping up, this car has been rock solid which I've been very happy with especially given it's a 2013. Other than regular maintenance, I had the APIM replaced under warranty and the washer fluid bottle replaced as it developed a crack and a leak at some point. Other than that, no 12V battery issues, minimal HVB (Energi model) degradation. Just recently upgraded to Sync 3. Quite happy and fully intend to drive it until the wheels fall off if possible.

[takingittothemax]

I considered replacing the Sync 2 unit in mine with a salvaged Sync 3, but it just seemed like too much work in the end. How hard was the swap for you?

[cr08]

Was actually a piece of cake. I did get mine pre-programmed for my C-Max however. I think that is honestly the more challenging part if you plan to do it yourself. DanMC85 over on the 2gfusion forums has a service he offers to provide the correct programming necessary if you want to go the full DIY route: Sync 3 Programming (via Email) by DanMc85 Basically it's just adjusting configuration bits to tell the APIM what vehicle and options it has to talk to now.

 

Installation took me less than half an hour, maybe closer to 20 minutes? Granted I have viewed the installation videos a number of times. This is a good video going over the process. It's for the Escape but since the interior is near identical, it's a good analogue: (90) Ford Escape - SYNC 3 Upgrade Installation - YouTube

 

Only thing that is not working out of the gate even with the programming is the automatic parallel parking feature. That's a known issue on older vehicle upgrades. The PAM (Parking Aid Module) needs updated. The actual parking sensors and beeps still work however. In my 4 years of ownership I've never had the option to use the parallel parking feature so it's not a huge loss for me. There's also a very minor issue due to a) mine being an older Sync 3 APIM and b) having updated to a newer 3.4 version, when the headlamps are in auto mode and the ambient light quickly changes and dims the interior lights, the APIM screen flickers when it dims. Some incompatibility with the lighting data sent over the CANbus if I understand things correctly. For me its not really that distracting. This one I don't think there's a fix for short of sticking with one of the earlier Sync 3 updates that still has an auto brightness toggle for Sync itself that can be turned off to avoid it (I think 3.4.19101 is the latest with this?). Newer versions remove it and have auto brightness turned on by default.

 

Other than those it's 100% functional. Even the energy flow display and charge settings are kept. MyFordMobile still works. On screen climate controls disappeared on the latest update but that's a known thing and I just need to flip literally one bit in the AsBuilt data when I get the car back to re-enable it.

Edited April 30, 2021 by cr08

[cr08]

Latest update: Door handle looks like it's gonna have to be replaced and I'm skipping on that since the cost from the dealer quoted is about $500. That's been a VERY minor issue. Worst case I'll try the documented TSB when I get the car back that's essentially removing the handle and cleaning/drying the inside and there's some kind of sealant used too. Seemed like an easy enough DIY job last I looked at it.

 

Noise: So far they haven't been able to replicate/hear it. Service advisor's going to bat for me though and is getting another tech on it to try and figure it out. So I'm happy about that. Sadly that means no real substantial news yet.

[djc]

Can you tell whether noise comes from front or rear? Does the noise vary with speed? 

Disc brakes often make a scraping noise, esp if the disc has had time to rust.  Inspect rotor.  Maybe a test for this possible cause would be to a) coast in neutral, listen carefully to noise.  2) go down a long hill in neutral using the brakes.  This should remove some oxide built-up on the disc.  3) listen again coasting to see if any change to noise.  If yes, suspect brakes.  Maybe then jack car up and spin wheel. 

 

[cr08]

20 hours ago, djc said:

Can you tell whether noise comes from front or rear? Does the noise vary with speed? 

Disc brakes often make a scraping noise, esp if the disc has had time to rust.  Inspect rotor.  Maybe a test for this possible cause would be to a) coast in neutral, listen carefully to noise.  2) go down a long hill in neutral using the brakes.  This should remove some oxide built-up on the disc.  3) listen again coasting to see if any change to noise.  If yes, suspect brakes.  Maybe then jack car up and spin wheel. 

 

 

Can't tell front or rear. Doesn't seem to vary with speed best I can tell but will vary slightly in volume based on load. I'm very aware of the rusting as it is quite obvious in noise after it rains and I'll often kick it into neutral for that exact reason on the first few stops to knock off the rust but there's still a slight grinding noise despite that. Sadly I don't have a jack or the space to really do checks like that myself. Though I think at some point I'm gonna see if I can go to an empty lot and have someone drive the car while I walk along side with my phone to get a clearer recording of my own.

 

I did get my car back and here's the update: Ultimately I had to ride along with a tech to try and replicate it and had to find a good spot in a plaza nearby that I could drive up next to a building and it is noticeable under low speeds too. Was eventually able to point it out to the tech and he basically indicated it was brakes and a normal slight surface scraping even under no use. Not sure HOW much to believe it but the more I hear it the more I am leaning towards it is -some- form of brake related noise. And I do know the front brakes have never been touched in the 4 years/40k miles I've had the car. Just the rears were done, rotors and all. Nothing's been mentioned -yet- on the checkups that the fronts are bad or worn down and braking has been fine.

 

I'm coming to the conclusion that under the assumption that even if the transmission starts to misbehave with the bearing issue it does take quite a while for it to start actually being an issue, I am probably going to be safe. Got 2 years left on my loan, after which I plan to build up a repair/trade-in fund. With my job being work from home for the foreseeable future my average mileage is putting me at only 10k miles over 2 years time (which should put me at 90-95k on the odometer). And at the current market value of these cars I can probably upgrade at that 2 year mark to a newer model for pretty cheap if I chose to do so. But most likely I'll drive this one til the proverbial wheels fall off.

[jmcgliss]

Not to discount what's already been discussed, but one other source of scraping can be a dust shield (aka brake disc backing plate) is bent slightly or not square with the disk.  These can sometimes get bent enough to rub the rotor during a tire rotation, for example.