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EV problems


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43 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 03:23 PM

I just made a trip to Orlando, FL and back using I-75/I-4 FWY and averaged 54 mpg, temps 60-90*F, some A/C and EV 57.5% of the time.  Watch my "How to get great gas mileage in a CMAX YouTube videos: http://fordcmaxhybri...at-gas-mileage/

 

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#22 OFFLINE   Buggs1a

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 04:17 AM

I have already seen your vids. ^^^

I’m getting better. I just drove 22 miles on I-405 north and south in Washington state. Horrific traffic. Worse then city driving. Stop and go for more then half the trip on freeway. I got 49.9 mpg for my trip home. But most of that was way easy since I could only go 5-20 mph and stop a lot. How annoying. On the trip to where I was going it was in the 40 - 45 mpg range. Same stop and go but a bit more driving a bit faster.

So I’m slowly starting to get it. I just wish the battery was a lot bigger to be in electric more.

And acceleration is so incredibly slow if I want to stay in ev mode.

Edited by Buggs1a, 20 April 2018 - 04:19 AM.

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#23 OFFLINE   jestevens

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 05:49 AM

That's great, hybrids love traffic, but yes, a hybrid isn't an actual electric car.  Some of them, like the Energi version of the C-MAX have a bigger battery pack but ultimately you are still using gas, just not all the time and the battery helps even out the load on the engine to make the engine more efficient.  I still love them, relatively smooth, quiet, lots of torque, manufacturer usually loads them up with options to sell at a higher price point (at least when you buy new)..and 40MPG on a routine basis is still double what a typical gasoline powered car would do.


Edited by jestevens, 20 April 2018 - 05:54 AM.

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#24 OFFLINE   stolenmoment

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:46 AM

Yeah, that's why I went with the Energi; my commute is well within electric range.



#25 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:58 AM

That's great, hybrids love traffic, but yes, a hybrid isn't an actual electric car.  Some of them, like the Energi version of the C-MAX have a bigger battery pack but ultimately you are still using gas, just not all the time and the battery helps even out the load on the engine to make the engine more efficient.  I still love them, relatively smooth, quiet, lots of torque, manufacturer usually loads them up with options to sell at a higher price point (at least when you buy new)..and 40MPG on a routine basis is still double what a typical gasoline powered car would do.

I don't quite like the comment 'isn't an actual electric car' on PHEV's. Get too many EV Purists out there who bash PHEV's with this exact reasoning. It really should be seen as a short/mid-range EV with hybrid backup for range. In my case during normal commutes in my Energi I never use any gas during a normal day. In fact Ford has programmed the Energi to run the engine to use stale gas if the engine hasn't been used for I believe a full year. A -YEAR- with no ICE usage!


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#26 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 09:23 PM

... And acceleration is so incredibly slow if I want to stay in ev mode.

Part of it is the transmission. You're used to a car that has 5x the torque when it's stopped and downshifts to first gear. After the first upshift, you still have 4x the torque, down to "only" 3x at the next shift... eventually ending up at 0.8x with a typical overdrive final ratio. Gas engines need a high numerical ratio at rest because they have no torque at rest, requiring a "slip" of some sort (the clutch) to move a stopped car without stalling. 

 

You now have a 1-speed transmission, 2:57:1, effectively nothing but a differential, but with 177 ft lb of EV torque at rest, regardless of engine speed. Then there's the marvelous linkage to an internal combustion engine, and a second motor/generator, that allows the ICE to run any speed, independent of road speed. Those two things make the car completely different to drive. 

 

1) When you floor it, there's no waiting for the tranny to downshift or the engine to rev into the torque band. You get full EV torque right now. The motor is current limited below ~1700 RPM to the maximum 177 ft. lb. rating. EV torque falls at higher RPM, even as ICE torque rises. As you speed up, there's little change in torque. 

 

2) Engine speed no longer depends on vehicle speed. It's more like setting a "power level" because, without upshifts or any loss of torque, a given power level will keep you accelerating until you back off. There's no 5x reduction in torque due to gear ratio changes. Ever find yourself tailgating?

 

Learn to be patient and wait for the car to take off. Surrounding traffic always eager to pass me when we start up, but given space in traffic, I'll normally pass them as part of the normal pulse-and-glide hybrid driving approach. The car loves following the terrain. 

 

HAve fun,

Frank


Edited by fbov, 21 April 2018 - 09:24 PM.

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#27 OFFLINE   Buggs1a

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 10:22 PM

I have another question.
I’m getting a bit better. Even drove from Safeway to my old house for a neighbor. Used no gas. Said 999.9 mpg lol. But once out of parking I turned right and a hundred feet or so was a light. Across the street was all down hill. Three quarters of the way down I turn left into culdesac and his house just a bit on the right. That was awesome.

I-5 here sucks. There’s so many hills and the gas is on a lot off and on. But here’s my question. Why won’t the computer in cruise control know when to be in ev mode? I have to tap the break to go out of cruise then the ev bars come and then I enable cruise again or just my foot. Cruise works going to ev downhill after a climb but the computer just seems stupid.

Edited by Buggs1a, 22 April 2018 - 10:26 PM.


#28 OFFLINE   jestevens

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 05:25 AM

You don't get why I said that a hybrid is not an EV?  How long can you drive the C-MAX on -just- electric?  Is it 50 miles, 100 miles, 200 miles? Because that's "all electric" range you'd get in an electric car.  A hybrid car really is designed to rely on the ICE and it won't operate without it.  Some people buy them thinking they are buying an electric car, that's why Toyota has lots of warnings in their owners manual about "you really do need to fill up the gas tank".  Don't get me wrong, I've been driving hybrid for at least 10 years now and I think the technology is great.  I didn't realize the original poster had an Energi, yes, the battery pack is bigger, you have the option of just plugging it in and you get longer range.


Edited by jestevens, 23 April 2018 - 05:27 AM.


#29 OFFLINE   Buggs1a

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 06:13 AM

That didn’t have anything to do with my last question. But ya I know a hybrid uses gas and a lot of my driving or most is in hybrid and some in ev.
What does EV and HIV or whatever stand for?

#30 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 08:41 AM

I have another question.
I’m getting a bit better. Even drove from Safeway to my old house for a neighbor. Used no gas. Said 999.9 mpg lol. But once out of parking I turned right and a hundred feet or so was a light. Across the street was all down hill. Three quarters of the way down I turn left into culdesac and his house just a bit on the right. That was awesome.

I-5 here sucks. There’s so many hills and the gas is on a lot off and on. But here’s my question. Why won’t the computer in cruise control know when to be in ev mode? I have to tap the break to go out of cruise then the ev bars come and then I enable cruise again or just my foot. Cruise works going to ev downhill after a climb but the computer just seems stupid.

 

I don't fully understand how the cruise control handles EV, though if you go to the Empower screen on your left display, realize that the power demand needs to drop below the blue line that shows where it will go into EV typically. The cruise control does not go into EV as quickly as it would when a human is driving, it typically likes to build more battery charge. There have been times, with me, that the cruise has gotten "stuck" where it isn't going into EV -- though I'm not sure if it has actually been stuck, rather than just not understanding what it is "thinking." Even when it gets "stuck," it typically should eventually go into EV though, like you, I've killed the cruise control and restarted it to get it into EV.

 

Last, I recommend using the Eco Cruise. It doesn't keep the car at as constant a speed, it will slow down or speed up a bit more than normal cruise will, in an attempt to maximize EV and fuel economy.



#31 OFFLINE   jestevens

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:32 AM

The "EV" does stand for "Electric Vehicle" I think, and it CAN go in all electric for short distances as you say with your short drive from the supermarket but the all EV range is limited on the regular hybrid by the small battery pack,  The Energi version of the hybrid has a bigger battery pack, can actually be plugged in to charge the high voltage battery off 220 or 120V AC Outlet and can go for a longer distance on pure electric only but you sacrifice a little cargo room and add cost because of the bigger battery.  I think the Energi also has all electric cabin heat and an electric pump to circulate oil around the transmission since the Energi can go for a longer distance without the engine being run. 

 

The hybrid (non Energi) version of the C-MAX uses engine heat for cabin heat so in a lot of cases if you have the heater on the engine will run.

 

I recommended the "Empower" gauge before but the ones I actually use in MyView are called "Split Power' and "Coach" - The split power gauge will show a small blue tachometer for the range and throttle input where the car is supplying electric power/assist and the white bars on the tachometer when the gas engine is supplying power.  Like ptjones says, white bars under two segments seems to be the optimum RPM range for the engine efficiency. 

 

Personally I just try to accelerate as smoothly/normally as possible until I reach cruising speed and then back off the gas, otherwise it might be a safety hazard or annoyance to other drivers.  I don't get the best MPG by any means because I don't have any MODs on my car, I have a winter climate here and I love the electric torque too much.

 

It may be the hills where you live that are making the car act the way it does, it will try to use the gas engine to provide more power on incline of the hill.  You will probably almost always use gas while driving on the highway but it should still be more economical than a gas (only) car.  Even at it's worst the C-MAX still gets between 1.5 - 2 times better gas mileage than a lot of the other crossovers, the folks here who have mastered driving it and added custom mods can get higher than that.


Edited by jestevens, 23 April 2018 - 10:36 AM.

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#32 OFFLINE   Buggs1a

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 11:24 AM

Thank you so much everyone for conversing with me. This is a great place and I appreciate all of you very much.

Two posters above me. My cruise is like that too. I don’t think it’s smart enough. Because when I tap the break the ev comes out and I can drive in ev. It’s weird. Makes me nervous I’m not in ev when I should be.

I would love to just drive and not worry about ev. But then my gas mileage would probably suck compared to me paying attention to the empower screen.

#33 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 11:58 AM

The "EV" does stand for "Electric Vehicle" I think, and it CAN go in all electric for short distances as you say with your short drive from the supermarket but the all EV range is limited on the regular hybrid by the small battery pack,  The Energi version of the hybrid has a bigger battery pack, can actually be plugged in to charge the high voltage battery off 220 or 120V AC Outlet and can go for a longer distance on pure electric only but you sacrifice a little cargo room and add cost because of the bigger battery.  I think the Energi also has all electric cabin heat and an electric pump to circulate oil around the transmission since the Energi can go for a longer distance without the engine being run. 

 

I apologize if I misconstrued your earlier post. The specific wording sounded like you had lumped the Energi in with the hybrids as far as any 'EV capability'. Seems like we rather may be on the same page.

 

As you indicated in this quoted paragraph you are pretty much spot on. Ford actually made some good design choices in adding extra parts to the Energi that the hybrid doesn't have in order to further assist it being viable running in EV only mode for extended periods. This does include the extra electric oil pump for the transmission and also full electric cabin heat. There are a few current PHEV's on the road that actually don't have the luxury of electric cabin heat and require engine operation for that which is a major downside IMHO. With my Energi I can easily drive in EV even in the dead of winter with cabin heat. Range suffers greatly, but it is capable. The only caveat is at a certain point the ambient temp to requested cabin temp differential is great enough that it decides it can't do so in EV and will force the ICE to kick in. But usually that is when it gets into the teens or below outside.

 

As for the cruise comments, I'm in agreement and I think it is pretty much a dumb system outside of the Eco Cruise option which also seems pretty simple in operation in itself. And of course the relatively simplistic thresholds of when the C-Max decides to switch in and out of EV (which in some cases is a good thing, others it is annoying) will exacerbate that a bit. Some people may find it better to 'nudge' the car a bit into a given mode depending on the driving scenario.


Edited by cr08, 23 April 2018 - 12:01 PM.


#34 OFFLINE   Buggs1a

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 05:46 PM

Is it ok to just leave the car in cruise? I have eco cruise on. Or should I manually drop out of cruise to try to kick in ev? I want to just drive and not babysit the thing trying to get into ev as much as possible. I know I can but at what cost.

#35 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 06:12 PM

Is it ok to just leave the car in cruise? I have eco cruise on. Or should I manually drop out of cruise to try to kick in ev? I want to just drive and not babysit the thing trying to get into ev as much as possible. I know I can but at what cost.

I pretty much never use cruise, I just do it my self, I'm my own ECO Cruise and with 193k mi. it's pretty much automatic for me. :)  If I ever do get too tired, I'll use ECO Cruise.

With 79% HWY driving, I'm averaging 51.6% EV. Thing to remember that means you go 1/2 in ICE then 1/2 mile in EV. :)

 

Paul



#36 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 11:13 PM

Well, I use Eco-Cruise almost constantly (city and highway) and rarely "babysit" EV mode.  Once in a while I'll force EV or ICE mode because I know what's coming whereas the car doesn't.  BTW, the easy way to go into EV while using cruise is to double tap the cancel/resume bar - much easier than using your foot.  I don't think you can gain all that much by babysitting EV mode under most circumstances providing you already are doing the following things as much as possible:

  1. Use ICE to accelerate at about 2 bars
  2. Brake to get at least 90% score
  3. Don't drive fast.
  4. Use heat/AC efficiently.  Use recirculate as much as possible, close unused vents, use moderate temp settings, use seat heaters if available, etc

I agree that the cruise seems to get "stuck" at times but I'm sure its just the algorithm - and I think its pretty good considering that the car doesn't know what the road is doing up ahead and has several conflicting requirements to balance.  I have frequently driven on 55 mph flat roads where the cruise will keep the ICE on "forever" with the power bar just above the EV threshold.  You can tap-tap cancel/resume and force EV mode but it doesn't seem to make much (or any) difference in mileage.



#37 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 09:56 AM

Well, I use Eco-Cruise almost constantly (city and highway) and rarely "babysit" EV mode.  Once in a while I'll force EV or ICE mode because I know what's coming whereas the car doesn't.  BTW, the easy way to go into EV while using cruise is to double tap the cancel/resume bar - much easier than using your foot.  I don't think you can gain all that much by babysitting EV mode under most circumstances providing you already are doing the following things as much as possible:

  1. Use ICE to accelerate at about 2 bars
  2. Brake to get at least 90% score
  3. Don't drive fast.
  4. Use heat/AC efficiently.  Use recirculate as much as possible, close unused vents, use moderate temp settings, use seat heaters if available, etc

I agree that the cruise seems to get "stuck" at times but I'm sure its just the algorithm - and I think its pretty good considering that the car doesn't know what the road is doing up ahead and has several conflicting requirements to balance.  I have frequently driven on 55 mph flat roads where the cruise will keep the ICE on "forever" with the power bar just above the EV threshold.  You can tap-tap cancel/resume and force EV mode but it doesn't seem to make much (or any) difference in mileage.

 

I'll agree with this and add, even though it doesn't go into EV mode it will still use the electric motor -- which is why fuel economy works out the same. Instead of EV mode, it will go into hybrid mode, with the electric motor aiding the gas engine -- I'm guessing the algorithm the cruise control uses shows that hybrid mode, in those circumstances, allows the ICE to run more efficiently, and keeping the battery charge relatively stable, than going full EV and draining the battery, then needing to increase ICE RPMs to recharge the battery.



#38 OFFLINE   Buggs1a

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 10:35 PM

Thanks all for being part of this discussion.

I’m getting better. I love so much for coming home from Safeway I use no gas. It’s so awesome. And I love some trips have been 85 MPG or 55.5 MPG etc. in the 40s though mostly. It’s a bummer that when I go to my parents it’s got a few big hills. So I get around 35-37 MPG. It varies though. Sometimes I’ll get 40 or so. Other times 37 or so.

In the Empower screen it says 43 mpg avg. is that for the tank? Does the car know when you fill it up and reset that?

Is there a way to reset avg mpg for since I got the car and not the entire life of the car? How could I keep track from when I got it?
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#39 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 03:01 PM

Thanks all for being part of this discussion.

I’m getting better. I love so much for coming home from Safeway I use no gas. It’s so awesome. And I love some trips have been 85 MPG or 55.5 MPG etc. in the 40s though mostly. It’s a bummer that when I go to my parents it’s got a few big hills. So I get around 35-37 MPG. It varies though. Sometimes I’ll get 40 or so. Other times 37 or so.

In the Empower screen it says 43 mpg avg. is that for the tank? Does the car know when you fill it up and reset that?

Is there a way to reset avg mpg for since I got the car and not the entire life of the car? How could I keep track from when I got it?

 

The Empower MPG number does not reset except for manually, to reset it press down on the "OK" button on the left side of the steering wheel and, after a few seconds, it will reset. The screen will show you when it is reset, it takes about five seconds. You can also reset the lifetime average; it is reset in the settings menu on the left side display, then select Display, then Lifetime Summary. 


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#40 OFFLINE   Buggs1a

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:55 AM

Hi all. I’m just popping in to give a quick update and ask a couple questions.

Why does my car power steering not work sometimes when power on? The first time this happened a couple three weeks ago the car powered on then said have power steering serviced. Extremely hard to turn wheel. I shut car down. Power on again and it’s fine. This happened again tonight but without the check power steering message. Power car off then on and it worked.

How do I get my car to stop the service mobility tire message every time I power the car on? I’m never going to use it. So I couldn’t care less and it drives me bonkers having to hit ok every single time I power the car on. This just started within last couple days or even today.

And an update on my MPG. Well I reset my lifetime summary about 3 weeks or slightly less after I bought my cmax. I have filled it twice only and that was since sometime in April maybe. The Empower screen shows 44.8 avg MPG. Is that from when I got gas the last time since I reset the trip meter thing or is that since I reset the lifetime summary? And is that pretty good?

Tonight I just got home from Enumclaw Washington. I live in Burien Wa. Takes about 55-60 minutes. About half off freeway and then half on I-5 north when going home. Tonight when I got home it said 52 MPG. I’m getting numbers much much better then you guys could remember when I first got it and started asking some questions in here.

I’m using cruise more and notice it seems to do an ok job now. I have a question. When cruise is on, a lot of times the screen shows Charging Battery. While I’m driving. Sometimes it says Hybrid. Which is better? Better mileage? Of course it runs in EV a lot to and I know that’s off the battery.

Anyway. Thank you all so very much for everything and being kind and gentle with me. I truly appreciate all of you so so much.

Joe






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