plus 3 golfer

Issue in summer sounds like clogged evaporator core drain.  Do you use MAX Defrost to clear windows in colder weather or turn A/C on in cooler temps to remove humidity?  In MAX Defrost, AC will operate if outside air is above about 35.6 F. Do you have a panoramic roof?  It's simply held in place with a sealant.  Perhaps sealant is damaged.  My guess is, if panoramic roof leaked, water would be channeled to the pillars much like rear window washer hose leak.

Great then you should have the electrical location diagrams in the wiring manual to find the connectors listed in the SSM.  Hopefully you can get to them without removing too much stuff. 

Ok, I think I posted about connectors prior in the area of the grille shutters and water pump as the two are near each other.  IIRC, there may be a TSB about water intrusion in these connectors.  When I get back later in day, I’ll look at manual.  I believe the SM will say to correct the cause of comm. errors first.  Found SSM.

OK, look at the operations of the Engine Coolant Pump in the attached document starting on page 105.  You will see the two DTCs further in that section of the pdf.  It looks like the issue might be with the Engine Coolant Pump not the Cabin Coolant Heater Pump. Note that there is an Emergency Run Input line directly to the PCM should the communication over the LIN fails.  Are you getting any communication failure DTCs?   If you are comfortable with troubleshooting (or just want to learn more), you should buy the Service Manual on  Ebay.  It has wiring diagrams and diagnostics like checking circuits for grounds, resistance of the pump and so forth for the DTCs.  The link below is similar to the SM I purchased many years ago for around $12.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-C-Max-2013-2014-Factory-Workshop-Service-Repair-Manual-on-CD/303808654310?hash=item46bc682be6:g:d50AAOSwdnNdu4HJ

OBDSM1700_HEV.pdf

SA or Tech is confused and they likely can not convert from mA to Amps.

From the C-Max Service Manual:

"NOTE: No factory-equipped vehicle should have more than a 50 mA (0.050 amp) draw. Check for current drains on the battery in excess of 50 mA (0.050 amp) with all the electrical accessories off and the vehicle at rest for at least 40 minutes. Current drains can be tested with the following procedure."

I believe a typical draw should be around 30 mA on average after all modules go to sleep.  If ones SOC is low from normal battery aging, ones Ah rating might be only 10 Ah.  Even at 10 Ah capacity, a 30 mA drain gives 333 hours until 0% SOC (around 10.5 V being defined as 0% SOC) and we know C-Max will start at 0% SOC.  Again based on your voltage readings and the discharge curve above, I believe your draw was at least 360 mA.  My guess is the SA meant they observed a 500 mA  and in not knowing how to convert to Amps said 1/5000 A drain and in reading his literature on typical drain of around 30 mA was converted to 1/3000 A. 

How did you wire the after market backup camera in?  The backup camera is only energized when the accessory relay contact closes and +12V via F31 in the Rear Junction Box (behind left side panel on rear wall powers the back up camera. So, when car is off, there is no power to the backup camera.  My guess either the accessory relay is bad or Tech pulled wrong fuse.  Camera should not drain battery when car is off.  

9 hours ago, 13max said:

Hi All,

 

I had for the first time my 12 volt battery go dead, or actually the car went to deep sleep mode to protect the battery. 

Events that lead up to my 2013 Cmax energi battery problems was once the onset of colder weather started and when I used heated seats and heater going up hill under load in EV mode the wrench light would come on. When I got home, parked the car usually a couple hours later the battery would be discharged down to 8 v. After a couple of weeks of Jumping with my little pack I had a few days off to do some diagnosis....I found it odd that each time I turned the car off, let it sit, Battery drained to 8 v, used jump pack and restarted, the wrench light disappeared until I used heat or the EV button......at which point the wrench light would reappear. I knew there had to be a parasitic draw somewhere but could not figure it out.......until....I dropped my keys as I walked in front of the car, bent down to pick them up and that is when I heard a whirling noise.....I didnt know what it was but it sounded like when I preheat the car, it was the same noise.....Anyways.....I pulled the fuse for the Heater controls, waited 5 minutes to re-insert and VOILA, that solved my parasitic drain! 

Place your ear just above your front plate and listen for any electrical noise....this may or may not be the issue but its worth a shot!

 

You are likely hearing the cabin coolant heater pump running which is only used on the Energi model and such is not installed on the Hybrid.  There are many DTCs for this pump and coolant / heater circuit. If it happens again, you need to read the DTCs.  

On 12/22/2020 at 6:13 PM, METROMAN said:

Update. Back at dealer. Went out it check it yesterday morning, dead as a hammer. 7.59 volts. Called the service manager directly. He asked if I could drop it off for a few days again. Said his gut feeling is another bad battery. Sure, no problem, says I. I've got 3 other vehicles. Guess I'll hear something after new years. 

Seriously thinking of unloading it and finding a 2018 Titanium coming off lease.

Will post another update, when there's something to post.

Where do yo live? IIRC, eastern US?  One other thought is that there were connector issues up front not sealing and water intrusion would cause battery drain.  Was the car driven in rain, wet roads in the last 5 days?  I don’t recall the TSB related to this but dealer should check these connectors.

On 12/20/2020 at 10:35 AM, Wojo said:

I have a ‘14 C-max Energi and test drove a TESLA Model Y last week... It was a very good dealer experience.  At a 325 mile range, a mid 40’s sticker price, and being 100% solar at my home, I think the Model Y is my next (and last) vehicle purchase.....

325 mile range? Not on interstate and freeways here! “On our 75-mph 200-mile highway test route, the Y achieves a real-world range of 220 miles” - Car & Driver.   I would not buy any car if I had to fill up every 200 miles on a trip let alone an EV (charging station unavailability when needed and wasted time).  

I have installed solar on 2 homes in AZ and looked hard at the economics of increasing size of PV system to accommodate charging an EV.  The economics simply don’t work for me when most of miles put on vehicles are trip miles, our daily and weekly driving miles varies significantly, hybrids are available with very good fuel economy, and cost of EV compared to hybrids are significantly higher.  The Tesla battery is 75 kWh.  In sunny Phoenix, a 5 kW system produces about 8800 kWh per year with highest generation in May June and lowest in Dec.  Factoring in the utility rate tariffs (including lower off peak rates), one has a virtually impossible job as to sizing of additional PV, timing of charging, and use of EV to make it economical to increase PV size very much for EV charging during the peak PV hours.  

16 hours ago, METROMAN said:

Repair order says BCE module reprogram. Reprogrammed all modules, 5 total. 

Performed battery and electrical draw test. Charge battery/text good  Draw test ok  Drops to .05 amps

No additional info on order.  Hopefully it will be ok now. Guess I'll start checking the voltage daily and see if it starts dropping again.

 

 

Well it’s good news that dealer “finally” did the right thing.  AFAIK, there is no BCE module but likely the Battery Energy Control Module for the HVB. I’ve attached CSP 15B04 (which shows the list of modules to be reprogrammed) as reference for others who may find this thread and have dead 12V battery issues. 
 

The CSP is very clear as what dealer was suppose to do if vehicle was brought in for any service  prior to expiration of CSP.

SOLD VEHICLES

 Owners  of  affected  vehicles will  be  directed  to dealers  for  repairs.

 Immediately  contact  any  of  your  affected  customers  whose vehicles are not  on  your  VIN  list but  are  identified  in OASIS.    Give the  customer  a copy  of  the  Owner  Notification Letter  (when available)  and schedule a  service date.  
 Correct  other  affected  vehicles identified  in OASIS  which are brought  to your  dealership.”

R15B04-All.pdf

I think we should be guessing how much insurance company’s initial offer will be to buy your car.  As fbov says, IMO, it’s totaled.  You need to look at your state law as to what constitutes an “unrepairable vehicle” and if there are any rules defining an unrepairable vehicle.  You might want to buy it from insurance company at salvage value, get a shop to fix it,  and what has to be done to get it titled again.

Insurance company will offer their estimate of actual cash value.  You need to be prepared to counter and support with data. Based on a quick review of 2013 / 14 C-Maxes in Phoenix area adjusting for miles and sale price discounted about 10% ($7500 seems to be about average retail), my guess is their offer will be around $5000 (assuming your car is in average condition).  Also, trade in value is around $4400.

3 hours ago, Degrandbob said:

I have to say....driving at night on the freeway and following a newer Durango or Dodge Charger is challenging to the eyes. Those full width taillights are quite excessive and penetrating....in my opinion! Hey, maybe it's my aging years!?

Hum, have you had eyes checked for cataracts?  Before my surgery, bright lights at night were problematic and challenging to seeing.
 

 It’s hard to believe the improvement before and after.  I did a lot of night driving on the 2/3 long trips we took every year.  Although my cataracts were not very bad relative to those who generally get the procedure, my ophthalmologist said OTR truck drivers have it done a lot sooner than I did.

Please tell us what the codes were / are and what parts were replaced.  I’ll look in SM later in day.

We have been aware of the issue (14B07) since early 2014.  I have 134 k miles on my 2013.  I will likely drive mine until it fails as the trade in value is only around $3k. Eventually the transfer shaft will bore a hole in the transmission housing and fluid will leak out. 
 

Your least cost option is to get a later MY, low miles,  salvaged transmission and an independent shop to install. Total cost should be less than 1/2 the Ford price - maybe  as low as $3k.   Several members have done it.  Search under members SnowStorm and stratosurfer. SS posted pics of the damaged transmission.

1) What “battery tender” do you have? The Ah rating of a new Ford battery is 43Ah.  So, most would say in the bulk charge mode, you want the constant charging current to be no less than 10% of the 43 Ah, say 5A and no more than 25% or say 10 A.  The bulk charge state should charge the battery to at least 70% (30 Ah) to no more than 80% (34 Ah) State of Charge.  So, bulk charge time will likely be between 3 hours and 7 hours for a completely discharged battery.  The remaining 20-30% charge to reach full charge would be in the absorption state of the charger.  This usually takes 2 to 3 times as long.  So, for a 10 A charger, charge time should be around 10 - 12 hours. For a 5 A charger, the charge time will likely be 18 - 24 hours.

2) A full charged battery with no load on it after resting for 24 hours is 12.6 V for a flooded battery which I assume the Ford battery is.  Since you read 12.74 V, there was surface charge on the battery which will be quickly depleted by the load on the battery.

3) Since the battery was connected to load when you measured voltage under hood, the chart below is a better representation of the SOC of the battery. Just opening hood (opening door) puts a several Amp load on battery.  My battery voltage is 12.35 V under hood and my 12 V battery SOC is 47%.  Based on my current reading, I would recommend using the c/20 curve in the chart below to measure your SOC as the C/20 curve matches my readings.

4) So, using your 2 voltage reading and the C/20 curve below, it appears your SOC dropped about 20% in 1 day (assume 24 hours) or 8.6 Ah in 24 hours which would be a drain of about 360 mA.  Normal drain should be less than 50 mA. Your drain is likely 7-10 times normal.

5) I assume dealer (for $295) checked the wiring noted in several recalls for causing battery drain.  We know that the APIM and certain associated modules have caused battery drain.  I would try pulling fuse 79 in fuse panel under glove box and leave out while you monitor battery drain over 24 hours. Then put fuse back in and monitor. Post your results.

4 hours ago, djc said:

Instructions courtesy Ikea....

LOL,  one image is worth 1000 words...  

Many years ago I put an IKEA corner desk with drawers and “attached” hutch together.   About 1 1/2 hours into assembly I realized I installed  a piece wrong.  Tore it back apart and reassembled. It actually looked very nice.  But, now the worst part:  2 years later we were moving so I decided to sell it.  After several attempts to get it out of the bedroom and recognizing it wouldn’t fit through door opening without disassembling it, I took a hammer to it and threw it in the trash.  There was no way if I spent hours disassembling it anyone would have got it back together especially since I threw the instructions away.

The short answer is you need FORScan for Windows extended license version to do PATS.  
 

However, since you don’t have 2 working keys and since the one key you have may not work,  I’m fairly certain you will have to access / login to Ford.  You can purchase a short term subscription at a reasonable price.  Call a locksmith as most should be able to help which might be cheaper than

There are several PATS PIDs in the BdyCM which you can monitor with FORScan and may indicate if issue with key.  Also, the left hand display shows how many admin keys and my keys are programmed.
 

5 hours ago, fbov said:

On paper, that's true. But at 10K miles today, it's unlikely they'll see a failure in the next 1.5 years unless they drive an awful lot. ...

Correct, which is why one should factor in say 0 - $3500 into the purchase cost for a potential transmission replacement on the 2014 (depending on one’s risk tolerance).    We don’t know the cost difference (17 vs 14) but It wouldn’t surprise me if the difference in price is minimal.  And, most  buyer will likely not know of the potential need for transmission replacement, thus pay too much for the 2014, and then will not be happy when dealer tells them it’s around $8000 should they have a failure after 1.5 years.
 

First, the unique hybrid components warranty which covers transmission is 8 years, 100k miles.  So, you have over 1.5 years of coverage remaining on the 2014.  Second, several members, whose transmission failed out of warranty, replaced their transmission with a self-sourced salvaged transmission from a post 2015 transmission for somewhere around $2500 - $3500 (Search forum).  On, the 2017 you would have likely 40 k miles left on the warranty.
 

Also, note that the 2014 has Ford Sync 2 while the 2017 has Sync 3.  Some hate Sync 2 so much that they have spent $$$ upgrading to Sync 3. Do your research on differences.

Lastly, since I don’t know your risk tolerance, cost of both cars, your annual mileage, how long you keep cars, and so forth, I can not tell you “which option would be best” for you.  What I can say is that at 134k miles, I have done nothing to my 2013 SEL but for normal routine maintenance. It’s one of the best cars I have owned. 

Evaporative coolant loss and water permeating hose walls is normal .  Ford topped mine up several times in the numerous times I took my car in for recalls. Last time I recall me topping mine up was when I changed spark plugs at around 105k miles.  I just checked both coolant levels and at 134 k miles both levels were down to minimum.  So, I got out my 50/50 coolant jug and topped off.  

A quick internet search indicates normal coolant loss can be as much as 1 inch per year (which is close to the distance between min and max on the expansion tank). I changed plugs about 3 years ago.  So, it looks like I might lose about 1/3 inch per year or perhaps 1 inch per 30 k miles in hot AZ climate.
 

I looked at the service manual and Dealer followed procedure which recommends replacing  BECM at step 3 in troubleshooting procedures, if POB24 still exists.  The remaining 5 steps are checks on charging HVB, HVB cell variation, check cell balance circuit, and the last two involve shutting car off for 24 hours twice and check cell variation and check for return of code.  If code still there, replace HVB.

The issue is that Ford does not offer HVB rebuilds.  Maybe call the company in the first link (search for closer one in Colorado) and get the scoop on rebuilding.  Then perhaps negotiate with Ford on rebuild cost.  I would not want my car at dealer with HVB removed and held hostage as to repair cost or a new battery cost. 

So are you saying  your Energi was past the 8 year / 100k miles unique hybrid components warranty as the Battery Control Module and HVB would be a covered item when you had Ford look at it?  
 

There are places which rebuild HVB.  Here’s a link. https://hybridbatteryrepairsandiego.com/ford-product.html

Also, you should be able to get a used HVB from a salvage yard. Here’s one on EBay from a Fusion which should work.

 https://www.embay.com/itm/Battery-Energi-SE-Plug-In-From-09-12-13-Fits-14-FUSION-1644965/293857579338?hash=item446b46d14a:g:VkcAAOSwe3Nfv6-r

Here’s another document that should also help in maintaining your C-Max.  It’s for MY 2017.  There is also one for MY 2013 but this one should have any software updates to MY 2013 which might affect OBD System Operations.OBDSM1700_HEV.pdf

Do you have two keys and tried both? I don’t know what happens in a keyed ignition when “bad” key or a PATS transceiver is bad when trying to start car - for example dash may still light up when key is turned.  With PB start if “key” is not detected,  the dash does not light up when you push the PB to start. A message pops up saying “key not detected”.  

Did you clear codes with FORScan and try again and get the same codes each time? 
 

https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/ford-pats-antitheft-system/