plus 3 golfer

What a monotony - owning / driving an "ordinary" vehicle. ;) There is something appealing about taking chances on new technology. "Take these chances Place them in a box until a quieter time Lights down, you up and die" - Dave Matthews (Ants Marching)

My first diesel was purchased new in Dec. 1976. I've owned diesels but for about 8 years since then (including the last 2 3/4 years :) ). I sold perfectly good diesels at 250 - 275 k miles. Just got tired of them after 10 - 12 years. Timing belt replacement on 2009 Tdi is at 120 k miles. My guess is most C-Max owners won't keep their C-Max beyond 120 k miles. My post is only to show what I spent. There's no way to assess what the price adder is of the built in 3 year free maintenance. It certainly won't be anywhere near what one would pay a dealer to do it. The point though is if one can DIY, the maintenance costs are not that bad on a diesel up to 120 k miles. One of the reasons I got rid of my TDI was prospective maintenance and failures. Timing belt replacement was only a minor consideration (maybe a $700 expense every 120 k miles). The biggie is the HPFP (I had a failure at 44k miles covered under warranty). It would conservatively be $6-8 k to replace all components "touched" by fuel injection system. VW was virtually replacing all failures (even failures for mis-fueling) at no cost after the power train warranty expired . But recently after NHTSA said that they could find no evidence that failing HPFP were a safety concern (engine quits at highway speed), VW issued an extended warranty to IIRC 120 k miles on the HPFP if a fuel sample indicated no fuel contamination (IIRC MY 2009 - 2013?). The issue though is what happens after 120 k miles or if fuel contamination is found before 120 k miles. When I analyzed the data VW provided to NHTSA, the failure rate of 2009 MY was near 1% a year per year of ownership. 2micron sells kit(s) to contain the HPFP debris and with the kit only require replacement of HPFP and filters. So, one can hedge the $ 6 k plus costs of a HPFP for IIRC around $600 for the kit. But the chances of another HPFP increases each year. A HPFP replacement after installation of the kit will likely be less than $2 k. Since we take several long trips a year (4-5 k each round trip), I deemed my 2009 TDi as an unreliable vehicle for long trips and hence traded it for the C-Max. I had no confidence in NHTSA finding a safety issue when I traded it (and of course they didn't find a safety defect). The other big ticket item on newer diesels is the DPF which likely has a life of around 150 - 200 k miles. We can also name potential big ticket items on the C-Max. :) We are comparing two cars (hybrid vs diesel) which cost significantly more and are more complex than a comparable gas vehicle. I always question whether it's worth spending $ upfront for fuel efficiency. Will the savings from the fuel efficiency of a diesel or hybrid pay for the higher upfront costs and potentially higher maintenance / repair costs? My guess is the gas vehicle wins hands down. Fuel is just too cheap to reap big dollars in fuel savings from fuel efficient vehicles.

DIY :) Different engine than 2009 and I believe transmission but likely similar maintenance and maintenance schedule. The 40k maintenance service on my 2009 TDI was done for a total cost of around $200+ which included - all filters - oil, fuel, cabin, air (didn't really need changed), and DSG filters; all fluids - motor oil (likely $10 per liter * 5) and DSG transmission fluid (likely $17+ per liter * 5 liters); and a few tools - a FloTool Measu-Funnel from WalMart ($5); flexible clear tubing ($5) and a couple of larger hex wrenches ($15 or so). Of course, I have other common tools used when doing such auto maintenance. The dealer at the 40k maintenance will do the above service and also inspect such items as brakes, tires, battery, suspension, steering and so forth and generally charge $600 - $900. Routine maintenance prior to the 40k service was included by VW with the purchase and done by the dealer. No extra ordinary maintenance was required on my TDI at 40k miles nor when I traded it for the C-Max at just under 80 k miles (never needed an alignment nor battery replacement). Add 3 more oil change and one fuel filter and I spent around $350 on maintenance in just under 80 k miles. At 40 k on my C-Max, I've spent about $160 on DIY scheduled maintenance - $120 for four oil changes and around $40 for two cabin filters and one air filter. Plus I needed an alignment by the dealer - around $125 at 27 k miles and a new battery at 47 k miles at 2 1/2 years ownership for about $135 at dealer (B2B warranty expired at 36 k miles). Total maintenance at 50 k miles is now up to $450 on my C-Max. So, which car is cheaper to maintain???

These batteries will likely not prevent the no start issue associated with the battery drain on certain C-Maxes as the RC and Ah ratings of such batteries are likely significantly less than the OE Motorcraft BXT-67R. Note: "Sensing and control for the auto shutdown and wake up process (eg preventing a dead battery) is working on the bench for our primary test car, but still needs to be integrated to the rest of the design and tested on more cars." - C-Max is not like most cars as Paul indicated. IMO, get the Ah rating up by a factor of 5-10 X and perhaps the battery will be able to withstand the C-Max parasitic drain so that the C-Max will start the next morning after shutdown the previous day. ;) Of course this would only mask the dead battery issue. Hopefully, the latest reprogramming update by Ford has fixed the issue.

IMO, no. Paying $3 k for an additional 25 k miles of coverage for unlikely events is theft. :) But if one can't "sleep at night" worrying about potential high expenditures (has a low risk tolerance), an extended warranty may be the answer. "Your vehicle’s unique hybrid / electric components are covered during the Hybrid / Electric Unique Component Coverage, which lasts for eight years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first. • The following hybrid parts are covered during this extended coverage period: high-voltage battery, hybrid continuously variable transmission, Inverter System Controller (ISC), DC/DC converter, high-voltage battery connector, battery pack fan assembly, thermistor probe, Hybrid Battery Pack Sensor Module (HBPSM), Battery Energy Control Module (BECM), and the PHEV onboard charger." See the Key Life Tests. This may help you decide. ;) Can't compare Prius nickel-hydride HVB with C-Max Li-on HVB. "Ford's confidence in lithium-ion is based on so-called Key Life Tests. The tests predict that the working capacity (y-axis) of lithium-ion batteries (green line) will be greater over a high-mileage lifetime (x-axis) than that of nickel-metal hydride (yellow line). Past field data for nickel-metal hydride (blue dots) has shown that the testing results are conservative -- that is, batteries generally do better in the field than they do on tests." (Source: Ford Motor Co.)

Here's another graph showing grille shutter operation. I hope this clears up how the shutters operate when AC is ON and when AC is OFF. As I look at more data streams and if I find anything interesting, I will graph it. Note that this graph is with ambient temperature around 82 F. I believe this operation is indicative of grille shutter operations at lower and higher ambient temps. I have recorded operation as low as 68 F ambient and as high as 106 F (IIRC). I should also note that there are no grille covers on. I should also note that somewhere around 212 - 214 ECT, the grille shutters are fully open but the shutters can be partially open at ECT temps below 212 F (note graph). As I've said before, FORscan currently does not support data streaming across modules. Thus, I can not record TFT at the same time as grille shutter operation. But I can say that the highest I've recently observed was 180 F when ECT was over 212 F. Again, when regenerating (not just coasting) but moderately hard braking or using hill assist down steeper grades, I again observed motor coil temps rising about 7 F very quickly and TFT rising about 4 F but delayed. I have this data recorded and may sometime get to it. I have yet to see any abnormal behavior with TFT. In general, TFT are stable and seem to be more dependent on ambient temperature. Again, I am not using grille covers.

I reported some observations in March in a post of testing I did (my example above was illustrative not what I ever observed). When I applied the brakes to increase regen braking, ICE is off and motor coil temperature began to increase immediately up about 10+ F at stop depending on initial speed (more heat losses to dissipate coming to a stop from higher speed). TFT lagged coil temperature rise by several seconds and increased maybe up to 7 F. IIRC, ECT increased also likely because there would be less air flow through the radiator when slowing and the heat still stored in ICE was being dissipated. Knowing what I know now about grille shutter operations , the shutters in my testing were likely opening more as speed was decreasing to allow more air flow to maintain ECT and limit its rise. I don't use Torque Pro any more. I use FORScan. When (if) FORScan allows recording PIDs from more than one module at a time, we can get a better picture of what is happening under normal operating conditions (no grille covers). I don't know the PIDs to input into Torque Pro for grille shutter operation (and perhaps other relevant data),

Any time the engine turns the internal TF pump runs. During regenerative braking ICE is not turning and TFT rises quickly in the Hybrid due to the heat generated by MG1 motor losses. You can see the rise just in normal braking. The hybrid and Energi have the same transmission except for the final drive and the external electric TF auxiliary pump on the Energi. So, how much might the TF rise in temperature when ICE is not turning? If one assume 90% efficiency of MG1 and say 0.4 kWh of regeneration during normal braking (or going down hill) to the HVB, MG2 heat losses are 0.044 kWh or 44 Wh. Assume the TF has a specific heat value of 0.44 BTU/PoundoF and assume the 5.71 quarts of TF weighs about 10 pounds. Then, (3412 BTU / kWh) * (0.044 kWh) / (0.44 BTU/Pound) / 10 pounds = oF (Change in Temperature) = 34.12 oF . There will be some dissipation of heat during the time of regenerative braking so TFT likely won't rise 34 oF, but one can see that TFT can rise considerably due to regenerative braking. Now assume the Energi is going down a step hill and regenerates 10 times the Hybrid example (obviously over a longer time period), Even though there would be some heat dissipation over the longer time period, one can see why the Energi needs an auxiliary electric TF pump. There's a lot of heat losses to dissipate and TFT likely would rise too high without the auxiliary pump. The same logic would apply to MG1. (I think my math is OK) :) Edit: inadvertently reversed MG1 and MG2. MG1 is the generator and MG2 is the traction motor used during regenerative braking.

Probably testing a device like this. :) Car makers came up with "rolling code" after thieves figured out how to wirelessly steal codes from early keyless devices. The system works by changing the passkey every time you use a fob, preventing it from being used a second time. In theory, that makes any stolen code useless to an attacker. As with many of his hacks, Kamkar's workaround is simple yet ingenious. Rolljam blocks the remote signal from reaching the vehicle with a pair of radios, then uses a third one to record the wireless code. Naturally, the mark will try to use the fob again, and once again, Rolljam will jam the signal and steal the second code. But this time, Kamkar's device will re-transmit the first code and unlock the car, so the victim thinks everything's alright. Since your vehicle didn't receive the second code, however, it can now be used by a thieves to steal your car anytime they want. If the device is placed in proximity of a car or garage, it can keep stealing and retransmitting codes, ensuring it always has a fresh, working one.

Grade assist doesn't "run" the engine. It allows the engine to spin (no fuel) to regulate speed when sufficient regenerative braking is not available. Grade assist will not slow you down. The engine may rev very high it the HVB is "full" (sufficient regenerative braking not available). IMO grade assist is not programmed "poorly." When I travel in the mountains of AZ, it maintains speeds very well going down grades whether steep or moderate. If you are familiar with US 60 between Superior and Show Low, there are significant grades especially the descent to the Salt River from both directions. I can use a combination of grade assist, Low gear, and neutral to regulate speed and virtually never have to apply the friction brakes. So, going into a hairpin curve with a speed limit of say 15 miles per hour and one is doing 50 mph using grade assist to hold speed, I shift to low to allow the engine to reduce speed. Assuming no traffic, I am able to time the slow down without using friction brakes, Coming out of the turn, I can shift to neutral to pick up speed and then back to drive to allow grade assist to again maintain speed. IMO, grade assist does what is quoted in Bill-N post very well.

Good point. Most of the time when I use grade assist, regen increases but ICE does not turn. If the battery is not "full", it takes a fairly steep slope and lower speeds for engine braking along with regen so speed does not increase. When the battery is "full", engine braking is virtually full time as there is no other way but friction brakes to control speed.

Virtually, what I see in my Hybrid. The highest TFT I recall seeing was 176 F when ECT was 208 F IIRC. This was seen when going down hill in our Hybrid during regeneration. Since ICE is not running and there is no auxiliary pump on the Hybrid, motor (MG1) losses likely quickly heat the TFT as there is no forced re-circulation of the TF. I assume that the regen energy I captured was likely less than 1/10 of the 3.5 kWh you captured, The heating of my TFT due to regen ceased quickly and hence TFT temperature rise leveled off. Like you, once I reached flatter terrain, TFT and ECT quickly dropped.

The only way to travel. ;) :) I can relate to this on our 30+ hour trips back East. I was in the low 30's mpg on I-20 in SW TX about a month ago with cruise set at about 83-85 mph (GPS speed not VSS which was lower and not speedometer which was higher) into a quartering wind. As I've said before TFT stays about 30+F below ECT which ran between about 185F - 190F. TFT generally runs between 155F -165F. Here's a link to a thread I posted before and the graph of about one hour of data. The higher speed driving starts at about minute 35, The grille shutters appear to be doing the job of keeping TFT and ECT within normal operating ranges. Even as temperatures climbed to over 100 F (not recorded below), grille shutter opening never got above about 60%.

Within the last week, I completed a CR reliability survey on my C-Max. There were a few questions on MFT. So, perhaps the responses will indicate the early issues with MFT are "fixed" or at least mitigated to some extent and the solid black circle rating may improve. :)

Yes, we may not be able to interpret the DTC but it may help others in the future. I would expect that there would be DTCs stored based on your VHR. Make sure the dealer records the DTCs on the service order that the techs found and please post them.

Are you familiar with Engineering Test Mode? I would be curious if there are any DTCs stored.

Sounds like tire noise (maybe wheel bearing noise but I can't remember what it sounds like as it's been probably 30 years since I had a bad wheel bearing). Does it make the noise at all speeds from say 20 mph to freeway speeds? Where is the noise coming from? Front, rear, right, left? If it is tire noise, an alignment, wheel balance, and tire rotation might help quiet it somewhat but generally one needs to replace the tires to get rid of the noise completely. What does electricity sound like? :) Do you mean like static noise? Do you hear the noise with the radio turned off? The C-Max does have an active noise control system that may be an issue. I seem to recall others having issues with it. Active Noise Control Active noise control is an audio system feature that eliminates some of the low frequency engine noise within the passenger compartment typically induced under wide open throttle or heavy part-throttle conditions. The system uses 3 microphones, a DACMC , and the audio system speakers. The DACMC determines the noise frequency to be canceled based upon engine rotation speed data from the PCM and the microphone input signals. While the engine is running, the active noise control microphones located in the front and rear of the headliner monitor the engine noise resonating in the passenger compartment. The microphones transmit this noise as analog signals to the DACMC , where they are converted into digital signals by the integrated analog/digital converter. The digital signals are processed and an inverted phase sound wave with the same amplitude as the original sound is created. This new sound is converted into an analog audio signal and output by the DACMC internal tone generator to all of the speakers.

Just a few comments: Tighter turn radius: The wheel to wheel turning circle isn't the issue. It's the bumper to bumper turning radius which is quite large. Consumer Reports it at 41 feet. When Edmunds tested the car they said: "Although the C-Max's steering feels normal and not artificially electric as in some hybrids, the car feels like it has an exceptionally wide turning radius. We find ourselves doing multipoint turns just to get into the Starbucks drive-thru. When we look up the actual turning circle reported by Ford, we're genuinely surprised to see it's just 35.8 feet, a typical number for a car this size." Quite a difference between 41 feet and Ford's reported 35.6 feet. Smaller gas tank: a seven gallon tank? REALLY??? Evidently you don't travel the freeways at 75+ MPH. You'd be lucky to travel 250 miles between stops.

Here's my post of when I observed shutter operation with a camera over 2 years ago. With AC off ECT is higher. ECT ran between about 195 F and 212 F. As noted in the post, shutters could be closed at 195 F and in various stages of opening up to 212 F. I did not use grille covers in this test. I will shortly run test with AC off at high speeds and record the data. As I've said before I will not use grille covers when I run the AC. Here's my post about my summer 2013 trip and monitoring ECT. I see consistent operation of the grille shutter in this post and the my other linked posts.

When I turn the AC off, the shutter cmd PID immediately drops to 0% to close the shutters. The shutter inferred PID drops to zero in steps and takes seconds to reach zero. I don't recall whether I captured that on my recent trip but next time out I'll cycle AC on and off and record it. When I turn the AC back on, shutter cmd immediately jumps to a point along the curves in the graph. The inferred shutter PID steps up over several seconds to near the shutter cmd PID. In both cases IIRC one can see that ECT has a delayed reaction to whether AC is on or off. ECT goes up with AC off over what it was with AC on and down with AC on o er AC off all other things being the same.

... And your odometer says?:) At what mileage did you first hear the noise? My build date is 11/19/12 "Waiting for something to break" - yep, I know the feeling. At 22 k miles on my 2009 VW TDI, we knew VW had a problem with the HPFP (about $8k at that time to repair), Mine failed at 44k (covered under power train warranty). VW has recently extended the warranty to 120 k miles on the pump (and collateral damage) provided fuel sample shows no gasoline. If Ford has an inherent problem with the early eCVT, we can hope that Ford steps up and extends the warranty on the eCVT well past 100 k miles - say 150k miles and 10 years.