salman

Eric a couple of suggestions: 1) Please call Ford's Customer Care Hotline as well as your dealer (800-392-3673). This will help you and all of us by making sure Ford's corporate office knows there is another dead 12 volt case. 2) Consider having the car towed to the dealer rather than jumped. Just about all of us so far have had the car jumped. Then the car seems to start normally after that (i.e we drive it, shut it, and it can be started again) so the dealers never see the car when it does not work. My suggestion is to call Ford's customer care line and also call the dealer, and ask them both to consult with technical experts. The dealers have a "Hotline" for technical issues. If you can get these people to talk to each other, then they will pull up the records from other cases and I think they ought to agree to pay to have your car towed rather than jumped. Please let us know what happens. Take good notes on everything the dealer tests and tries.

I do not think doors ajar have been an issue in my case. No door ajar signals on the dash, no running lights that don't shut off, etc. However, Ford is recommending checking the rear hatch per TSB 12 12 6 to make sure it is closing properly, and I think it is important to do that to eliminate the possibility. I am still leaning toward the suspicion that the dead 12 volt systems are being caused by some combination of smaller 12 volt batteries and something in the electrical circuitry that is either A) overly sensitive and shuts down due to a drop in current or fluctuation from the 12 volt battery or B) drains power from the battery or, I suppose C) some combination of A & B. It could be a safety switch that is shutting down for a good reason (as opposed to being over-sensitive) and thus protecting circuits from damage. Bottom line is we still do not know what the bug is that has been causing the problems.

Andrew The Ford Customer Care manager I have been dealing with is a guy named Mark Coll. He is the manager or one of the managers for the West Coast, so I think there is a decent chance that you might be talking with him, too. I am in Los Angeles. Who have you been talking to at Ford? My dealer is Buerge Ford in LA. Who is your dealer? Last question: What parts, if any, have they changed out in your car? The 12 volt battery? Anything else? I know you have probably posted this info already. According to Mark Coll, the Ford technical experts are recommending that changing out the 12 volt battery is one of the first things that should be tried in cases of dead 12 volt systems (my battery was swapped out by the dealer). After that, the tech experts are recommending that TSB 12 12 06 be followed to make sure the rear hatch latch is properly aligned to close fully to prevent any intermittent door ajar signals (has not been a problem on my that I have seen, but i will be having this done on Monday). I will be talking to Mark Coll again on Monday and I think I need to try to straighten out what information Ford really has about all these different cases. Since my battery swap after xmas i have not had another dead 12 volt episode, but the other day I had my second episode of all the windows opening by themselves. The first time this happened was a day before my dead battery event in December. So far now it is two days since I found my windows down. Car is still starting as of last night.

Mbedit may I confirm something with you via the forum's messaging system? I've left you a message that you can find by opening your account information.

Andrew Please refresh our memory (and tally) as to how many times you've found your battery and/or 12 volt system dead? Thanks

started to do some research; Ford has had global power down switches on other cars for several years, but at least sometimes they have had problems, In 2005 they discontinued the feature on Mustangs because windows were opening when it was not desired. See this thread: http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/key-fob-window-down.537302/ After 2005, Ford did not return the feature to Mustangs, at least through 2010: http://forums.themustangsource.com/f726/global-open-close-windows-483814/ Reports say that windows opened at odd times for no apparent reason. Maybe they have not fixed the bug? Seems to be used on the Focus and Fusion recently without problems. Hard to know what's gone haywire.

I just had all my windows open by themselves for the second time. The first time was one month ago, a day or two before i found my 12 volt system dead (i.e., battery dead - see those threads). It just happened again today. I do not believe it could have been from me accidentally pressing and holding the unlock button on the key fob. I've never had a problem with any other key fob. My wife's escape has remote start and we've never started it by accident or unlocked the doors by accident. The global power down feature for the C-Max windows requires holding the unlock button for a while. I don't see how this could happen by accident. Anyone else have this happen?

update on my car: No electrical problems since my battery was changed, until today. I looked outside this afternoon and all the car windows were open. This same thing happened in December, a day or two before I experienced a dead 12 volt battery/electrical system. I've called the dealer and the Ford Customer Care manager to log the issue, and now need to plan another service visit to 1) figure out why the windows have gone down twice, 2) maybe disable the global power down feature for the windows, 3) and see if like last time I suddenly have a dead battery. My reading suggests that weird electrical things can happen when a 12 volt battery is on the edge of going out. Also, there is a TSB, # 12 12 06, that calls for adjustment of the rear hatch door. There have been reports of the hatch not always closing and, perhaps, not closing enough to always trip the hatch closed switch. Ford's technical expert told the customer care manager it would be a good idea to have the hatch on my car checked to make sure it is not intermittently sending a door ajar signal that would wake the electrical system and draw juice. I have not seen any door ajar warnings, so I doubt this is a contributing factor in my case, but I will get it checked. The windows powering open all by themselves for the second time is another matter: worrying all by itself for rain and security reasons, but also worrisome in relation to the 12 volt battery failure I experienced in December.

Mbedit Please tell us more about this part of the story if you can get more information:

Mbedit That's a really big development for you and maybe all of us. Here are some thoughts on Ford's proposal: Whether Ford buys back your car or you let them try to fix it, I think they will try to identify the problem plaguing your car either way. On the premise that you still want a C-Max, I think you should ask for a new car in exchange - plus a token sum of money for your trouble and a commitment (best written) from Ford that they will report back to you on what they find wrong with your old C-Max and, naturally, fix any such problem in the new C-Max. The new C-Max would go to you with a new warranty. You'd be covered. If you've had any documented costs that ford is not already covering (like rental costs?), then Ford should pay that, too.

Andrew Wow. that is freaky.

Glad I like the old fashioned key-in-the-ignition set up. Please keep us all posted on the engineer's visit. Should be interesting.

Way back in December I sent an e-mail to Ford via the company website and never received a reply. So I called them via phone, and then called several more times to follow-up until several days later a "Customer Care Manager" called me back. Ignore the e-mail and use the phone, and be persistent.

Jeffrey The dealer gave you a bad explanation and, if I may say so, you should take the matter to Ford's Customer Care phone line and demand better, or at least go back to the dealer and demand better. The 12 volt recharges from a converter that draws off the high voltage Lithium Ion battery. If the car was only used for 1 and 2 mile drives and if current was drawn for accessories when parked, then yes, it could draw down the batteries over a period of many weeks - if everything was as it should be. But drives for 15 - 20 minutes or longer should keep the 12 volt battery reasonably charged. Letting the car sit in a driveway for 4 weeks or longer should not cause battery discharge. If discharge happens in a week because ("because") the car was driven only 40 miles (avg about 5-6 miles per day), then something is wrong and you should insist that something is wrong. Ford does not sell the car with a warning that driving less than 10 or 40 or 100 miles a week will lead to dead batteries. Several posters have had batteries go dead after driving more like 200+ miles per week. Make sure you call Ford Customer Care and make sure the dealer calls the service tech hotline for advice.

Would you please do a quick re-cap of your case? What does Ford think is unique about your case, unlike others with battery problems?

Andrew Here is a thought: Ask the Ford service tech how he tested the battery. Did he just test for voltage charge? Can he test whether the Reserve Capacity (RC) has been damaged? I do not know whether or how that can be tested, but I am pretty sure that a battery can charge to the proper volateg level but not have the RC it is supposed to have. The RC is a measure that helps to determine a battery's ability to supply power over time. If the tech keeps saying the battery is good, then he (and Ford) has to admit that there is another problem (even if he cannot yet identify the problem). Either way, make sure the tech is on the phone with Ford's Hotline for service techs. The dealership will know the Hotline phone number.

Andrewwx Thank you for the details and for keeping Ford central informed, too. Your case sounds like it might have great diagnostic value because of the repeat experience with a new battery and the alarm system. I went back to look at your old posts to see the whole story: It looks like you already had a battery changed because it had a bad cell, but the dead battery issue continued, and now Ford decided (maybe correctly) that the dealer installed alarm system might have been the cause. So the alarm was taken out, but the battery is still dying. I noted, too, that you report what seems to be odd shut down and turn-on of cabin lights and instrumentation. Here are two hunches I have, the first of which is pretty obvious and already on your radar:: 1) There might be another electrical system problem that Ford has not yet tracked down. 2) The replacement battery might be damaged and it could be the case that the alarm system fried two batteries. While I do not think we can rule out other problems in the electrical system (shorts, drains, etc), I am beginning to wonder if the batteries are exceptionally prone to damage from being drained. If the batteries cannot work within an acceptable range of capacity after being drained down once when the batteries are months old, then these are really weak and insufficient batteries in need of replacement with better models. Ford has to be able to explain why the problem has come back.

Jeffrey Read the "battery dead" thread. Although the dead battery mystery afflicting many of us has not yet been conclusively diagnosed, it does seem that 1) 12 volt batteries in many hybrids are small and prone to trouble, 2) that when these 12 volt batteries are drained they lose capacity and thus become higher risk for being drained again, and 3) Ford often replaces the battery. Replacing the battery is something to ask about. But let me add again that no one knows yet whether there are additional contributing problems like bad relays, shorts, power drains, etc, that play a role in our dead battery experiences, nor do we know yet whether there is a manufacturing problem with the batteries. However, there is pretty abundant evidence that the smaller size of 12 volt batteries in hybrids (vs those in gas engine cars) makes the batteries prone to trouble. One reason to get Ford to replace your battery is to identify whether there is another problem in the electrical system or problem with the battery at manufacture, or just a problem with new cars having their batteries depleted while at the dealers lot. None of this is an argument against getting your dealer to swap cars for you, if that is what you want.

KCmax Thanks for filling in the details. If you look at the "dead battery" thread" you'll see there is information posted there about similar problems with other hybrids, which can be found on-line by searching for Prius battery problems, etc. Indeed, hybrid 12 volt batteries are smaller in capacity than those in regular gas engines and thus, it seems, more sensitive, more prone to being drained, and more prone to being damaged when drained. You might want to have your current battery checked after disconnecting the extra module. The battery could have been damaged when it was run down to empty. And you'll want to keep tabs on things to make sure that there are not other problems (i.e, any other battery or electrical problems). We still do not know if there are problems with Ford's batteries or the C-Max circuitry, or just smaller batteries more prone to problems. Your report with the module suggests the C-Max systems are hyper-sensitive when, of course, things ought to be more robust. Please keep careful records and keep us all posted - and Ford, too.

Yes, this is vital information to share. Please let us know.

Bob999 Just my cautious two cents, so take this with a grain of salt: If I were you, I'd bring the car into Ford before doing any more tests, especially load tests, and tell them what you found. See if they can explain the drop from 12.7 to 12 volts just from opening the door. I am assuming you opened the door and then shut it, and then put the meter on the battery. Did you wait long enough for all the lights, etc to go out? It might take a few minutes for all systems awakened by the opened door to shut down.

Bob999 Very odd. Did you take a reading after disconnecting the charger but before opening the door? If you replicate the findings in a 2nd test I'd think it would be interesting to bring the car to Ford and see what they say.

Ted Please read the battery threads under the "Maintenance, TSB, & Recall" heading, and please add your details to those threads, esp the "roll call" thread. In the "Battery Dead" thread you will find the phone number for Ford's corporate Customer Care office (also can be found by searching on the web). Please call them in addition to calling your dealer. It is important that we give information to Ford's central offices ASAP. The dealerships take some time to report problems. In your case, it is very likely that when your 12 volt battery went dead and was jumped that some or many electronic data settings got re-set or scrambled. Even before the jump start, it is not uncommon for strange electrical things to happen when a 12 volt battery gets drained out (windows open, doors unlock, lights come on, etc - sometimes, not always). Good luck. Read the threads, tell the dealer you know this is occurring to others, call Ford, and keep us all posted on what happens. We need the information.

Your experiment will be interesting. If the battery takes a full charge up to 12.6 volts, then I suppose it could be tested at intervals (12 hours, 24 hours, etc) to see at what rate it loses charge. Ford's tech people should have a range for proper discharge over time (all batteries discharge over time plus there is a small discharge to maintain the on board computer, etc). Anything above that would indicate a power draw that is not supposed to be happening. Ford should be doing this sort of test.

Here is a technical question for anyone out there who can offer an explanation: I am not sure that CCA is the most important spec for C-Max battery. CCA is about the maximum output power of a battery. Since the C-Max doe snot need a lot of Amps to turn on (no starter to crank), my hunch is that RC, reserve capacity, might be the more pertinent spec. RC is the amount of time the battery can continue to deliver power. Here is general FAQ on battery specs: http://www.autobatteries.com/faq/index.asp The question remaining is what specs should a C-Max battery meet ( if indeed an under-capacity battery is the cause of our problems)? Similar problems seem to haunt other hybrids, including the Prius and other Ford models