salman

MTB9153 You've been lucky. My build date is, if I recall correctly, Oct 2012. Bought it December 17, 2012, and then had my first window roll down on December 22 and first dead battery on December 23. Currently dead in the shop after bringing it in for another window opening episode. More than 4 tries to solve each problem. First dealer's service department was awful (they did not know how the 12 volt was charged and thought the battery gauge on the dash showed the charge level in the 12 volt battery!).. Switched in April to an excellent service department at another dealer, and they have done everything that one could want them to do. Problem is the engineers can't figure out the problems that the engineers created in designing the car. Other than that, I love the car. Comfortable, great MPG, drives well, wonderful cargo space, and fun when it works. My decision to ask for a buy back after a lmost a year of trying to get the problems fixed is based on 1) the hassle and time spent threshold of so many trips to the dealer, 2) the broader of evidence of widespread reliability problems provided in this forum and the recent Consumer Reports ranking as 4th most unreliable car, 3) the indications that Ford's engineers are still trying to figure out the systems that they built and 4) the clock ticking away on the legal limit for a buy back request and also on the warranty. Now that I've participated in this digression, I hope the thread can focus mainly on practical information on buy back cases.

Sorry, but I had the audio wiring harness replaced and still had the battery die again after a while. Flatbat I think you and Jchadpete are talking about different wiring harnesses. You mention the audio harness. Jchaddpete is refering to the main engine wiring harness. That is what I had changed back in May (I think it was May). I posted a separate thread about water in electrical connectors and details can be found there. You can ID the proper harness by the elecrtrical connector numbers on it (i.e., look up the part numbers) and also by the part cost of about $900). I had not had a dead battery reoccurrance after the wiring harness was changed (now the car is dead for other reasons probably unrelated because while the car was dead the battery was fully charged and the dealer's attempt to jump the car did not start it). But I do think others have reported dead 12 volt problems for which mechanics found no water in connectors and, I think, some reoccurrances in cases in which the main harness was changed. It would take combing through the posts on these threads to find the information.

Bam48 I think the final clue needed was when the good Doctor said that I expected the dealer "to find and fix this little mystery in 1day." Anyone actually reading any of my recent posts would know that I've been having the windows opening problem for almost year and have brought the car to two dealers a total of 5 times about the windows and also more than 4 times for 12 volt problems over that same stretch of time (and posted details about it here 150 times). My take away from that is that Dr. D does not pay much attention to the case history under his nose. Likewise he also completely ignored the history of events leading to the car's current condition of rigor mortis: It is not a bad battery that needs explanation from a parasitic load test, but happened when the mechanic followed the Ford engineer's instruction to disconnect the Body Control Module. The battery was fully charged. The mechanic double checked that. Also checked for blown fuses/breakers. And then tried a new BCM. Still dead and not coming back for Halloween. Neither the mechanic nor Ford engineers in Michigan HQ know why their work on the BCM caused the problem or where that new problem - resulting in total rigor mortis - is located. The problem is likely not in the BCM itself since it is now a new BCM. Meanwhile, I'll keep folks here posted on my progress: Have not heard back again from the service department, which probably means they have not yet figured out why the car is dead. The service manager would have called to let me know if they had it alive again. Started the process of demanding a buy back by calling Ford Customer Care. They were helpful, assigned a case number, said they would start an investigation and notify me in 10 days if they think a buy back is not warranted and within 15 days have paperwork to me for a buy back if it is warranted. Also began drafting a letter to Ford HQ's Customer Relations Center which I will mail tomorrow, certified, receipt requested, and I will include copies of my full service history plus e-mail communications I had with the original dealership and with Ford Customer Care back in January. The letter is required by California law and is necessary if I need to invoke the law's legal rights down the road. Sending the letter with documentation also shows Ford that I have my ducks in a row. I think the service record available to Ford speaks for itself, but one must expect big companies (and small companies) to latch onto a way to deny responsibility if it is handed to them on a platter - for example, a failure to meet the criteria of the law, a lack of records from the complainant, or evidence of tinkering with the car that could be used to void warranty & legal responsibility.

At the risk of feeding trolls: 1) There is no simple verification test to determine whether the global open feature on windows is being triggered accidentally. One could pull the battery from the keys so the feature could not possibly be triggered by the key, but then it would take several months before one could get only inconclusive results suggestive of accidental triggering. 1.A) Even if the global open feature is triggered accidentally by me and by the other people who have had it happen with the C-Maxs and other Ford cars, it would still be a problem for Ford to fix by redesigning the key to prevent accidental triggering, or at minimum by disabling the global open feature 1.B) Absolutely no verification test of any kind is possible when the car is totally dead at the dealer, with a certified Hybrid mechanic and Ford engineers in Michigan unable to figure out why the car is dead 2) Changing service departments is sometimes a good idea and I have recommended doing so to others on this thread who have described bad service departments. Up thread I explain why I did it last spring, and found an excellent service department at Airport Marina Ford in Los Angeles. There is nothing I have written since that suggests the new service department has done anything wrong. To the contrary, they have been very smart about diagnosing problems and working with Ford engineers. What is my basis for evaluating them? Well, there is the repair history I have detailed in many posts plus the fact that auto repair was my family's business for two generations (not what I do but I grew up working in the shop, learned the general process of mechanical diagnostics there and elsewhere, and also learned how to evaluate business conduct). 2.A) Ford engineers have been working on the window opening troubles with my C-Max and other C-Maxs this past year and also with other Ford models for at least 10 years, and the engineers have been working on the 12 volt battery problems, too. After almost one full year they have not found definitive solutions for the C-Max. 3) Yes, I am a very stubborn person. I stubbornly researched and studied the problem myself, and stubbornly asked the excellent service adviser questions about every diagnostic and repair step and also asked him to convey a few questions to the Ford engineers. I also stubbornly wanted Ford to find fixes so I could keep the C-Max, which I like in every other respect. 3.A) I am also rather stubborn when it comes to products and warranties being as advertised. Although I have put in far too many hours researching C-Max problems I have never wavered in my stubborn insistence that it is Ford's responsibility to diagnose and fix these problems. 3.B) One thing no one should do accidentally is void their own warranty by monkeying around too much with battery chargers and jumpers - use Ford's roadside service because it creates a documentary record and protects you from Ford claiming you did something that voids the warranty. Cheers!

Fbov I was also happy with initial build quality, road performance, and how well the car met my needs (until it was repeatedly dead from 12 volt problems and the windows repeatedly opened themselves and the mechanic, an excellent mechanic, could not fix it and the Ford engineers could not fix it). The car drives great. It is very comfortable. It has great cargo space that I need. Fuel economy is great. The price was reasonable. But it is unreliable. Mine certainly has been and too many others have been, as well. That is why I say that there is a design problem. Reliability depends in large part on good engineering design, and so too does repairability. There are always one-off problems with this part or that part, in which case the part gets adjusted or replaced and all is good. But it is clear that the C-Max design has produced problems in some crucial systems that Ford has still not been able to figure out how to fix. Your car, however, might be solid and dependable, and thus it is enviably a great car. May it stay that way for you.

My 1995 Honda Accord has a bad case of Honda Pattern Baldness (AKA no paint left on horizontal surfaces) but it runs wonderfully and reliably and has never had a problem except for expected wear over 18 years. I should thank you, Dr Diesel, for helping me to clarify my thinking about the C-Max. I had been wavering about giving up on the C-Max, but your comments helped me to reflect on the situation logically and dispassionately. The C-Max is a great concept, but it is very poorly engineered with systems that are 1) unreliable and 2) not understood well enough by Ford to be able to fix them. That is the definition of a Lemon. It is a shame, but there is no getting around the conclusion that the C-Max has shown itself to be trouble as far as the eye can see. Ford's ability to fix the car is not on the horizon.

I think it would be helpful to have a thread with information about Lemon Law buy back experiences, with a focus on practical information such as Ford contact information from buy back cases and pointers from experience in dealing with Ford. I am just initiating a buy back demand now (details on the 12 volt thread in this Maintenance, TSB & Recall section of the forum and also on a thread about the power windows in the Alarms, Keyless Entry, Locks section. I know the details of the California Lemon Law, have all my records, and have the standard Ford contact address from the Owner's Manual & Warranty that the California law singles out for sending a certified return receipt letter. It would be helpful to know if any of you who have gone through the buy back process were able to find a specific address or phone number within Ford for processing buy backs. Did any of you have your dealer participate in the process? In cases of buy backs or in cases of exchanges for another Ford?

and I just talked to the service manager, an excellent, smart, and honest guy. they installed the new Body Control Module (BCM) and the car is still dead. preparing a letter to send Ford by certified mail and also by fax & e-mail if i can find appropriate fax # and e-mail address.

If not for the 12 volt battery problems that periodically renders C-Max cars inoperable, then I think it would be just groovy to have all kinds of electronic accessories that rank in the top 10 of unreliability lists so that the accessories can't be used and the car has to spend a lot of time in the shop. Somehow other cars start reliably and have power windows that don't roll themselves open randomly and inexplicably and have other electronic accessories that tend to work without trouble. Even some cars made in Korea, let alone cars made in Japan and other countries. My thinking on this is to keep it simple, as the saying goes. My C-Max is at the dealer again about the windows (see that thread elsewhere in the forum) and the car went dead when the mechanic disconnected and reconnected the Body Control Module. I am thinking it is time for a buy back after almost a year of bringing my C-MAX back to the dealer at least 4 times for 12 volt battery issues and at least 5 times for windows opening themselves and once for broken seat belt sensor and once for a missing rear hatch bumper and another time for the headliner recall & the August fuel economy update. Waiting to talk to the service manager. if the car is not ready to go then I will start writing to Ford demanding a buy back, and start shopping for a Prius or a Matrix or maybe a Hyundai Elantra GT. Might start buy back demands even if the C-Max is ready to drive off now. It is just too troublesome and unreliable.

Dear Dr Diesel In 30 years of car ownership I have never activated an alarm by accidentally pressing the keys in my pocket. Nor have I accidentally started a car with a remote start button. Nor do I think I am accidentally opening the windows on my C-Max. The global open feature requires depressing the open button and holding it in that mode of at least 3 seconds. It also seems to require unlocking the doors first. That is a neat trick to pull off by accident. My very good Ford Service Dept is not suggesting that I am the accidental culprit, nor are the Ford engineers. If you read upthread you will see that early this year when I first reported the problem I researched Ford's record with this feature. On other models they have had problems with the feature for years and ultimately corrected the problem by finding a way to disable the feature. I suspect that is why the C-Max owner's manual says that dealer service can disable the feature upon request . . . except, surprise! Ford did not build the system on the C-Max with a safe way to disable it! Ford engineers say it cannot be done, at least not yet. A few takeaway points: 1) The C-Max is not the only Ford to have had this problem. 2) The owner's manual promises a feature (disconnection of the global open feature) that does not seem to exist. 3) And, for the sake of argument, if it could be shown that the global open feature is being activated accidentally by the jumbling of keys in a pocket (where I keep them) or in a bag or any other typical place that most people keep keys, then the problem would be that the design of the keys is defective. Your proposed test is not as easy nor as likely to be conclusive as you say. It would take months before one could think the test of keeping keys out-of-pocket was showing anything, and even then it would not be 100% conclusive, and even if it were conclusive it would still be a design defect, and a misrepresentation in the manual. 4) Ford is not trying to claim the problem is the way I keep keys in my pocket.

Correction: not a fob, but a key with buttons on it. Update: Brought the car for service on Monday. On Tuesday a Ford Engineer recommended they try unplugging the Body Control Module (BCM). Mechanic did it and car was dead. Reinstalled BCM and car was still dead. Tried jumping the car, no effect. Tested battery, fully charged. Today the Ford Engineer recommended replacing the BCM on the theory it is (and maybe was) defective or fried. Part is to be delivered today, then installed and tested. This is my 5th service attempt to fix the problem of windows opening randomly. I have also had at least 3 service visits for dead 12 volts. I am in Lemon Law Territory and thinking about whether to invoke it and whether I would trade for another C-Max or another Ford model or ask for a cash refund and then go buy something else, possibly a Prius V or a Matrix. I like the C-Max when it works . . .but the service visits take a lot of time, the problems have not yet been definitively identified and fixed, and the two main problems I have experienced are causes for worry. Dead 12 volt can mean being late for work or stranded. Windows rolling down are a security risk and expose the interior to rain, etc, and the problem makes me worry and keep looking outside to see of the windows are closed. Both problems impair the use and value of the car, and also safety - the three California criteria for being a substantial problem. California law calculates a refund by allowing a manufacturer to deduct a fee for miles driven at the time of the first service visit for the problem (not the at the time of the buy back). For me, the first visit was a week after buying the car, with about 80 miles driven by me. So I would get virtually 100% refunded, plus the cost of registration, etc. Probably I will take the car if they seem to have fixed it during this service round, but send Ford a Lemon demand at the next 12 volt or window malfunction. Might still change my mind and do it now.

Update on global open operating by itself: Just had another episode two days ago, and one before that in September since I first posted about this in January 2013 I have had it happen about 6 or 7 more times. I have it to the dealer for service to address this at least twice (need to check records, might have been three times already). First trip to the dealer they found nothing wrong (no error codes, etc) and told me Ford says the feature cannot be disabled even the manual says the dealer can disable it. That was in January 2013. In April or May I brought to a different and better Ford dealer service department after it had happened another couple of times. They found no error codes. On Ford's advice they reprogrammed the key fobs. Also had TSBs performed for 12 volt battery troubles (details on that thread). Since April/May it seemed maybe the window problem had been solved. But then there was one episode over the summer, then one in September, and one just two days ago. Called dealer service and asked them to please check with Ford about disabling the global open feature (though I like opening the windows with the feature on hot days, not worth the rain and security risk of the windows opening at random times). Ford responded that the feature can be disabled but that doing so could and probably would cause other problems. Seems they have had this experience. Bringing the car to service on Monday and will explore theories and options then. My guess is there will be no error codes. Theories: could be another key fob or transmitter on the same frequency issuing the same code, could be a short or similar kind of glitch that self-activates the system, could be (but I doubt it) a bad fob design that increases the odds of accidentally unlocking the doors and pressing the open button for 3 seconds to activate global open. Unfortunately I do not see a practical way to test these theories. Disable the fobs and open & lock the doors manually with the key for a few months and see if the global open feature still activates itself? That would eliminate the fob as the culprit if it happens again. If it does not not happen again over 2 or 3 months it would still be inconclusive, but suggestive. Either way, no good solution is likely to be available. Changing to a new fob? Searching for a glitch or short is very difficult if it is not happening in front of the mechanic and not showing an error code. Identifying a transmitter issuing a similar signal would require a monitoring station at my house (all incidents have been at home so far). Seems improbable.

Lumike There was another poster or two on the forum who had a buy back in the Ventura/Oxnard area. This has gone on so long that I have forgotten their name, but if you skim through the first half of the thread you will find their posts. Probably one can also search on the forum for "Oxnard" and "ventura" and find them. Odds are at least one used your dealer, so that dealer is probably well versed n the battery problem. Your case and other recent cases make me think about the future because it is clear the problem has not been solved. I am thinking about options if Ford does not find a reliable fix. One option for me is a buy back if I have another episode. Maybe another option would be to start asking Ford to extend roadside assistance given that it will be necessary since they have not found a fix for the problem. An emergency battery jump starter is also an option maybe Ford should buy them for us? So far it does not seem that any published car reviews have mentioned the battery problem.

bam48 I think your case is atypical and maybe unique. I cannot recall another case in which the battery was fried and could not take a charge. Even if it happened once to someone else, I definitely do not think it has ever happened repeatedly. Batteries have been changed in my case and others more as a precaution and gesture of goodwill, not because they could not take a charge.

So far it does not seem that Ford or any of its dealers have been able to learn anything significant by receiving a car with its battery dead, as opposed to receiving a car that was jumped and driven to the dealer. One caveat to that: Some dealers have taken the problem seriously only after having the dead car towed in while dead, but that was more of an issue 6-9 months ago. These days there are TSBs on record, so dealers would have to be sleazy or lazy or lame to tell an owner they can't see the problem (if you experience this switch dealers for service). Nevertheless, except in emergencies when you have no time, I would recommend calling Ford's roadside assistance and having them tow the car, if you can spare the time, or jump it. That way Ford has a record of the problem and Ford pays for the roadside service (costs to Ford add incentive for them to solve the problem), and it also protects your warranty. I am not saying that using a charger violates the warranty, but I worry that someone at Ford might someday try to claim it does. If you can, play it safer by calling Ford roadside assistance. Two dealers have given me free rental cars when my CMax was in their shop for battery issues. I think this is at the dealer's discretion, but I am not sure.

Mbedit If you have the opportunity again, would you consider asking whether Ford engineers have looked for a hyper-sensitive relay/circuit/swtich that shuts down when there is a moderate decline in battery voltage (i.e., with less depletion of the battery than one would expect necessary to cause a problem)? So far it does seem that Ford has concentrated on finding power drains, whether from software that does not shut down or from short-circuits caused by water in electrical connectors and pinched wires. Earlier they also worked on the software that regulates battery charging.

GSMacLean Yes, the smaller size of the CMax battery was one of this forum's earliest subjects of concentration, for more or less the reasons you lay out.

BobJustBob Yes, it was your post that reminded me of this theory, which I think I and others discussed here a few months ago. PJFW8 I have no way to know what Ford's engineers have been testing. However, maybe Mbedit can ask them. He has had some direct contact from the engineers after his buyback a few months ago. The engineers asked him questions about his driving habits, etc, and if I recall correctly they told him about some of the fixes they were then preparing.

Mbedit Your story and another person's episode a few comments back makes me think back to one of my theories about the 12 Volt problems from way back: Rather than the battery being dead, something triggers a relay and shuts it down, but does so in such a way that a jump from a charger reopens the relay. The hypothesis is that the relay is shut kind of like a circuit breaker, and then flipped back open by the charger. Put slightly differently, maybe a relay or computer component is hyper-sensitive to the voltage level in the battery, so that a level that would run accessories in most cars is insufficient to do anything in a C-Max. This would explain the curious phenomena of batteries recharging much more quickly than one would expect if they were truly discharged. Almost all the episodes reported here tell us that once jumped the car can be driven a short distance and the dead battery episode does cannot get repeated in the shop. The poster just upthread said his trickle charger completed a re-charge in a very short amount of time, much shorter than one would expect for a depleted battery - hence the suspicion that the battery was not deeply depleted. This theory could also help explain what seems to be multiple causes for our episodes: anything that reduces the battery voltage modestly (or moderately) could be enough to trigger a shutdown, even though the voltage reduction does not appear severe enough to show up as a traditionally dead depleted battery requiring a long recharge. Looked at this way, the core problem is the hyper-sensitive relay ( or other component) and the trigger events come in the form of anything that moderately depletes the battery (water in a connector, a phone link that stays on, etc).

Mbedit Sorry to hear this. Please let us know what happens.

Kauai Cmax This thread and one or two old threads (now closed, but still available to read) have a lot of information in them. There are 40 pages of posts but you will see that a great many posts can be skipped, so you can fly through pretty quickly looking for detailed discussions of the several fixes that have been tried. You'll want to have the relevant TSB numbers at hand to ask your dealer if they have been tried. You'll want to have the list of electrical connectors tht have sometimes been found to suffer from water intrusion, and have the dealer check the connectors for water or water damage. A few cases have reportedly found malfunctioning modules in the instrument panel and/or entertainment console. There are reports of possible problems with the Sync system not shutting down. Swapping out the battery has been a good practice when other problems are addressed. I might be leaving something out but I think this is a summary of the major targets that have been tried. In the end, it does not seem that a definitive cause has yet been identified, though it is also possible that there is more than a single cause. Some cars have gone a few months now without re-occurence. But, as you can see, some cars are still having trouble in July after repeated repair attempts. Last but not least, read up on your State's Lemon Law and keep a complete file on your car's repair history. Ford's record on Lemon Law buy backs seems pretty good so far. Be polite, be thorough and clear, make sure your case meets all the criteria of the State law, document everything, and patiently go through Ford's channels to make a Lemon Law demand by starting with your dealer.

yes, it seems that the frequency of incidents has declined.

Many of us (or at least some of us) never use the Sync system but still have experienced dead batteries. The Sync system could still be responsible if it goes on by itself and does not shut. Or there could be multiple causes for dead batteries. Or maybe the Sync system is never a cause. I think we still do not have a good answer as to what is causing the problems.

It will be interesting to see if the 2014 models have a dramatically redesigned system of electrical controls, switches and software. If they knew the cuase of the 12 volt problems in the 2013 then they could target it surgically for the 2014, but they don't seem to know the cause or causes of the problems. That leaves them the option of a sweeping change for 2014.

Ted Mike B and Mbedit are correct about the doors: they will open from the inside even with the battery dead and can be opened from the outside with the key. Mike B is correct that the 12 volt failures can only occur when the car has been parked for some time, and cannot occur whle the car is being driven. The battery problem can render the car useless, which makes the problem suitable for Lemon Law cases, but it is not a safety problem. About your attempt to invoke the Lemon Law: I looked at your posts, in which you report the number of dead battery episodes, but not the number of repair attempts. As you can see from the text of the Lemon Law in California, it is the number of repair attempts that counts. Also, your posts make it sound (and perhaps this is a mis-readng on my part) as if you asked Ford to consider making a buy back offer, as opposed to giving Ford a polite but firm demand for a buy back in which you make the case yourself. Forgive me if my inference is wrong. Either way, Mbedit is correct that you need to assemble the case for a buy back with care and make sure you have dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's. Be very firm and clear by citing the legal requirements and demonstrating with documents that your case meets them, and always be polite. You can do this on your own. Just take your time and triple check all your records and the letter you write before you send it. If you follow the letter of the law and if Ford refuses you, then you can try telling Ford (always in writing) that you will see a lawyer. And if that does not work you can actually go see a lawyer. But all the experiences reported on this forum indicate that Ford has been reasonable in buy back cases concerning the CMax battery problems.