I am interested in learning about powering the C-max via a solar rooftop system

[SolarForme]

If I buy this car I would like to use power from a solar power array. More than likely I would need to add more panels to my existing system and perhaps a bigger inverter. I have all the specs for the existing system, but need an estimate of how much additional capacity I might have to add based on my historical driving records. Panels are getting cheaper and cheaper.

 

My electric supplier pays me for excess generation but they are realy stingy. My existing 4800 KWh system has 16 panels and meets most of my current needs except for the hottest three months of the year. There is space for at least 10 more panels and I need to figure out if that would be enough to power a C-MAX. I drive very few miles per month, yet gas is costing me $80 a month. Since I have a Garmin GPS I use on every trip I can extract very accurate usage data for the past two years.

 

What I am talking about doing will take some careful planning and estimating and any information I can glean from others that have gone this route would be extremely helpful. It seems to me that routine maintenance costs for the C-MAX should be lower than for my aging Focus wagon. No oil changes are a plus I am new to this forum, but I do not find much in the way of operating expenses.

 

 hope this initial post sparks a lot of interest.

[fotomoto]

Welcome to the site!  :happy feet:

 

Just to clarify, the C-Max hybrid does NOT use a/c electricity from the wall but the Energi model does.  The Energi is a PHEV so it also has a gas engine and thus will need oil changes.  The electric Focus model is a pure EV design and will never need oil changes but will still require periodic inverter coolant and brake fluid changes.

 

HTH

[plus 3 golfer]

I had a solar system on my previous house and will have a 5 kW system installed hopefully in June on my current home.  When looking at buying a C-Max, I did a detailed analysis of installing a slightly larger system and  using excess solar energy to charge an Energi.   If you assume you can get 21 miles on a full charge and do this once per day, that's about 7600 miles a year.  If you assume 7 kWh to charge each day, you're talking about 2500 kWh a year.  I have a detailed monthly model and can run various scenarios, if you desire.  I would need to know your monthly on-peak and off-peak usage and the actual on-peak and off-peak generation or the specs on the current panels and their orientation.   

 

If you are on APS, I assume you know that they have had two forums recently on how solar energy affects on their electric system and how they are currently losing revenue being made up by non-solar customers.  They will likely within a year file with the ACC to modify the net metering and how much they pay for excess energy.  Worst case is that they will eliminate net metering totally and reduce the buyback rate significantly.  So, in essence there would be no banking of energy and either use your excess  

 

If you are on SRP, their buyback rates are already significantly lower than APS and also the net metering tariff is significantly worse than APS.  I figure that there's precedence for the ACC to look at namely the SRP net metering structure.  If APS would adopt something similar to SRP, an APS solar customer will likely lose between 15 - 20% of the on going solar benefit.  

[zhackwyatt]

I had a solar system on my previous house and will have a 5 kW system installed hopefully in June on my current home.  When looking at buying a C-Max, I did a detailed analysis of installing a slightly larger system and  using excess solar energy to charge an Energi.   If you assume you can get 21 miles on a full charge and do this once per day, that's about 7600 miles a year.  If you assume 7 kWh to charge each day, you're talking about 2500 kWh a year.  I have a detailed monthly model and can run various scenarios, if you desire.  I would need to know your monthly on-peak and off-peak usage and the actual on-peak and off-peak generation or the specs on the current panels and their orientation.   

 

If you are on APS, I assume you know that they have had two forums recently on how solar energy affects on their electric system and how they are currently losing revenue being made up by non-solar customers.  They will likely within a year file with the ACC to modify the net metering and how much they pay for excess energy.  Worst case is that they will eliminate net metering totally and reduce the buyback rate significantly.  So, in essence there would be no banking of energy and either use your excess  

 

If you are on SRP, their buyback rates are already significantly lower than APS and also the net metering tariff is significantly worse than APS.  I figure that there's precedence for the ACC to look at namely the SRP net metering structure.  If APS would adopt something similar to SRP, an APS solar customer will likely lose between 15 - 20% of the on going solar benefit.  

I have solar and SRP.  I only did the panels for financial reasons, but I can't imagine adding more just to cover the cost of the C-Max Energi would be a financial benefit.

[armoredsaint]

LOL - at first I was thinking you wanted to attach solar panels to your car, unless I read it wrong  ;)

[plus 3 golfer]

I have solar and SRP.  I only did the panels for financial reasons, but I can't imagine adding more just to cover the cost of the C-Max Energi would be a financial benefit.

Exactly my reason also.  My old home was served by APS and my new one by SRP.  I couldn't financially justify any larger system than around 5 kW (even though the installers push the larger systems).  This size will hedge about 80 - 85 % of my kWh usage and costs.  After this installing additional capacity began to increase the incremental payback period significantly because a greater % of the additional solar generation was being sold back to SRP at very low rates than being used to offset home usage.  The addition of off-peak load from charging an Energi offset some of this but not enough for me to justify financially increasing the size of my system and buy an Energi instead of the Hybrid.  

 

Of course, people do make decisions on other than financial reasons.  

 

 

Edited May 2, 2013 by Plus 3 Golfer

[mipmapped]

If I buy this car I would like to use power from a solar power array. More than likely I would need to add more panels to my existing system and perhaps a bigger inverter. I have all the specs for the existing system, but need an estimate of how much additional capacity I might have to add based on my historical driving records. Panels are getting cheaper and cheaper.

 

My electric supplier pays me for excess generation but they are realy stingy. My existing 4800 KWh system has 16 panels and meets most of my current needs except for the hottest three months of the year. There is space for at least 10 more panels and I need to figure out if that would be enough to power a C-MAX. I drive very few miles per month, yet gas is costing me $80 a month. Since I have a Garmin GPS I use on every trip I can extract very accurate usage data for the past two years.

 

What I am talking about doing will take some careful planning and estimating and any information I can glean from others that have gone this route would be extremely helpful. It seems to me that routine maintenance costs for the C-MAX should be lower than for my aging Focus wagon. No oil changes are a plus I am new to this forum, but I do not find much in the way of operating expenses.

 

 hope this initial post sparks a lot of interest.

 

I suggest you browse the Energi forum http://fordcmaxenergiforum.com. There's plenty of discussions on KWH needed to charge, 120 vs 240V, solar etc. But if your panels are grid tied (they'd have to be if you want to charge overnight) it is just a matter of counting your production vs consumption, the C-Max is just part of that equation.

[ScubaDadMiami]

LOL - at first I was thinking you wanted to attach solar panels to your car, unless I read it wrong  ;)

So did I.

[fotomoto]

So did I.

 

Hey I had them on my Prius!  $4,000 option (along with NAV and JBL sound) and they did not charge the HV battery.  Only delivered about 22w to run the fan during the day which helped greatly with interior temps.  

[wab]

SolarForme

 

These links may not help you, but you might find them interesting.

 

"SunPower and Ford Partner to Bring You Emission-Free Driving Fun"

http://us.sunpowercorp.com/homes/ford-focus-electric/

 

"Ford's 'MyEnergi Lifestyle' Products Aim to Reduce Your Carbon Footprint"

http://mashable.com/2013/01/08/ford-myenergi-lifestyle/

[zhackwyatt]

Hey I had them on my Prius!  $4,000 option (along with NAV and JBL sound) and they did not charge the HV battery.  Only delivered about 22w to run the fan during the day which helped greatly with interior temps.  

I've always wondered about that option on the Prius but I never could tell if it was a just a gimick or really useful.  I wonder if it would help at all in Phoenix, or if its just too hot here to make a difference.

[Tdefny]

Replacing 180° air with 120° air would help, but you will still want the AC.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I'd be happy to have that solar fan going here in Miami.  At least there is the option to open the windows, start the car, and crank the AC with the CMAX.  But, it would be cool to add that solar fan to at least provide some protection to the interior while sitting in that hot sun.

[MacGyver]

Here ya go, I had the black aftermarket one, and in Los Angeles summers, it helped noticeably, maybe in Florida it would help even more, I finally got tired of putting it on the window when I parked as it didn't result in the car being cool when you got back in, just coolER.

 

Plus, it looks clunky on your space-age new C-max...

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&gs_rn=12&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=wzbznDtP_JbAagIKav1a4Q&cp=12&gs_id=9d&xhr=t&q=solar+car+window+fan&es_nrs=true&pf=p&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&oq=solar+car+wi&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.cGE&fp=59522ab026b941d4&ion=1&biw=1092&bih=533

 

Always thought about making it internal, hiding away the fan in the headliner or something and running tubing down to the bottom of the car to suck in cooler air from down there, never did tackle that project...

[CarpeNivem]

LOL - at first I was thinking you wanted to attach solar panels to your car, unless I read it wrong  ;)

 

I thought exactly the same, and was really hoping someone had tried putting something like this on the roof of our cars...

 

http://peelandsticksolarenergy.com/recreational-solar/rvs/

 

...I really wanted to know how much it cost, and how well it worked. I'm sure it costs entirely too much, and works entirely too little, but I was curious anyway! :)

Edited June 28, 2013 by CarpeNivem

[plus 3 golfer]

I guess the OP is gone.  

 

If you are still following this post, here's my analysis on my current system with SRP. I initially sized my system to hedge electricity prices while maximizing overall and incremental returns and payback. There's an optimal system size that going beyond reduces the overall return and significantly reduces the incremental return because of the utility's buyback tariff. 

 

My 4.94 kW solar system was commissioned June 10.  Based on 17 days of operation, I am generating more than I anticipated given the conditions and thus will likely hedge 85 - 90% of my home usage.  If I added 3 more 260W panels, I could add the load of charging an Energi and have my annual electric bill be virtually the same as it will be now.  But the biggest problem is the cost to add capacity to an existing system is significantly more than the initial installation.  To compound matters, since I do not have enough inverter capacity,  I  would need to replace the inverter at maybe $3k.  Also, it would be at least $3k for the other equipment and the Solar installers cost to get the system "re-approved" and commissioned (certified installer must do the work and SRP must approve). So, after tax credits and incentives adding such PV capacity to my existing system would be a huge mistake..  Even if the inverter had sufficient capacity, the best I could likely do now after credits is spend $2000 upfront to charge an Energi vs paying SRP an additional $131 using my existing system the first year - a simple payback of 15+ years. Add to this the additional gas used in the Energi over the Hybrid for the non EV miles and the payback jumps a few more years. 

 

Had I opted to install the 3 panels initially (and bought an Energi), my out of pocket cost (after credits) would have been only $1400 more for the larger inverter and 3 panels.   But even so the simple payback is over 10 years.  Adding the additional cost of gas for the Energi vs the Hybrid for non EV miles and the simple payback could easily be over 12 years.

I look at a car as a depreciating asset and believe it makes little sense to invest capital in an asset that supports a depreciating asset without a very short payback. I doubt I will be in my house 12 years or own my C-Max for 12 years.

 

Of course, this analysis begs the question as t whether the Energi cost premium in AZ over the Hybrid makes financial sense to begin with.

[viajero]

Like any financial analysis over many years, there's a lot of guesswork in predicting what prices, rates, and tariffs are going to do in the future.  I sized my solar panels per the utility's net metering scheme, which allowed you to offset your home consumption, but paid a very low rate for any extra generation.  Then, a year later, my A/C died and I replaced it with a new one which uses much less energy, so I was generating extra.  The, a year after that, they ditched the net metering scheme and now just charge you for all the energy your house uses, and pay you a fixed rate for all the energy your solar generates.  That tariff is generous enough to give me big credits on my electric bill in all but the hottest three months of the year, even after charging my Energi.

 

The solar tariff is reviewed every year, so of course, it could be cut back...

[viajero]

Of course, this analysis begs the question as t whether the Energi cost premium in AZ over the Hybrid makes financial sense to begin with.

 

I feel it's worth pointing out here that almost no car makes financial sense.  Somewhere out there is a car with the lowest total cost of ownership over whatever number of years you care about.  Most likely a Hyundai or Kia of some sort.  Late model used cars may be better.  Any other car doesn't make financial sense.

 

A car is not an investment.*  It's a consumable item, like food or gasoline.  All the money spent on the purchase price will eventually be depreciated away.  And of course money for gas, insurance, and maintenance disappears immediately.

 

I ask myself - for the money I'm spending, is it worth what I'm getting?  Is the speed, capacity, comfort, quietness, safety, looks, off-road ability, environmental impact, or whatever I care about worth the money I'm forever losing to depreciation, fuel, and so on?

 

* Of course, there are some collectible cars which appreciate in value over time.  C-Max is not likely to be one of them.

[plus 3 golfer]

The presumption is one is going to buy a C-Max and is indifferent to a PHEV or hybrid (not whether another model makes more sense) as I was.

 

I may have said this before but my first solar system was with APS which offered very favorable net metering with true up in Dec each year at a payment for excess at over 6+ cents/kWh. My payback was about 3 years. Now with SRP the true up is May 1 each year with payment tied to the Palo Verde trading hub on-peak average annual price less SRP expenses. The payment for excess generation has been around 4 cents/kWh. APS will likely file soon to amend their tariff to reduce / eliminate the subsidy solar customers are receiving from non-solar customers. The AZ Commision directed them to hold a series of workshops to hear from stakeholders which I believe are over.

 

I had cautioned my previous neighbors and friends several years ago not io install too large a system as APS could file to change their net metering tariff anytime despite what the installers might be saying. Several installed 12kW+ systems generating around 24k annual kWh with annual usage of less than 16 kWh per year. I really look for APS to propose eliminating net metering (like TX) but continue to pay the 6+ cent/kWh and ultimately tie it to wholesale trading hub prices adjusted for any T&D benefits from ones PV generation. The guys that put the oversized solar in could lose a bundle and virtually never recover the incremental cost of their excess Solar capacity on a discounted cash flow basis.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Plus 3 Golfer

[viajero]

Right now Austin is paying 12 cents per kWh, but San Antonio recently proposed 5 cents.  There was a lot of protest over the 5 cents, so they may raise that a bit, but then again Austin may lower theirs.  Who knows?

[viajero]

...I really wanted to know how much it cost, and how well it worked. I'm sure it costs entirely too much, and works entirely too little, but I was curious anyway!

 

It would probably work well for running a fan, but probably never for a car.  The total amount of solar energy hitting a car on the brightest days is only a few kW, less than 10 horsepower.  On cloudy days or when the sun is low in the sky it's less than that.  So even if someone invents 100% efficient solar panels, they won't move a very big car.

 

Yesterday I watched some of the Formula Sun race in Austin.  College teams built and raced solar cars.  Some were pretty impressive, but extremely lightweight and streamlined.   They all were crawling by the time they got to the top of the big hill, and one didn't make it up at all.

 

 

[zhackwyatt]

It would probably work well for running a fan, but probably never for a car.  The total amount of solar energy hitting a car on the brightest days is only a few kW, less than 10 horsepower.  On cloudy days or when the sun is low in the sky it's less than that.  So even if someone invents 100% efficient solar panels, they won't move a very big car.

 

Yesterday I watched some of the Formula Sun race in Austin.  College teams built and raced solar cars.  Some were pretty impressive, but extremely lightweight and streamlined.   They all were crawling by the time they got to the top of the big hill, and one didn't make it up at all.

That is what the Prius can do.  I always wondered if it was useful and made a significant difference when parked in the sun all day, or if it was just a gimmick to make people feel better.

[PWBarrett]

Looks like the solar roof on the Prius just runs a fan, not for charging the battery:

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/412625/the-underwhelming-solar-prius/

[fotomoto]

That is what the Prius can do.  I always wondered if it was useful and made a significant difference when parked in the sun all day, or if it was just a gimmick to make people feel better.

 

As I said back in post #9, I had a prius with the solar roof option and yes it worked.  The best analogy I've heard: the cooling effect is the equivalent of having all your windows cracked open all day long but without the security and dust issues (filtered air).  It was a $4k option that was bundled with premium sound, NAV, and sunroof but I got a $3.5k discount so I went for it.  As a single option, I certainly wouldn't pay $4k for it but, say, around $1k?  Here in the deep south?  Sure.

[MtnMarty]

LOL - at first I was thinking you wanted to attach solar panels to your car, unless I read it wrong  ;)

me too.... :)