Lemon Law & Buy Back Info and Experience

[BullDurham]

The representative of the BBB Autoline called me yesterday with the first response to my lemon law request that Ford repurchase my car.  Ford has not agreed to repurchase the car, but instead wanted to send an engineer to work on it.  I told the BBB that that was not acceptable to me.  So now we will go to arbitration in early September, unless Ford changes it's mind.

 

Frankly, I think Ford does itself no good by dragging these cases out like this.  The car has been in the shop four times, which is what the lemon law requires, and by their own admission, the problem is not fixed.  If they want an engineer to work on my car, buy it back.  I have already bought another car in order to insure that I could get to my daily cancer treatments at Duke Cancer Center, and therefore I have no interest in keeping the C-Max while they continue to tinker.    

[hybridbear]

The representative of the BBB Autoline called me yesterday with the first response to my lemon law request that Ford repurchase my car.  Ford has not agreed to repurchase the car, but instead wanted to send an engineer to work on it.  I told the BBB that that was not acceptable to me.  So now we will go to arbitration in early September, unless Ford changes it's mind.

 

Frankly, I think Ford does itself no good by dragging these cases out like this.  The car has been in the shop four times, which is what the lemon law requires, and by their own admission, the problem is not fixed.  If they want an engineer to work on my car, buy it back.  I have already bought another car in order to insure that I could get to my daily cancer treatments at Duke Cancer Center, and therefore I have no interest in keeping the C-Max while they continue to tinker.    

I believe that is Ford's right under the BBB Autoline program. After the dealer has tried & failed to fix the problem the required number of times for Lemon Law the manufacturer gets one final chance to fix everything. If they still are unable to fix it then they're required to repurchase it. If you refuse to work with them and allow them to make a final attempt to repair your car then you cannot expect them to work with you.

[salman]

To Bull Durham

 

The NC Lemon Law does not seem to give the manufacturer an additional whack at fixing the car. According to the NC Dept of Justice, the rule is 4 or more repair attempts, OR 20 or more days in the shop in ne 12 month period. The law does require that you notify the company in writing and give them up to but no more than 15 days to fix the problem - in my reading that does not imply Ford has a right to last whack at fixing the car, but read up on commentary in your state to be sure.

 

The lemon law is here: http://www.ncdoj.gov/consumer/automobiles/lemon-law.aspx

 

I tried to look at the BBB website for NC, but it does not load clearly on my IPad, so I cannot see whether BBB mandates an extra repair attempt. I could only see half of the BBB text. It did not look like there was anything there about an extra repair attempt, but I could not read the document properly on my screen.

 

Please make sure you've read all the rules carefully, both from the State and the BBB program. I guess you elected to go the BBB route rather than approach Ford directly yourself. I hope you did not make the matter more difficult for yourself by that choice. Knowing all the rules will give you the answer to that.

 

If you have full documentation of all of your service visits and if you have had written communication with Ford, then I think you should be able to put together a powerful case.

 

One element of the NC Lemon Law is that the problem with the car must significantly detract from the use value or safety of the car. In your case, not only is a car that repeatedly won't start a clearly significant impingement on the car's usefulness, but you also have a powerfully compelling human story to tell: you need reliable transport for cancer treatments.

 

If you have full documentation, then, if I were in your shoes, I think I would write a letter to Ford and send it to them directly by fax and certified mail. I'd do this while the BBB rocess continues. I'd write up the case for buy back and lead with the full significance of tha car's unreliability, which includes your need to be on time for urgent medical treatments. Basically, you'd be telling Ford that they are risking some very bad publicity and maybe, if the law allows it, damages. The BBB arbitrator will almost certainly be moved by your story. And if you hire a lawyer & win, then Ford would be stuck with your legal costs (in most and possibly all States - check this for NC)

 

The big IF in all of this is that you need to know the law and the BBB rules inside-out, and you need all your documents to be complete and well organized (send copies of the documents with your letter to Ford, if you write to them).

 

My experience of the buy back process was that Ford did not fight it, and I did it directly with Ford. Maybe choosing the BBB program makes Ford think they have more wiggle room. Maybe there is a difference between NC and California that makes Ford less cooperative in NC. Maybe it was just the individual at Ford who got your case that made Ford's response different. Look for clues to an answer for this difference, if there are any clues.

 

Best of luck with you health and with Ford and BBB.

Edited August 17, 2014 by salman

[Kelleytoons]

Salman -- that is all very sage advice, particularly the writing to appeal directly to Ford's sensibilities.

 

As someone who worked in government for many decades, I can tell you that there is the "letter of the law" and that there is always wiggle room.  IOW, even someone who has to play by a lot of rigid rules can find a way to do something if they really want to do it.  Writing a powerful personal story in an effort to get a "human" on the other side of the dock is always a good idea.  Conversely, if someone really wants to give you a hard time, they generally can.

[BullDurham]

Here are rules that Ford has agreed to with the BBB in North Carolina:

 

Repurchase/Replacement

 

The arbitrator may award a repurchase or replacement only if the arbitrator finds that the claim meets the following conditions:

• The defect(s) in material or workmanship covered by the Ford New Vehicle Limited Warranty was first reported to Ford or an authorized dealer within 18 months or 18,000 miles--whichever occurs first--after the vehicle's warranty start date; and
• Either (1) the same defect was subject to repair four or more times and continues to exist, or (2) the vehicle was out of service for 30 or more cumulative calendar days for repairs to any defect(s); and 
• The defect(s) substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the vehicle to the reasonable consumer.

If the arbitrator finds that the claim meets these conditions, the arbitrator must award a repurchase or replacement that will consist of the following remedies. . . [it then goes on to describe exactly how they determine the repurchase price or the replacement vehicle]

 

This is pretty straight-forward, and it says nothing about a "final chance" after the four repair attempts.   I would also point out again that the dealer had the car for two weeks the final time.  I sent a PM to Ashley and she and other Ford personnel were in touch with the dealer.  The dealer did check all of the connectors and found no problems.  A woman named Michelle of Ford Customer Service (the manufacturer, not the dealer) called me to tell me that the dealer had done everything they could, and they hadn't solved the problem.  That leads me to assume that the dealer did not refuse to try something that Ford recommended.

 

Obviously, I understand that Ford would like to have their engineers take a closer look at this car.  I just don't care to be involved anymore.  The representative of the BBB told me that Ford might change their mind before it goes all the way to arbitration.  So, in that sense, I don't suppose I blame them for trying to see if they can get one more crack at it before they buy it back.  Still, this has been such a nagging, annoying, persistent problem, that I think the better course for Ford is to be very generous in dealing with any customer afflicted with this problem.    

[salman]

BullDurham

 

You seem to be on solid ground.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would go forward to arbitration ASAP and I would also send a letter directly to Ford Corporate if there is time.

 

I agree with you that Ford can't be faulted for asking for another crack at fixing the car, and i agree with you that once you say no they should immediately agree to make the buy back rather than drag through arbitration.

 

Ford's offer to send an engineer to see the car should have happened during the 4th repair attempt. They should not have waited until you filed a lemon law demand.

 

At least the dealer and Ford Corporate were honest enough to tell you that they had not found the cause of the problem during the final 2 week long stay in the shop. 

[necrochaos]

After going back to the dealer for the 12th time, Ford sent an engineer from Corporate to take a look at my car.  They diagnosed it with a throttle body issue.

 

They also flashed the firmware on the computers to the newest available (not yet available to the dealer).  1 day later things are still working.

 

I just heard back from my Regional Rep that they are going to replace my car.  I should be getting a formal letter in the next two weeks.

 

Needless to say I'm very excited.  Over the last 40 days, I spent 12 of them in a rental car.  I've been to the dealer 12 times (24 times if you count driving both ways) with a different error code each time.

 

Glad to see that Ford is going to resolve their problem.  I'm sure blasting them on Twitter, Facebook and Change.Org didn't hurt either, but at least they are trying to make it right.

 

I'll send some updates once I get the letter.

 

My case is finally finished.  It took a lot of me pestering Ford.  As well I got the dealer involved and they called Ford multiple times.

 

After getting paper work start this process in May, I finally received a new vehicle.

 

I didn't have to obtain new financing.  I took my 2013 to Ford and signed an Odometer Statement and a form to release the title to them.

 

I walked out with a 2014 Car, same options and color except this one had remote start installed (+380 dollar option).

 

I'm now making the lease payments on my new car, picking up where I left off with the old car.

 

I think I got a pretty good deal, however it took months of my time to get this taken care of.  The dealer was very helpful to get this job done.  Their service department did everything they could.

 

I'm "happy" with the way this ended.  However, I don't think I'll be buying Ford the next time I purchase a car.  This process took too much of me being involved.

 

It's a shame.  This is my 4th Ford car.  I was very excited to buy a hybrid and hyped this car out at work and to friends.  Now they wouldn't buy one for anything after my experience.

 

Of course I realize that my experience is unlike most other owners.  But it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

 

If anyone needs help with their case or advice from someone who went through it in Michigan, I'm happy to help.

[pringle]

I wanted to weigh in on this and relay my experience with the lemon law/buyback process with Ford. This is based on experience with a C-Max Energi (vs. standard C-Max hybrid).

 

I purchased a new 2013 C-Max Energi last year. I was really excited to be buying an American manufacturer and supporting Ford's impressive leadership in green automotive technology. I was also very excited about the fuel sipping tendencies of the C-Max. In my case I don't commute to work but do make short errands interspersed with longer trips. The C-Max was perfect for me as at least 70% of my trips would entirely electric. I gave up my luxury brand SUV to give Ford a try - after all, I think we can all agree the fit and finish on the C-Max (be it standard hybrid or Energi) is quite good and the interiors are particularly nice.

 

About 2 months after purchase I started experiencing escalating electrical issues. First I had a 12V battery go dead, followed by another 12V drain. They could not pinpoint the problem in either case. Then, the Energi feature stopped charging; just threw off what have become known as blinking blue ring errors (that's the charging port on the car). 4 trips into the dealer for that problem and it has still not been fixed 1.5 years later. 

 

Since then other problems have started to develop including a loud grinding noise in the drivetrain/transmission (sounds like a jet engine taking off when at cruising speed), problems with the computer that kept resetting and rebooting itself, issues with the navigation freezing. All of this on top of the fact the car had stopped charging. I was just hauling around a massive heavy EV battery at that point, getting 38MPG. Yes, that's right, my average was 38MPG. I would have been better off with a standard C-Max Hybrid (and actually, would have been even better off just keeping my SUV).  

 

I had specific documentation from the Ford dealer on the known issues with charging/blinking blue rings which makes for a pretty straightforward case - the key premium feature on the car that I paid for did not work and they knew the problem existed without a known fix. I attempted to pursue the BBB AutoLine process outlined in the owner's manual and I can only report that it was an utter disaster. BBB made errors in the paperwork from the start - including wrong VIN numbers and car descriptions - and were only able to get Ford to commit to yet another service intervention with a Field Service Engineer. Since internal documentation acknowledged the existence of this problem without any known resolution I saw no point in doing that. They did not at that point offer or address my desire for a buyback. BBB also took other actions that made me question their integrity and bias, but I won't elaborate on those here.

 

At that point I decided to pursue a lemon law case against Ford. My car had been out of service in the shop more than 6 times and for more than 30 days. Legal counsel indicated that although Ford says consumers must use the BBB process, it is not legally mandated. You can still pursue a lemon law claim without regard for the BBB process.

 

Relevant documents were filed and a lawsuit moved forward. Ford's legal counsel made many errors along the way including filing legal documents with the wrong VIN number, customer name, vehicle make/model and complaint details. It was very clear it was a cut and paste job probably done by a low-level legal assistant. Only at the last minute, almost a year after the lawsuit was filed and mere weeks before the trial date, did they finally engage in serious settlement discussions. 

 

In the end, they ended up offering a buyback of the vehicle. It was an exceedingly painful experience and not one I would have dared attempt without a lawyer. Be aware if you feel you have a potential lemon law suit - you have little to lose. The manufacturer pays for legal fees. The return process was simple and straightforward once they committed to doing something about the car. I felt I got a good buyback offer in the end although it's never going to make you 100% financially "whole". I ended up buying from a different manufacturer, so far so good with that purchase. Be prepared for a protracted experience with Ford whether you go BBB or lawsuit. It's a black mark on their brand and pretty much guarantees I will never entertain buying from them in the future. I have gone from a converted Ford fan to a 100% detractor.

 

An interesting anecdote: when I went to return the vehicle the nice dealer rep had a stack of probably 6-8 buyback packets sitting on the desk. I got a peek at the folder on top of that stack (not mine, which was sitting open on the desk) and it was also a C-Max Energi. 

Edited August 21, 2014 by pringle

[salman]

My case is finally finished.  It took a lot of me pestering Ford.  As well I got the dealer involved and they called Ford multiple times.

 

After getting paper work start this process in May, I finally received a new vehicle.

 

I didn't have to obtain new financing.  I took my 2013 to Ford and signed an Odometer Statement and a form to release the title to them.

 

I walked out with a 2014 Car, same options and color except this one had remote start installed (+380 dollar option).

 

I'm now making the lease payments on my new car, picking up where I left off with the old car.

 

I think I got a pretty good deal, however it took months of my time to get this taken care of.  The dealer was very helpful to get this job done.  Their service department did everything they could.

 

I'm "happy" with the way this ended.  However, I don't think I'll be buying Ford the next time I purchase a car.  This process took too much of me being involved.

 

It's a shame.  This is my 4th Ford car.  I was very excited to buy a hybrid and hyped this car out at work and to friends.  Now they wouldn't buy one for anything after my experience.

 

Of course I realize that my experience is unlike most other owners.  But it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

 

If anyone needs help with their case or advice from someone who went through it in Michigan, I'm happy to help.

 

 

It took me approx October 2013 to March 2014, so about 5 to 6 months for me, lengthened because I wanted to wait for a 2014 model which came out later than usual. Your case was finished about 3 to 4 months. 

[salman]

 

 

At that point I decided to pursue a lemon law case against Ford. My car had been out of service in the shop more than 6 times and for more than 30 days. Legal counsel indicated that although Ford says consumers must use the BBB process, it is not legally mandated. You can still pursue a lemon law claim without regard for the BBB process.

 

 

 

I am in california, too, and researched the lemon law process deeply before i demanded that Ford buy back or replace my car. Nowhere did i see Ford write that a buy back request must or should go through BBB. I do not even recall seeing BBB mentioned as an alternative. It would be illegal for Ford to say BBB must be used, since the state's law says otherwise. I just initiated the case directly with Ford all on my own - no lawyers, no court case, just a demand that Ford repurchase or replace the car. And 6 months later I had a new car as a replacement, at no monetary cost to me.

 

My gut feeling is that BBB's program is not likely to be helpful in most cases.

 

In most cases discussed on these threads the argument for a lemon law buy back has been very strong, and few if any of the posters here have had to go to court. I would not go to court without a lawyer, but going to couirt generally has not been necessary in any of the cases written up here.

 

Of course, if you hire a lawyer and win (in court or outside of court), Ford stands to be responsible for the attorney fees. That is why Ford actually does process lemon law cases on their own. It takes a few months, but when the case is strong they seem to have a good track record of buying back the cars. There are bureaucratic foul-ups, but so far not much fighting against doing a buy back.

[pringle]

I am in california, too, and researched the lemon law process deeply before i demanded that Ford buy back or replace my car. Nowhere did i see Ford write that a buy back request must or should go through BBB. I do not even recall seeing BBB mentioned as an alternative. It would be illegal for Ford to say BBB must be used, since the state's law says otherwise. I just initiated the case directly with Ford all on my own - no lawyers, no court case, just a demand that Ford repurchase or replace the car. And 6 months later I had a new car as a replacement, at no monetary cost to me.

 

My gut feeling is that BBB's program is not likely to be helpful in most cases.

 

In most cases discussed on these threads the argument for a lemon law buy back has been very strong, and few if any of the posters here have had to go to court. I would not go to court without a lawyer, but going to couirt generally has not been necessary in any of the cases written up here.

 

Of course, if you hire a lawyer and win (in court or outside of court), Ford stands to be responsible for the attorney fees. That is why Ford actually does process lemon law cases on their own. It takes a few months, but when the case is strong they seem to have a good track record of buying back the cars. There are bureaucratic foul-ups, but so far not much fighting against doing a buy back.

 

Looking back I should have taken your approach and foregone the BBB process. I would strongly discourage any consumer from using BBB as the intermediary as is prescribed in the owner's manual, it does not seem to add any value to the process. 

[BullDurham]

The advantage of using BBB is speed.  They aim to resolve cases in 40 days or less.  Several people here are talking about taking months going directly to Ford.  I filed my paperwork with BBB in late July.  Ford responded in mid-August, declining to repurchase, and wanting to send an engineer to examine the car instead.  I said no, and we set an arbitration date of September 3.  Yesterday, August 22, BBB called me and left a voice mail saying that Ford had agreed to a repurchase.  I wasn't able to get back in touch with them on Friday afternoon to find the details, but I assume they will buy it back at a price determined by using the lemon law formula.  

 

The BBB process just insures that Ford responds promptly, and if you don't like their response, you can proceed to arbitration promptly.  I don't see any downside to this.  Even if you lose in arbitration, you can still get a lawyer and pursue other remedies.   

[salman]

Now that is pretty interesting.

 

My reaction against BBB was based on thinking things would stall and drag out with the final repair attempt ploy. But once Bull Durham said "no," it seems Ford immediately agreed to do the buy back. Let's see how long the rest of the process takes.

 

In my case, Ford agreed to do the buy back within about two months, I think, but then paperwork dragged out, and I also waited for the 2014 model, and they dragged out making one available. Bull Durham's experience is quicker so far.

[hybridbear]

Please make sure you've read all the rules carefully, both from the State and the BBB program. I guess you elected to go the BBB route rather than approach Ford directly yourself. I hope you did not make the matter more difficult for yourself by that choice. Knowing all the rules will give you the answer to that.

The BBB process is outlined in the OM. Using that program makes things go more smoothly than just hiring a lawyer. That's why it's in the OM.

[salman]

most posters here have pursued buy backs on their own, without a lawyer.

 

ford's customer service dept will initiate a buy back review if you ask them. They take basic information over the phone, then send you a packet with forms to fill out, plus you send them a letter narrating the case. Ford does not ask for it, but it is a good idea to send copies of all service documents and copies of all correspondence documenting the problems.

 

buy backs take longer than car exchanges, and my case took longer becuase I waited for the new 2014 models, which did not hit the streets until the end of February. I started my case in late October, I think, and got approval for the buy back/exchange in January - so my case also had a delay from the winter holidays, and then another delay when severe cold weather froze everything in Michigan. Then there were some paperwork screw-ups by the company to which Ford outsources its buy back cases.

 

It may prove the case that BBB is faster, but I would not immediately assume that is why Ford or any manufacturer would mention BBB in its owner manuals.

[pjurek99]

After a little over 10 months my case was finalized under the NJ Lemon Law. No BBB involved. Just a regular LL attorney who advertized their service right at the time when I was ignored by the Ford's reps. As a foreigner I could not find the better way than that to hand the case over to the experienced law firm.

They (Ford) agreed to pay the entire sum covering over 12 trips to the service, many days taken off due to the lack of transportation etc.

My preferred way to have the case settled would be to make Ford re-purchase the car from me. The monetary settlement is fair (as far as I am concerned and my personal loss is concerned; no profit just expenses reimbursed).

[scottwood2]

After a little over 10 months my case was finalized under the NJ Lemon Law. No BBB involved. Just a regular LL attorney who advertized their service right at the time when I was ignored by the Ford's reps. As a foreigner I could not find the better way than that to hand the case over to the experienced law firm.

They (Ford) agreed to pay the entire sum covering over 12 trips to the service, many days taken off due to the lack of transportation etc.

My preferred way to have the case settled would be to make Ford re-purchase the car from me. The monetary settlement is fair (as far as I am concerned and my personal loss is concerned; no profit just expenses reimbursed).

So you still have the car and if so have the problems been taken care of?  

[salman]

 

pjurek

 

please explain the details of the settlement in your case.

 

It sounds like ford paid you compensation for all of your time and expenses in dealing with the car. I assume they must have also agreed to buy back your car. And I assume that Ford must be paying your lawyer's bill, which I can only guess must be around $10,000.

 

 

After a little over 10 months my case was finalized under the NJ Lemon Law. No BBB involved. Just a regular LL attorney who advertized their service right at the time when I was ignored by the Ford's reps. As a foreigner I could not find the better way than that to hand the case over to the experienced law firm.

They (Ford) agreed to pay the entire sum covering over 12 trips to the service, many days taken off due to the lack of transportation etc.

My preferred way to have the case settled would be to make Ford re-purchase the car from me. The monetary settlement is fair (as far as I am concerned and my personal loss is concerned; no profit just expenses reimbursed).

[pjurek99]

@scottwood2:

 

Yes. I do still drive the car and the problems have been addressed by the dealership. As of now - there is only one major thing - the navi is not working as it should (same problems but overlapping with fewer if any other problems - before it was the MFT+navi, now it is navi only). Since I moved to another location it is much harder for me to drive to the dealership again and again (now it is ca. 1 hour drive one-way). Will ask them to look at the problem during the next scheduled service.

 

@salman:

 

Yes, no, yes and no.

 

The part of the deal was not to reveal any details.

The car is drivable and (according to the FoMoCo - safe to drive). This was the reason they did not buy it back - according to the lawyer.

[scottwood2]

Interesting.  I did not know you can go through the process and still have the car but it does make sense now that I think about it.  

 

Thx for sharing and glad you still have your C-Max and I presume still like it.  

[pjurek99]

@scottwood2:

 

Well, making very long story very short: I began to love the car after about a year. Part of it was that the issues with MFT (which were really impeding the use of the car) were addressed and I can live with the inaccurate navi.

 

I just have returned from Europe where I drove a gas-powered Peugeot 301 1.6 manual, and its fuel consumption, according to the computer as well as my calculations were in mid 6's l/100km (ca. 35MPG). Now after only one week back in my Cmax - I see 39MPG in a hybrid-style (a lot of gliding) driving. The question now is: is hybrid still better for me? The answer is: yes. I drive mostly in NJ and NY suburbs. And here the Cmax shines. In the case of the above mentioned Peugeot - it would be worse. BUT - the price. The equivalent of that pretty basic Peugeot in this country costs less (several thousands less money) and you have to be a committed tree-hugger to be still willing to pay extra money.

 

What will my next car be after the lease is up some time in 2016? As of now I would be leaning towards a regular, small car with a good equipment. 

[DaveofDurham]

 

What will my next car be after the lease is up some time in 2016? As of now I would be leaning towards a regular, small car with a good equipment. 

 

Oh, you are leasing.  I suppose that could affect how things play out under a state lemon law.

[pjurek99]

Oh, you are leasing.  I suppose that could affect how things play out under a state lemon law.

 

Did I not mention it before? I don't know...

 

It was because of the lease. You are right.

The Ford won the case because they will avoid the situation when they would have to label the care as lemon.

 

What they reimbursed covers virtually every lease payment for the car during the 12-month part of the lease. That is cheaper for them than re-purchasing the car + losing on its sale in the future.

Edited September 1, 2014 by pjurek99

[kostby]

Recently i purchased a new car but there was some defect in it. Lemon law is really a good law to clam a new car. In this process a firm Lemonade Maker help me a lot in claiming process.

 

MODERATOR ALERT!!!

 

I strongly believe that this is just an advertisement.

 

There is no mention of C-MAX.

What is the year, model, options, if any, and the specific problems encountered?

 

Yes, a condition of a successful settlement might be not to discuss the details OF THE SETTLEMENT, but that in no way prohibits one from listing the year, model, options if any, the specific problems encountered, the number of attempts to repair, and the total number of days out-of-service.

 

I also find it interesting that a New York/New Jersey law firm would be handling a simple Lemon Law claim in Destin FL. Not impossible, but suspect.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Jus-A-CMax

[Jus-A-CMax]

Thanks for the headsup, post updated and user banzored.