Lemon Law & Buy Back Info and Experience

[BullDurham]

I recently completed a lemon-law repurchase of my C-Max, and I wanted to describe the process I went through for the benefit of others who may be considering it.

 

Under most state lemon laws, if there have been four attempts to fix the vehicle, and it is still not fixed, the manufacturer must buy it back, if that’s what the consumer chooses.  My fourth incident occurred on the 4th of July, and my dealer kept the car for almost two weeks after that trying every possible solution.  They were in contact with Ford throughout this process, and at the end, someone from Ford (the company, not the dealer) called me and said that they were unable to solve the problem.  They had gotten the car running, of course, by recharging the battery, but they could not assure me that the problem would not reoccur.  Ford also told my dealer that their engineers were working on a solution to the problem, and expected to have one by October.  Since it is now November, and I haven’t read an announcement of a solution, I assume that they are still working on it.  

 

I chose to pursue a buyback by going through the Better Business Bureau Autoline Arbitration process that is outlined in the C-Max manual.  At first this worked well.  After I got my car back from the dealer, I mailed the paperwork to the BBB on July 24.  They emailed me when they received it, and said they would let me know when they heard from Ford.  They set an arbitration hearing date of September 3.  Ford’s first response was to offer to send an engineer to look at my car.  I turned that down, and told the BBB that I wanted to go forward with the arbitration hearing.  On August 22, the BBB called me and said Ford had agreed to repurchase the car.  I received an official notice of this on August 26, and so we cancelled the arbitration hearing.  

 

All that remained to be done was to complete some paperwork, agree on a buyback price (which is determined by a formula outlined by the BBB in their Autoline booklet) and complete the buyback.  How long should that take?  A week, perhaps?  In fact, it took more than two exasperating months. Ford outsources this work to a company by the name of Aditya Birla Minacs.  To say that they had no sense of urgency is to put it mildly.  First, the person who was supposed to handle my case was out of the office for a couple of weeks.  Then when he came back, after two calls from me, he told me that the paperwork from the BBB was hard to read.  I re-sent it.  Finally, in early October he sent me a buyback proposal that was $1000 less than what it should have been.  I told him it was unacceptable, and I asked the BBB person to look into it.  The BBB person said he would, and that’s the last I ever heard from him.  I told the man from Aditya Birla Minacs that if we didn’t get this straightened out, I’d get a lawyer.  Finally his supervisor intervened, and we got a correct amount.  It then took another week to get the documents signed, and for me to receive my check.  That finally happened on October 30.  So it was more than three months after I started the process, but most of that time was just wasted time.  We should have been able to wrap this up in early September.  

 

So here are my takeaways:

 

The BBB Autoline:  They were very responsive at first, and then completely non-responsive at the end.  This makes it hard to recommend them, because the whole thing could have fallen apart when they didn’t respond.

 

Aditya Birla Minacs:  Ford should get someone else.  These people identify themselves as the “Ford Buyback Department,” and so their performance reflects badly on Ford.

 

Ford:    Given what an awful problem this is, Ford ought to make a far greater effort to help their customers.  Understand this:  Ford did not buy back my car out of the goodness of their heart.  Under North Carolina’s lemon law, they had to buy it back.  So the only question that Ford ought to consider is whether they want their customers to feel like Ford was really trying to help them, or whether they think Ford was just grudgingly doing what they had to do.  In my opinion, the woman from Ford who called to tell me in July that they couldn’t fix the car should have offered on the spot to buy it back or replace it.  No arbitration, no BBB, no Aditya Birla Minacs, just ”we’re going to try to help you right away.”  It wouldn’t have cost them any more money, and I would certainly feel better about Ford.  One final example of how Ford’s mindset is all wrong:  The woman (supervisor) from Aditya Birla Minacs told me that they had overnighted the check to my dealer, and the dealer should call me when they received it.  I didn’t get a call the next day.  I called the dealer myself, got sent to voicemail, left a message, and got no call back.  So I sent a PM to the Ford representative on this website, and asked her if she would call the dealer and see if the check had arrived.  This may sound impatient on my part, but I had been waiting a couple of months already, the check was for almost $25,000 (which is not chump change) and I didn’t want it to go astray.  The dealer has several branches, and I had visions of it going to the wrong one.  What did the Ford representative on this site tell me?  “I've noted this in your case. However, as this is concerning a legal request, I’m unable to assist further via social media.”  Legal request?  Oh, please.  As a courtesy, I was asking if she could just ask the dealer if they got the check.  That’s the final communication I’ve had from Ford, and it will stick in my mind (and my craw) for a long time. 

 

Other Owners With This Problem:  You can win your case.  But be careful about some of the advice being given on this website.  One person tells you over and over again to just buy a battery charger, recharge your battery when it drains, and then be on your way.  Here’s the problem with that:  if you don’t take it to the dealer, and give them a chance to fix it, it doesn’t count towards the required four incidents, and four attempts to fix it.  I received a PM from someone who was having this problem, but had recharged his own battery, and therefore the dealer had no record of the problem, and no attempted fix.  At this point, he can’t request a buyback or replacement even though the battery has drained more than four times.  Once the car is older than two years or 24,000 miles, you may not be able to get a buyback or replacement at all.  So I advise everyone who has this problem, to call Ford Roadside Assistance and have the car towed to the dealer.  If you take the car in for something else, have the dealer check the battery, and if it is partially drained, have them try to “fix” it.   I assume that Ford will eventually solve the problem.  But, then again, they claimed that they had a fix in December of 2013, and obviously they didn’t.  They told my dealer they would have a fix by October, and they don’t.  I wouldn’t like to bet the price of a car that they’ll fix it. 

[stevedebi]

In California, it is three repair attempts for a serious problem in the first year, or 30 days total out of service at the dealer, again in the first year.

[BullDurham]

In California, it is three repair attempts for a serious problem in the first year, or 30 days total out of service at the dealer, again in the first year.

It varies state by state.  Check your state's lemon law.  The booklet I received from the BBB, "How BBB Auto Line Works," says "for all states except California."  I don't know what, if anything, the BBB does in California.

[stevedebi]

It varies state by state.  Check your state's lemon law.  The booklet I received from the BBB, "How BBB Auto Line Works," says "for all states except California."  I don't know what, if anything, the BBB does in California.

I don't know what the BBB does here either, and I hope I don't ever need to find out!

 

I was just providing information for those of us here in LA LA land.

[salman]

three comments

 

1) Mr Debi's description of the California Lemon Law is wrong. Claims are not restricted to the first year and the number of repair attempts required in non-life-threatening cases is generally at least 4.

 

2) Don't believe me or anyone else. Look up your state's lemon law yourself. Here is the california department of consumer affairs page about the California law:

http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon

 

3) BullDurham's advice about the battery charger stuff is absolutely correct. If you have dead 12 volt problems, get the car towed to the dealer whenever possible and either have the dealer fix the problem or, after enough attempts fail, consider getting a buy back or replacement. (it seems to me the problem can be fixed. It is about 7 months since my current CMax has had a problem. Details on the thread from April and May 2014). But if anyone would rather use battery chargers & jumpers, that's up to you.

[stevedebi]

three comments

 

1) Mr Debi's description of the California Lemon Law is wrong. Claims are not restricted to the first year and the number of repair attempts required in non-life-threatening cases is generally at least 4.

 

2) Don't believe me or anyone else. Look up your state's lemon law yourself. Here is the california department of consumer affairs page about the California law:

http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon

 

3) BullDurham's advice about the battery charger stuff is absolutely correct. If you have dead 12 volt problems, get the car towed to the dealer whenever possible and either have the dealer fix the problem or, after enough attempts fail, consider getting a buy back or replacement. (it seems to me the problem can be fixed. It is about 7 months since my current CMax has had a problem. Details on the thread from April and May 2014). But if anyone would rather use battery chargers & jumpers, that's up to you.

Thanks for pointing this out. You are right.

 

It is a bit more complex than either of our two posts. Odd, I looked this up a couple of years ago; I must have misread the web pages, or those pages got it wrong.

 

They note that in general the provision of the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act run for the length of the warranty, and that these are only guides - consult an attorney to be sure.

 

I think it is worthwile to quote a bit more of the URL:

 

"The "Lemon Law" applies to these problems if they arise during the first 18 months after the consumer received delivery of the vehicle or within the first 18,000 miles on the odometer, whichever occurs first. During the first 18 months or 18,000 miles, the "Lemon Law" presumes that a manufacturer has had a reasonable number of attempts to repair the vehicle if either (1) The same problem results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven and the problem has been subject to repair two or more times by the manufacturer or its agents, and the buyer or lessee has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or (2) The same problem has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents and the buyer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or (3) The vehicle is out of service because of the repair of any number of problems by the manufacturer or its agents for a cumulative total of more than 30 days since delivery of the vehicle."

 

So considering this, it is important that the owner notify the manufacturer at least once. I presume this means direct contact, not through the dealer.

Edited November 14, 2014 by stevedebi

[cmax123]

I am very impressed with you guys that went through the lengthy process under the lemon law. My wife and I have decided to trade our 2013 cmax se in on a Prius. 10 visits (multiple problems on most visits) to the dealer in 20 months of ownership. We love the way the car rides and handles, but feel like we're being held hostage by our car. We are disgusted with all we've been through (fighting for a loaner car, taking 3 days to complete a repair that ford allots 2 hours for in their TSB) W e know we'll take a financial hit but we need something reliable. My wife likes the car so much , she wanted to trade it for a new one. I'm kinda of the mindset " first ford, last ford" . S he's on board with the Prius now. It's a shame because thecmax rides better, accelerates quicker and is quieter. After each repair, we would say,"this may be the last one." Now we have no faith that their will be a last repair.

[Maxy]

 Thank you Salman for the great, detailed info on going through with the lemon law. I am currently waiting to hear from my assigned dealer representative about replacing my c-max. So far my experience has been pretty straight forward. I did exactly what salman suggested. I had all my documents in order and after 4 weeks of my request I received the buy back offer. I am giving the c-max another try, because I really like the car. I hope I will not regret it! This time I will get the upgraded one since it seems like the basic ones with the small screen have the most problems. If the dead battery problem will remain I will just have to look somewhere else. Time will tell.

[Kelleytoons]

. I'm kinda of the mindset " first ford, last ford" .

Wait until you get older (LOL)

 

At my age if I followed that philosophy I'd have run out of car makers a long time ago (and, yes, one of those lemons was a Toyota or as I like to refer to that maker now, the "Toy"car company).

 

Every company has "Monday" cars - actually, if you were smart you would have followed your wife's advice, as the odds were much better you would have gotten a good one.  Kind of like Garp:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBSAeqdcZAM

[Jus-A-CMax]

Even the high end car manufacturers is not immune to :spend: Monday cars, I had one from Jaguar. Trying paying that sort of money. If I had a negative attitude, I would not have bought 2 more Jaguars afterward but people are people - they wanna get mad.

 

Now, I did have OUTSTANDING service from Galpin Jaguar throughout, even our 4th car - our :airquote: Found On Rubbish Dump CMax :flyaway: is a Galpin - goes to show what a huge difference a dealer can make to your attitude and where you buy from. Good luck to all the people trading back their cars, c'est la vie.

[Kelleytoons]

Yeah, I have to say that the C-Max is actually the best overall experience I've ever had buying and driving a car (yes, early days yet but this includes the whole buying experience which was a real PITA in the past).  This is my first Ford and unlikely to be my last no matter what ever happens to it.

 

My longest lasting car in my half century of ownership is our Durango -- had it 14 years now and I'm hoping for another three or four (now that Maximis is our fav :>).  But I hate the Dodge dealer here and didn't even think about buying another one in our quest for a new car. 

 

I think you need to try and be reasonable and not let your experiences cloud your judgement -- much easier to say than do <g>.

[jmjdail]

I wanted to thank everyone who has posted on this forum about their lemon law experience. I bought my 2013 CMax SEL April 2014. Love the car until it rained and I got a really bad odor in it. No battery issues but had some other issues with my car. In Sept I contacted customer care line and opened a case thinking that was the start to my lemon law. It was the 3rd time in the shop for the same issue . They had my car 30 days in the shop this time. I got my car back and 30 days later I had the same problem I took it back to the dealership and was told they did not know what else to do to fix my car. I told them that I thought I started the lemon law process with customer care and was told no I have to go through legal. I mailed my paperwork to legal 11/12 I received a voicemail stating they received my paperwork and an engineer out be out to look at my car. That was on 11/17 on 12/9 (29 days) I recieved a call finally telling me that I could come get my car that they could not find anything wrong. I asked what my next step was because I knew Ford was not going to be able to fix my car and was told BBB. I went online and filled out all the paperwork with BBB 12/11 I received an email 12/12 outlining what information they needed. I faxed all the paperwork off 12/16 and received a call today (12/18) that Ford has agreed to replace my CMax. 8 months of ownership and 110 days in the shop I am finally getting somewhere. Now its a waiting game on the paperwork to replace my ford. I however have decided not to try another CMax but will stay loyal to Ford. I am hoping this part of the process does not take too long as they are calling for more rain next week and I can not deal with the odor the rain causes. I will update once I get my replacement.

[DaveofDurham]

jmjdail - do you park your car near or under trees?

 

The reason I ask is that a lot of "tree debris" gets stuck in the "hinge pockets" (area where the hood hinges connect to the body). This is a big problem for me. When my dealer cleaned the debris out for me the first spring I had the car, they told me that when the debris blocks the drain slot (which in my opinion is very small and easily blocked) that water could get into places where it should not be (such as the passenger compartment).

 

If water has gotten into a place where you cannot see or feel it, that could be a source of odor in your car. I have not had any water get into my car and have not had any odor issues. I have had a few times where one or both of the drain slots have been blocked and after rain I found a pool of water that could not drain.

 

For more info on tree issues see old thread titled "tree debris"

[jmjdail]

DaveofDurham - no trees or debris. That was one of the first things the dealership checked. I actually have mold growing on my gas door. Water is getting in through somewhere near the gas tank. My car has been taken almost completely apart trying to figure out where the water is coming from but have not been able to find anything.

[Kelleytoons]

As I always say, the absolute BEST time to try something again is after you've had an extraordinary bad experience with it.  By that I mean an occurrence which is not the norm, because the odds of something like that happening again to you are drastically less.

 

It's what I like to call the "World According to Garp" theory (which I've pasted here in another thread but I think it's worth revisiting):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBSAeqdcZAM

 

If I were you I'd definitely get another C-Max (and I'm only half tongue-in-cheek here, as another Ice Storm C-Max owner in Florida I would never consider anything else).

[hybridbear]

As I always say, the absolute BEST time to try something again is after you've had an extraordinary bad experience with it.  By that I mean an occurrence which is not the norm, because the odds of something like that happening again to you are drastically less.

This statement is 100% wrong. This belief is called The Gambler's Fallacy. The fact that this person bought one C-Max that was a lemon has no bearing on the likelihood of a subsequent C-Max being a lemon. Take coin flipping as an example. The odds of flipping heads is 1 in 2. The odds of flipping HH is 1 in 4. The other options are TT, HT or TH. The reason the probability of getting HH is 1/4 is because you're examining a specific sequence of results. After you flip the first H your odds of flipping H again are still exactly the same, 1/2. 

 

Suppose the C-Max has a 1/10,000 lemon occurrence rate. The chance that jmjdail ends up with another lemon C-Max is still 1/10,000 for this purchase. Buying one lemon C-Max is very unlikely, however, once it has happened, that doesn't change the odds of buying another lemon C-Max.

 

Read this blog post for more info.

[Kelleytoons]

Nah, I know all about that (I was a math major).

 

The problem is you're confusing facts with Garp.  Trust me, Garp is *always* right <g>.

[Kelleytoons]

And actually, all seriousness aside, you missed the point of my post completely.

 

Trying to make a decision about any ONE thing based on a SINGLE INCIDENT is more of a fallacy than assuming lightning won't strike twice in the same place (which, actually, is more common than most folks think).  I was just trying to show that just because you get a lemon doesn't mean you run away in the opposite direction but, rather, assume you will *not* be than unlucky again.

 

While that poster didn't demonstrate it completely, we've seen other folks who say "well, I'll never buy another Ford again" as if a sample size of one made a convincing case.  I totally understand folks who get frustrated by any single experience, but it's hardly a scientific way of approaching life.

 

If you like a certain thing otherwise then having a single problem which no one else is having (or even few are having) convinces you not to try it again you just aren't thinking right (and missing out on a lot of good things).  I had a similar situation with a pair of headphones I loved but had an issue with BT skipping.  Few else were having this problem so I tried again with another pair.  It was only after the third pair (and many attempts at solving the problem with the maker) that I finally gave up (because, as I said, I really liked everything else about them).

 

Hopefully I'd be that patient with my Max if and when I have any difficulties.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Kelleytoons

[stevedebi]

As I always say, the absolute BEST time to try something again is after you've had an extraordinary bad experience with it.  By that I mean an occurrence which is not the norm, because the odds of something like that happening again to you are drastically less.

 

It's what I like to call the "World According to Garp" theory (which I've pasted here in another thread but I think it's worth revisiting):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBSAeqdcZAM

 

If I were you I'd definitely get another C-Max (and I'm only half tongue-in-cheek here, as another Ice Storm C-Max owner in Florida I would never consider anything else).

But if it is a new 2015 it won't be Ice Storm since they discontinued the color.

[Kelleytoons]

Yeah... although truth be told as much as I'm glad we have that color (and would pick it again) I'm thinking that the next car I get will be a candy apple red.  Been a long time since I've had a red car -- so perhaps that will be my wife's new car.

 

We both wanted the blue that the Honda came in -- truly gorgeous and a shame the C-Max doesn't come in the same color (neither one of us liked the blue the C-Max has).  I guess if you had lots of money you could paint your car whatever you want...

[jmjdail]

Update on CMax replacement

My chapter of the CMax is over, I took possession of my new Explorer on the 8th 3 weeks from the date Ford agreed to replace my CMax. If I could go back in time I would would of agreed to a repurchase rather then a replacement. I lost all incentives Ford was offering on the Explorers,so we had to pay full MSRP. But I am glad that this chapter has ended and I am in a clean smelling vehicle.

[stevedebi]

Update on CMax replacement

My chapter of the CMax is over, I took possession of my new Explorer on the 8th 3 weeks from the date Ford agreed to replace my CMax. If I could go back in time I would would of agreed to a repurchase rather then a replacement. I lost all incentives Ford was offering on the Explorers,so we had to pay full MSRP. But I am glad that this chapter has ended and I am in a clean smelling vehicle.

Wow, a C-Max and an Explorer are entirely different classes of vehicle! Why did you go so large after the smaller C-Max?

[AS2014]

This is one thread that needs to die, It has gotten really old about buy backs. The problem I see you did not like the car in the first place, because if you did you would have gotten another C Max. I own a 2013 CMax SE now with 32000 miles and have not had a battery problem, but I do not leave stuff plug into my car like an office and always turn my radio, air off before leaving car just

Iike I done with all my previous automobiles One other thing my car is left in the garage for weeks at a time and starts every time . So yes I am saying it, it Is a damn good car and I for one rather see threads about members enjoying their C Max. In closing yes there are lemons not only on cars , but everything, just because you got a Monday car does not mean all of the CMax are bad, from what I read in this past year a lot of you had more problems with dealers not knowing what to do. Have a good day....

[Kelleytoons]

Well, as much as I love Maximis I think this thread is okay to still live -- folks will always have lemons (and, as you point out, in every maker and model) and it's good to know what the procedures are and what luck others have had, regardless of whether they then choose something else completely or stick with Max (like you, I'd stick with the C-Max but it's also okay if someone is "burned" to the extent they'd like to try something else.  Heck, the last guy even stayed with Ford, which shows *some* loyalty/sense).

[Adrian_L]

Wait until you get older (LOL)

 

At my age if I followed that philosophy I'd have run out of car makers a long time ago (and, yes, one of those lemons was a Toyota or as I like to refer to that maker now, the "Toy"car company).

 

Every company has "Monday" cars - actually, if you were smart you would have followed your wife's advice, as the odds were much better you would have gotten a good one.  Kind of like Garp:

 

Come on.....nobody thinks like this. You have endless problems with a Pioneer stereo and you think "oh I just got a bad one.....the next one will be fine"!?

 

No way...what you actually think is "Pioneer is junk!... Sony next time"

 

I love my C-max and haven't had a single problem in 10 months.......but if I had 7 battery failures? Adios, Maxine.

 

Or to look at it another way:  your first girlfriend is a promiscuous, compulsive-lying so-and-so.  It don't mean the next one is going to be Claudia Cardinale.  The next one could be even worse....

Edited January 22, 2015 by Adrian_L