CMax MPG lawsuits my thoughts

[mtb9153]

I'm sorry, I just have to get something off my chest...

 

I spoke yesterday with a lady who told me she is involved in a case with a CMax owner who is actively seeking legal compensation from Ford.  Claiming she was blatantly misled to thinking 47/47mpg was possible from her CMax.  Her claim is she barely pulls out mid 30's on a regular basis.  I quickly said to this lady that if that is her belief, then she doesn't know how to achieve 47mpg from her CMax.  Because I do it all the time or I did during the summer and fall months.  Now in the throws of winter with cooler temps in Northern California it isn't happening like I'd like to see.  Granted we don't deal with the frigid temps of the midwest and further north to the great Canadian border like allot of our friends and owners.  Those are totally different circumstances, of which I have little knowledge of how to overcome in the quest for the elusive number 47.  I venture it isn't possible in the dead of winter.

 

Here in California I was not getting 40's or even dreaming of 50's as many of you know from my constant whining on this forum.  But thanks to the teachings of mileage wizards like Brother Jus, Paul, Matt and many others who's names escape me, but whom I had the privilege of learning from, helped turn things around.  Once I learned the trick and found "The Sweet Spot"...things changed for Maxus and Me.

 

These beastie's require a talented and patient foot, with emphasis on the the word patient.  You must drive precisely and think ahead as you are driving.  Plan your driving, braking and acceleration.  All while driving over land as level as you can and still get where you need to go.  Plan out your driving route. 

 

I found that driving at the speed limit 100% of the time, not just some of the time, which came as a very hard lesson to learn for a speed freak like me from the 80's.  Not nailing the pedal but slowly pulling out from a stop and while pissing off all the people late for work as I methodically increase my speed to the posted limit over a longer distance, makes a big difference.  In the same respect it goes for braking too.  Plan your breaking over a longer distance and do it gradually, not mashing the pedal but lightly increasing the pedal to bring yourself to a stop, which is still something I still wrestle with.  By not doing this is a sure way to loose Avg MPG numbers on your dashboard and loose your leaves.

 

Now I know none of what I've shared here comes as a surprise to anyone who has frequented the high mileage Hall of Fame.  But I just have very little patience for owners who claim it can't be done because I was one of them.  Also that they were lied too by Ford dealers at the time they signed their purchase agreement.  It all boils down to what you know and if you want to get the MPG that the EPA Regulators posted was possible.  Lastly how badly you want it and if you are willing to work at it?  Because driving like a regular gas car driver won't get you there in a CMax, simple as that.  It's a new driving style and experience my friends.  End of Sermon.

 

Happy CMaxing... :shift:

 

 

[catsailor]

A C Max in the hands of a non hybrid enthusiast can be very damaging because at 188 hp combined its got plenty of power to seduce you to do bad things FE-wise. I get the +45 in Spring Summer and Fall.... no problem at all. Ford introducing this car late Sept 2011 did not help their own cause without a BOLD weather disclaimer :)

 

Is the suit going to hold up....I bet not.

[Laurel]

mtb9153 you make excellent points.  I think that catsailor has the crux of the issue nailed down though.  A hybrid enthusiast can achieve the mileage advertised (with the revised mileage) but Joe citizen cannot.  From my perspective I think Ford does a disservice to buyers by not having dealership sales people talk about driving a hybrid and how there is a set of skills required.  When we bought we knew nothing about hybrids and our sales person was in the same position with probably less knowledge than us.  This can create those owners who are none hybrid enthusiasts who wind up foaming at the mouth due to poor mileage. I think there our tons of people like me who adhere to things taught on the forum when we have time, but find it truly annoying to find that low climate temperatures and use of air conditioning affect mileage so drastically and Ford never told us these things when buying. I know some forum members have said it is up to buyers to learn all this before going in to buy a car, but I honestly don't think that is done by many of us. I also understand that if sales people told buyers that you have to learn a whole new driving skill set to achieve mileage as reported that many potential buyers would say forget it.  So I'm not sure what the answer is to the disappointed buyer group who is suing.

 

I think Ford could have advertised the C-Max as a more luxurious comfortable and powerful hybrid and still have had a huge customer interest.  I find people are really cranky about mileage issues. 

Edited January 4, 2014 by Laurel

[Jus-A-CMax]

Brother MIke hit it on the head, exactly. One thing I will add is that this car and any other hybrid car, its a Behavioural Situation Awareness (BSA).

 

wtf are u talking about Willis? <- remember that show?

 

BSA is all about responding to the driving (situation). For example, you're going down a city street, 500 yards ahead you spot the pedestrian lights flashing, car is in front of you and there is an open left lane.

 

Gas drivers you'll veer left and gun to towards the now red lights, brake hard.

 

Hybrid drivers would say "ok" I am behind this guy, I'll stay behind him and use him as a wind shied. This will better my EV mode and I'll cruise and kick in the brakes early and who knows if this guy infront does it right we may time it intime to get a green light.

 

Gas driver behaviour can be described in 1 sentence. While the hybrid driver can be described in 2 long sentences.

 

It takes time and willingness to learn to become that hybrid driver. Most new hybrid owners in the 1st 6 months are like gas drivers still. The WISE ones come to this forum to seek help and learn a thing or 2 about their new car.

 

In regards to AC and FWS (forced warm air)...those who drive the competitor also experience similar MPG losses, I would hesitate to guess. You cannot have a power sucking function on that drains the amps and still expect great MPG. You can try and mitigate it with more regen EV mode but it will suck regardless, lord knows, I tried in those killer 100+F days here in the valley.

 

My 2c.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Jus-A-CMax

[Laurel]

Jus I can't argue with anything you say.  I think once a person plunges in, buys a hybrid, and learns to drive it it does change your perspective about cars and it is interesting to learn.  But I do believe there is a huge lack of information for new hybrid drivers being put out by manufacturers whether it be Ford or Toyota.  I think most of us think "oh I'll buy a hybrid and get great mileage automatically because that is the way the car is built".  If I was king of Ford, I would do a huge advertising blitz about hybrids and how to improve mileage and learning the hybrid lifestyle.  I would get guys like you and Nick and Paul  and Adair ,photomoto etc. to do some commercials showing the learning curve and the owners love of the car once they know how to drive the car.  I would convert gas drivers and talk about our eco system etc. and how we all can do our small bits to consume less energy. 

[Jus-A-CMax]

Laurel, great points and I liked your post earlier...I agree, its a total lack of information! Unfortunately we are not King Alan and if anything, we are grassroots. We own our vehicles and we want to make it work since we got 2 bobs in the hat now.

 

However, whos to say grassroots have NO power? Each of us here has put in their 2c and collectively, we made ourselves better drivers by listening, testing and learning and sharing. The latter is our POWER.

 

Also, going back to what you posted - I know of only person here whos worked with a dealership to have him teach the new hybrid drivers "how to drive" and that's Matt aka Recumpence. I believe he did a workshop for them and the new CMax owenrs. I like to do one but I have never been asked by Galpin and trust me, they know I NUKE the MPGs in this car from back in the 600s, 700s and then the 800s days.

 

My last point is that we live in an "Apple" world now. I am still from the PC world, I believe in the FREEDOM of tweaking and setting my own PC while Applesiders want a "one button" does all. New CMax owners want the Applesider world and I will admit Prii does this by TAKING AWAY things such as performance for MPG and smaller size with less weight and EV to 45 mph (HEV). I do not want such a car - hence why I bought the CMax and I GO OUT and learn to drive a hybrid like everyone of you reading this post here.  My LIFETIME MPG is now 49.1, thats every kind of road, conditions, grades you name it over 23,000 miles. Am I special or own a special CMax, HELL no!

 

Those that do not want to learn, lack of knowledge about hybrids in inclimate weather = sue....which comes full circle to Brother Mike's Post #1.

 

PS Laurel, are we going to see you in our new CMax Bar and put up a picture?

Edited January 4, 2014 by Jus-A-CMax

[mtb9153]

Well put Jus :victory: but I do think Laurel has some valid comments.  Ford could have demonstrated a little more education for what it takes to get the most from a Hybrid, but I'm sure the greed of the almighty $$$ kept that from happening. Good comments both of you.  I still hate to see owners walking away from their purchase though because they feel cheated.

[Jus-A-CMax]

So do I Brother Mike, sometimes its better for these drivers to own a Prii over a CMax. There I said it...long live the Prii (hope Nick doesn't read this ;) ).

[ScubaDadMiami]

Ford would do well to put the equivalent of a training simulator in the showroom.  Give it a video game theme, and watch it sell itself.  They should also add some videos about driving techniques to all of the great videos that they have online. 

 

Ford also needs to train salespeople in a big way.  I am willing to bet that many :airquote: professionals :airquote: in the biz don't know enough about hybrids to effectively sell them.   (The first place that I tested the C-MAX made it sound like hybrids are the latest fad, and that they don't make sense unless you pay a big premium up front, and then wait for a long payback.  Who would want to buy a car like that? )

To most of them, it is yet another product to learn, and they would rather just push something that doesn't require learning anything new.  They don't understand the investment and payback that comes from it. 

[Mamalou16201]

I do think dealers should train you to drive the cmax, but I learned way more on this forum than they still know. We got our oil changed and got car inspected yesterday. I asked if they reset oil change monitor, of course they did not. When we bought cmax, I asked about the key in the fob missing, told them they had to order, they did not even know it should be there! They have only sold 2. I don't think they know anything about them. I hope we continue to have no problems!

[catsailor]

Can I add my 2 cents here. Now that I learned to drive a HYBRID I CAN'T drive my wife's SUV anymore because I can't plus and glide or hypermile it. So my habits are now geared around a CVT hybrid........

WHAT DO YOU GUYS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT....really can't drive a normal car anymore.

[ptjones]

Can I add my 2 cents here. Now that I learned to drive a HYBRID I CAN'T drive my wife's SUV anymore because I can't plus and glide or hypermile it. So my habits are now geared around a CVT hybrid........

WHAT DO YOU GUYS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT....really can't drive a normal car anymore.

This is Great, I know what you mean driving my wife's Explorer I just can't stop Hypermiling. LOL

 

I think I have talked to 15 dealers and all they are interested in is selling cars, not learning much about them to help customers out. They apparently feel  it's  FORD's job to tell customers what to do. ;)

 

Paul

Edited January 5, 2014 by ptjones

[C-MaxSea]

So do I Brother Mike, sometimes its better for these drivers to own a Prii over a CMax. There I said it...long live the Prii (hope Nick doesn't read this ;) ).

Peep, I'm here.  Like Jus infers here (and I agree 100%), Priiiiii are lean hollow shellish MPG machines (perfectly fine for many people); to which I add they are sold like pacifiers as are all Toyotas.  The current nauseating Toyota commercial features a guy at the dealership to 'buy a new car' - 'which one' the mother/girl friend figure asks, he replies "I don't know" - no idea, no clue, 'What are you (over there) buying?'  A purely social buying experience - guess that is all that matters now - (brilliant marketing on Toyotas part)  ........... Argh !     Quit ranting Nick !!!

 

(Please can I keep my beautiful not-so-little, brilliantly designed & engineered muscle hybrid C-Max that allows me to drive any way I want short of flying...... handle, comfort, ride, head room ............ pretty please? Oh, and please pass the Poupan)

 

(PS  65 miles today, 46+ MPG, 32 - 40 degrees, Eco Cruise, 58-60 mph, no thinky, no stressed out brain, foot, ............. just watching for raptors along the freeway................ Ommmmm)

Edited January 6, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[C-MaxSea]

Link:
 

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/2976-coaching-tech-sessions/

 

[ptjones]

Link:

 

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/2976-coaching-tech-sessions/

 

 

You had me going there for a few seconds. LOL :lol:

 

Paul

[Jus-A-CMax]

:worship:  Nick writes some of the funniest posts & threads....but I digress...thought this was The Bar thread for a moment...back to the topic.... :spend:

[HPRifleman]

These mileage lawsuits demonstrate the dangerous combination of ignorant consumers and ambulance chasing attorneys.

 

We do have to remember that most of us are hybrid enthusiasts. As such we try to educate ourselves about our cars and we realize that the technology is a departure from the previous 100 year history of the automobile. Making the general public aware that hybrids require modified driving habits is a huge undertaking that will take time. Patience will be required.

[fbov]

Can I add my 2 cents here. Now that I learned to drive a HYBRID I CAN'T drive my wife's SUV anymore because I can't plus and glide or hypermile it. So my habits are now geared around a CVT hybrid........

WHAT DO YOU GUYS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT....really can't drive a normal car anymore.

Having learned to drive a hybrid, we can be sure that you're trainable... given enough time, you can re-learn to drive like you used to, but would you want to?

 

The question becomes more interesting when combined with a little personal evolution, the idea that once we learn things, they can't be unlearned. Once you become aware of your personal impact on the universe, there's a desire to optimize it, harmonize your life with the world around you. Find the path of least resistance and discover how easily you can live with where it takes you.

 

At least I do. There are times when hybrid is bliss...

 

Have fun,

Frank

[Jus-A-CMax]

Having learned to drive a hybrid, we can be sure that you're trainable... given enough time, you can re-learn to drive like you used to, but would you want to?

 

The question becomes more interesting when combined with a little personal evolution, the idea that once we learn things, they can't be unlearned. Once you become aware of your personal impact on the universe, there's a desire to optimize it, harmonize your life with the world around you. Find the path of least resistance and discover how easily you can live with where it takes you.

 

At least I do. There are times when hybrid is bliss...

 

Have fun,

Frank

 

In that case...I may want to get the STI Ltd then...or the EVO....or the GTR......hmmmh.... :drool:

[BIG ROCCO]

I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect people to change their driving habits...maybe...just not sure.  We just drive our C-Max normally, but try not to hit the gas too hard or drive too fast (try to keep it at 65-70 MPH on the highway).  I kind of think of it as "go with the flow" - drive at what feels and sounds comfortable for the car without pushing it too hard.  We are at ~ 6,000 miles driven so far.  We routinely get 45-47 MPG.    I'm sure we could do better if we "learned how to drive a hybrid", but we are happy with where we're at.

 

What I can't understand is:  How do people (and Consumer Reports) get mid 30s MPG?

[Ldcarson]

It's about the advertising. If you make a product and a claim, you need to add what the requirements are. I.e. 47mpg, BUT must be trained hybrid driver. Most people buy a car and expect to get what is advertised. I love my energi, but am only gettin 34 mpg ...that goes up when I have a charged battery, but I can get into a Prius and drve 50 mpg without breaking a sweat...

 

So 34 mpg??? Am chalking it up to cold weather right now, have only had the car 3 weeks, bought second hand with 4k on the clock...so we shall see.

[allyoop]

With 1200 miles on the clock we squeezed almost 42 mpg from the last tankful, and based on wisdom from other members I expect that to increase as what I fondly call "The Blob" gets broken in. The other variable is our driving style, which thanks to the Engage display is improving. I've learned to roll the throttle back to enter EV mode, then ease back on the pedal in EV -- especially effective in city traffic. I've always gone easy in braking, so 100 percent recharge is easy to nail. It's a far cry from the drag race stats I used to follow (9.8 E.T. at 134 mph, etc) but still a matter of skill and practice.

 

I've never believed I could hit the 47 mpg level, but blowing by the 38 mpg claimed by Consumer Reports has been satisfying indeed. I don't like lawsuits of this sort. Not at all.

[fbov]

16.7 sec. @ 86 mph isn't bad for a hybrid... and it was faster than it's larger, heavier, "higher-mileage" sibling, per Car and Driver. Now quite Camray Hybrid territory... but there's something odd talking 1/4 mile times for hybrids.  

 

Have fun,

Frank

Edited January 8, 2014 by fbov

[ptjones]

It's about the advertising. If you make a product and a claim, you need to add what the requirements are. I.e. 47mpg, BUT must be trained hybrid driver. Most people buy a car and expect to get what is advertised. I love my energi, but am only gettin 34 mpg ...that goes up when I have a charged battery, but I can get into a Prius and drve 50 mpg without breaking a sweat...

 

So 34 mpg??? Am chalking it up to cold weather right now, have only had the car 3 weeks, bought second hand with 4k on the clock...so we shall see.

It would be nice if one of the Energi members would try Grill Covers to see how much of a difference it would make in MPG's. :)

 

Paul

[C-MaxSea]

I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect people to change their driving habits...maybe...just not sure.  We just drive our C-Max normally, but try not to hit the gas too hard or drive too fast (try to keep it at 65-70 MPH on the highway).  I kind of think of it as "go with the flow" - drive at what feels and sounds comfortable for the car without pushing it too hard.  We are at ~ 6,000 miles driven so far.  We routinely get 45-47 MPG.    I'm sure we could do better if we "learned how to drive a hybrid", but we are happy with where we're at.

 

What I can't understand is:  How do people (and Consumer Reports) get mid 30s MPG?

 

Like your take Big Rocco; and I think it is reasonable to expect a 'moderated driving style' for driving a hybrid - a radically significantly different propulsion system which involves regenerative processes. You described it to a 'T'; nothing fancy, just careful braking & careful acceleration and mid 40's mpg.  We simply Ecocruise - no P & G, no 'hypermiling', no special tricks, no aero dodads (yet).  Other than the 'Midwest Winters' and remote starters, we too can not understand the mid 30's stuff.  Nick

Edited January 10, 2014 by C-MaxSea