High Transmission Temperature

[SPL Tech]

 

 

So why not switch to synthetic ATF and forget about temp?

 

 

As to "theories", was the change from 62 to 85 mph EV linked to the improved bearing (or whatever it was)?

Isint the stock ATF synthetic anyway? The 62 to 85 was a software update, nothing more. It was part of the fuel economy update flash.

[hybridbear]

 

 

If there is a significant problem it is in FORD best interest money wise to fix the problem.  Recalls are very expensive.

 

Yesterday I drove 70mi. up the FWY in 90-95*F OT going 60-80mph and TFT got to 190*F, coming back in the evening 85*F OT, TFT got to 180*F. Outside temps do effect TFT  a lot. 

 

I currently have top grill open, center grill blocked off and lower grill blocked off except 5 x 1.5" holes in the cover, it takes approx. 20+min. to get WT to 215*F. then I'm able to keep WT in the 215-225*F range most of the time.  This keeps the shutters open and allowing cooler air  to go through the Trans Cooler there by lowering the TFT.  :)

 

Paul

 

Have you tried an experiment where you remove all grille blocking and see what happens with TFT? The ICE obviously won't be as warm, but the TFT may also be cooler.

[hybridbear]

Also, should we always force an ICE start first thing to get the tranny lubricated?  Must the ICE run to thoroughly lubricate the transmission or just to pump fluid through the cooler?

The pump that runs when the ICE is on is just for cooling the eCVT. The fluid is naturally kicked up by the spinning gears when the car is in motion. There is no pump that circulates fluid.

[ptjones]

Why dont you just change the tranny fluid more often and skip all this taping nonsense? The reason why trannys fail from high temp is not that the trannies are hot, but because the temp breaks down the oil and the oil stops providing lubrication benefits. So change the oil every 50k and the high temp is not an issue.

Transmissions are failing with 30Kmi. and changing Trans Fluid is a little difficult too.  FORD calls for changing it at 150Kmi.  Next question is why is my Trans running hotter than others?

 

One passive idea is to glue aluminum thin wall L-brackets to the bottom of Trans to provide extra cooling surface area. Simple to do and can be done for a few dollars. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

Have you tried an experiment where you remove all grille blocking and see what happens with TFT? The ICE obviously won't be as warm, but the TFT may also be cooler.

I have removed the lower cover where the Trans Cooler is, but the temps keep going up because shutters are closed.  I have removed both covers with A/C on which opens shutters and turns on fan.  This lowers both ICE(30-40*F) and TFT(10-20*F). Not an ideal solution driving around with your A/C on all the time.  I'm trying to turn this problem into a positive solution. :)

 

Paul

[SnowStorm]

The pump that runs when the ICE is on is just for cooling the eCVT. The fluid is naturally kicked up by the spinning gears when the car is in motion. There is no pump that circulates fluid.

Thanks for the pictures but why do you say that? The text under the picture says "The transmission fluid pump is turned by the input shaft and circulates transmission fluid through the transmission for lubrication and through an oil-to-air cooler ... for transmission cooling. The transmission fluid pump only operates when the engine is running." (emphisis added). Sounds like the engine needs to run for lubrication.

Edited June 23, 2015 by SnowStorm

[fbov]

The pump that runs when the ICE is on is just for cooling the eCVT. The fluid is naturally kicked up by the spinning gears when the car is in motion. There is no pump that circulates fluid.

You may want to read your attachments...

 

"The transmission fluid pump... circulates transmission fluid through the transmission for lubrication and through an oil-to-air cooler mounted in the front of the radiator for transmission cooling."

 

Paul, have you looked into the Energi aux pump?

 

Frank

Edited June 23, 2015 by fbov

[ptjones]

You may want to read your attachments...

 

"The transmission fluid pump... circulates transmission fluid through the transmission for lubrication and through an oil-to-air cooler mounted in the front of the radiator for transmission cooling."

 

Paul, have you looked into the Energi aux pump?

 

Frank

No I haven't, I need to check out the differences. :)

 

Paul

[SnowStorm]

Finally checked transmission cooling line temperatures (using all the great info here).  Conditions had been about 1.5 hours driving at 65 mph and 80F+/- ambient with some hills so in/out of EV regularly.  Stopped and felt the lines.  "Hot" one was quite warm but could keep my finger on it - other was much cooler, perhaps almost ambient.  Wild guess of 30F difference at least.  No OBDII data this time.

[SPL Tech]

Transmissions are failing with 30Kmi. and changing Trans Fluid is a little difficult too.  FORD calls for changing it at 150Kmi.  Next question is why is my Trans running hotter than others?

 

One passive idea is to glue aluminum thin wall L-brackets to the bottom of Trans to provide extra cooling surface area. Simple to do and can be done for a few dollars. :)

 

Paul

Okay, well since the ATF is too hard for you to change, just replace the tranny every 50k instead then (roll eyes). The best solution is replacing the ATF often. That is the only way to guarantee the tranny will get the lubricationit needs.

 

As far as trannys failing in 30k, only one did... out of a million. I wouldent call that a problem.

[ptjones]

Okay, well since the ATF is too hard for you to change, just replace the tranny every 50k instead then (roll eyes). The best solution is replacing the ATF often. That is the only way to guarantee the tranny will get the lubricationit needs.

 

As far as trannys failing in 30k, only one did... out of a million. I wouldent call that a problem.

Between CMAX/FFH + NRG's I don't think FORD has sold 200K units yet and we don't know what the mileage was for most of the Trans failures. Figuring out how to keep TFT cooler is less expensive and easier to do for me. :)

 

Paul 

[ptjones]

Here is my first step to trying to cool off TFT using 3/4"X6" aluminum L bracket and glueing them to bottom of Transmission. It will take atleast 3/4 hour FWY drive to see if it makes a difference.  This also adds 54 square inches of surface cooling area. :)

Aluminum L brackets and high temp. silicon rubber glue

Trans with no fins.

Trans with fins.

 

Paul

Edited July 5, 2015 by ptjones

[ls973800]

Won't the glue or silicone sealant that is holding those in place be a poor conductor of heat?

[ptjones]

Won't the glue or silicone sealant that is holding those in place be a poor conductor of heat?

It is very thin coating and I could feel almost immediately heat in fins as I installed them.  This also adds 54 square inches of surface cooling area. :)

 

Paul

[cheezy]

Last week I went to NY and back(2Kmi) and hit new high TFT of 199*F.  This last Thursday we left for AZ and stopped in OK for gas.  When I left the gas station to go back on I-40 I heard a noise I hadn't heard before and assumed it was the trans. I stopped in Albequerque at Rich Ford in Alberquerque, NM and they were kind enough to put it up on the rack and sure enough the trans is making noise. I desided to go another 400miles to AZ and see how it goes. I made it , but the Trans is noisier. I'm renting a Jetta to travel around AZ and will try driving MADMAX back to Georgia.

 

Here is the time line:

Started monitoring TFT(Trans Fluid Temp) at 90Kmi and noticed high temp problem.

97.2Kmi. first stated to hear trans noise.

97.6Kmi. Had noise verified by Rich FORD in Alberquerque, NM

98Kmi. noise is louder

Going to try to drive back to GA(1700mi) and have my dealer work on it there.

 

does anyone have ideas on what to do? ;)

 

Paul

 

  How about changing out the fluids? 

 

It's a little PITA and the fluid isn't cheap, but I don't see what is cheap about driving around "testing" a noisy trans.? 

 

Not to be a smart ass, but in the time spent posting about it, couldn't the fluid have been changed out already for process of elimination? Did you do that already and I've missed it? 

[C-MaxSea]

Great work & reporting Paul, and all contributors.  Hope to hear more on fluid specs, if that has not already been addressed, and their comparative benefits, if any (alluded to).  As we all know, tranny failures are common in other vehicles as well, our VW Eurovan model for one (don't know if anyone has ever monitored temps on it).  We are at 67k on our Eurovan, and are now planning to change the tranny fluid at 15 k intervals to hopefully extend the life of it out to 120k+.  Seems like a simple $100 a year or two solution (if you stay away from the VW dealer). 

 

Hmmmm, is extending the life of our C-Max trannies a good idea, or is it better to just buy ext. warranties & change them out ?  (Might Ford issue revised maintenance schedules accordingly - ;) )

 

Ultimately hope this is a limited issue,

 

Nick

Edited July 13, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[ptjones]

Sunday I made a trip, 70mi each way, up I-85 to I-285 to I-75 (5PM, 95*F two short rain showers) TFT  got up to 182*F averaged 55MPG.

Came back at 10PM, 85-79*F, TFT got up to 172*F and averaged 49.9mpg.  TFT is effected by outside temps. My high TFT was 193*F before I added 5x 1 5/8" holes in lower Grill Cover and in the lower ICE cover behind Trans and the cooling fins added to Trans.

 

cooling fins glued to Trans

:)

Paul 

Edited July 14, 2015 by ptjones

[ptjones]

Well I finally did it!   :yahoo:  I made the lower Grill Cover automatic by connecting it to the shutters so when they open the lower Grill Cover opens too.

 

 
Automatic Lower Grill Cover parts and fixture for making spacer rods.

 
Lower Grill Cover open

 
Lower Grill Cover open

 
Lower Grill Cover closed

 
Lower Grill Cover closed

 

 

Paul

Edited July 14, 2015 by ptjones

[cheezy]

 It does look like people who do a  lot of FWY driving are having the bulk of the problems, maybe all.

 

I like the idea of using synthetic AFT, it couldn't hurt.  I don't know that FORD has done anything to solve the Trans problem, only time will tell. ;)

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 IIRC, this is Gen 3 of this Ford Hybrid platform which has, how many years of beta testing in Europe already? IIRC, Eurpoe Ford has been building these since 2003? So, their production #s should; be around 100-150K a year average, over the last 12 years.  

 

 

 

Did you disclose to the Ford Dealer that you were running a large grill cover when they replaced your transmission? Which Ford Dealer did you go to?

 

 

Isn't it possible that in running grill covers to increase temperatures in the engine bay compartment, you had actually cooked the transmission fluids, before you starting taking temps?

 

In that you have not checked the ATF level, the Dealer may not have put in the proper amount when they did the swap, being a possibility as well?

 

I find it weird that you'll fab and glue L-Channel to the bottom of your tranny, but you say checking the fluid level is too difficult?   

[ptjones]

 It does look like people who do a  lot of FWY driving are having the bulk of the problems, maybe all.

 

I like the idea of using synthetic AFT, it couldn't hurt.  I don't know that FORD has done anything to solve the Trans problem, only time will tell. ;)

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 IIRC, this is Gen 3 of this Ford Hybrid platform which has, how many years of beta testing in Europe already? IIRC, Eurpoe Ford has been building these since 2003? So, their production #s should; be around 100-150K a year average, over the last 12 years.  

 

 

 

Did you disclose to the Ford Dealer that you were running a large grill cover when they replaced your transmission? Which Ford Dealer did you go to?

 

 

Isn't it possible that in running grill covers to increase temperatures in the engine bay compartment, you had actually cooked the transmission fluids, before you starting taking temps?

 

In that you have not checked the ATF level, the Dealer may not have put in the proper amount when they did the swap, being a possibility as well?

 

I find it weird that you'll fab and glue L-Channel to the bottom of your tranny, but you say checking the fluid level is too difficult?   

All your questions are answered in this long thread. Surprising as it might seem the Trans runs cooler with covers on.  BTW FORD has never made a CMAX Hybrid in Europe.  :)

 

Paul

[cheezy]

All your questions are answered in this long thread. Surprising as it might seem the Trans runs cooler with covers on.  BTW FORD has never made a CMAX Hybrid in Europe.  :)

 

Paul

 

  Yes, it is very surprising that restricting air-cooling somehow makes something cooler.  

 

Why then would you want to install electric fans down there, as you have discussed, if restricting air flow is lowering the temps.?

 

I did not see answers to these questions in the thread, except that you do mention changing the ATF fluid is too difficult for you. 

 

Very interesting indeed.

[Zathrus]

Well...I knew it was only a matter of time before I would need to use the "ignore" feature to block a specific member's posts as outlined in following forum help page...(and no, I'm not referring to you Paul):

 

  http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/index.php?app=core&module=help&do=01&HID=2&hl=ignore

[cheezy]

Well...I knew it was only a matter of time before I would need to use the "ignore" feature to block a specific member's posts as outlined in following forum help page...(and no, I'm not referring to you Paul):

 

  http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/index.php?app=core&module=help&do=01&HID=2&hl=ignore

 

 

 Hey, you know, guy doesn't want to answer VERY basic ?s about a serious issue for a car company, and he contradicts himself about cooling/air flow/installing cooling fans in the engine compartment.

 

  Here's a BASIC idea from my many years of road-racing and building motorcycles, building cars in a Big 3 factory, and just plain wrenching on my own stuff for over 30 years now; Occam's Razor.  

 

 

 

IF a system is running HOT, you first CHECK/CHANGE the fluids which lubricate/cool that system. This aint rocket surgery necessitating the lactation of every ounce of teen angst, against the oval. 

 

So Paul, just curious, I read through your thread here and it doesn't say whether you disclosed to the NM dealer/Ford about running the grill blocks. Did you remove them before taking it in, and not disclose running the block off pieces of plastic?   

[ptjones]

  Yes, it is very surprising that restricting air-cooling somehow makes something cooler.  

 

Why then would you want to install electric fans down there, as you have discussed, if restricting air flow is lowering the temps.?

 

I did not see answers to these questions in the thread, except that you do mention changing the ATF fluid is too difficult for you. 

 

Very interesting indeed.

Try reading these Post# 24,25,76,96,110, 113, 116, 119, 121, 128, 129, 130 and 131. That should cover the important questions. :)

 

Paul

[hybridbear]

Okay, well since the ATF is too hard for you to change, just replace the tranny every 50k instead then (roll eyes). The best solution is replacing the ATF often. That is the only way to guarantee the tranny will get the lubrication it needs.

 

As far as trannys failing in 30k, only one did... out of a million. I wouldn't call that a problem.

New fluid won't provide better lubrication if the issue is a bad transmission design. New fluid would only help if the issue is that the fluid is wearing out & not providing adequate protection.