Emission Recall 15E03

[Bill-N]

This today from OASIS:

 

Jun 12 2015 6604-Announcing Emission Recall 15E03

Emission Recall 15E03: Certain 2013 Model Year C-Max Hybrid and Energi, Fusion Hybrid and Energi, and MKZ Hybrid Vehicles - Powertrain Control Module Reprogramming. Please see FMCDealer.com for more details.

 

 

Etis shows this recall for my C-Max.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Bill-N

[DaveofDurham]

Interesting, we just had PCM reprogram 14E02 done - wonder what else this one is going to do?

 

Bill N - Thank you for being our early warning system for the latest service bulletins, recalls, etc.

Edited June 12, 2015 by DaveofDurham

[Zathrus]

Here's copy of Recall:

 

 

R15E03.PDF

[Bill-N]

Here's copy of Recall:

 

Thank you.

[bemyax]

Had 15E03 done at the 30,000 service. The technician said it's a "rollup" reprogramming and updates all modules to be current.

[ptjones]

Interesting that I just got this recall in the mail.  I was wondering if you would get a code if this happened? It sounds like you don't need to do this unless you have a problem. :)

Paul

[FordService]

Interesting that I just got this recall in the mail.  I was wondering if you would get a code if this happened? It sounds like you don't need to do this unless you have a problem. :)

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

If you decide to head in to have this taken care of, I can look into some options from my end. Just keep me in the loop. :)

 

Meagan

[ptjones]

Hi Paul,

 

If you decide to head in to have this taken care of, I can look into some options from my end. Just keep me in the loop. :)

 

Meagan

Thanks, Meagan.  My first smog check comes up in March 2016. In Georgia in the Atlanta area they wait 3 years on new cars to do smog checks. :)

 

Paul

[FordService]

Thanks, Meagan.  My first smog check comes up in March 2016. In Georgia in the Atlanta area they wait 3 years on new cars to do smog checks. :)

 

Paul

 

Thanks for the heads up!

 

Meagan

[Bill-N]

Announced 11/12/15 on OASIS:

 

Emission Recall 15E03 – Supplement #1: Certain 2013 Model Year C-Max Hybrid and Energi, Fusion Hybrid and Energi, and MKZ Hybrid Vehicles - Powertrain Control Module Reprogramming. Please see FMCDealer.com for more details.

 

Sorry, but that's all they say.

[ptjones]

I just got a reminder notice, but I'm afraid that it might affect my FE. What to do? :future:  :headscratch:  :shrug: I'm getting very good FE! :yahoo:   I wonder if my ECM is going to have to learn to be smart again? :shift:  ;)

 

Paul

[fbov]

Well, here's my data. Comparing the last 15 points before the service, with the first 15 after (all I have logged as yet). It's confounded by fuel; I went back to 87E10 when the update was done, so you have to estimate the fuel effect and subtract it. The temps also rose after the update, so there's a temperature correction as well.

 

Before 15E03, on 91E0

52.24 MPG at 48.1F

 

After 15E03, on 87E10

50.00 MPG at 53.9F

 

Corrections: applied to Before data

Temperature: 0.2MPG/degree means we add 1.16 MPG to Before

Fuel: +4MPG observed at 87E10 to 91E0 switch, but at +20F ambient, a 4MPG effect.

Assuming equal fractional effect due to fuel (percentage change, not absolute change) let's subtract 10% of the improvement

... subtract 3.6 from Before.

 

Before is now 49.8MPG, After 50MPG. I'd estimate the standard deviation of my data at 2.5MPG, so it's both statistically insignificant, as well as practically insignificant.

 

Get the update.

Frank

Edited December 11, 2015 by fbov

[revanoff2]

I just got the reminder too. Guess I'll haul it in there and have them do it. Maybe it'll fix the poor mpg I'm getting... even with the coach saying I'm terrific and using P&G driving in town.

[fbov]

Interesting, we just had PCM reprogram 14E02 done ...

I'd forgotten about this one until my wife came across the service receipt.

 

We've had PCM reprogram recalls each year...

- 13B07 was the big one that gave us EV above 63 MPH.

- 14E02 changed some of the warm-up routines, allowing EV sooner? All I noticed.

- 15E03 is still a mystery...

 

Given this is Ford's first dedicated hybrid, you think they're using us as guinea pigs? Let's see if we get a "16E04" next year!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[raadsel]

I'd forgotten about this one until my wife came across the service receipt.

 

We've had PCM reprogram recalls each year...

- 13B07 was the big one that gave us EV above 63 MPH.

- 14E02 changed some of the warm-up routines, allowing EV sooner? All I noticed.

- 15E03 is still a mystery...

 

Given this is Ford's first dedicated hybrid, you think they're using us as guinea pigs? Let's see if we get a "16E04" next year!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

 

It may be Ford's first "dedicated hybrid" but it is worth noting it is using the same powertrain as the Ford Fusion Hybrid. It also isn't Ford's first hybrid powertrain; it is the same basic technology Ford used on their previous hybrids, and even roughly the same as Toyota uses (Ford and Toyota use the same basic hybrid technology, cross licensing each others patents) in their hybrids, including the Prius.

 

If anything, it has more to do that modern hybrid powertrains are in their teens, being in production less than two decades. By contrast, the ICE has 150 years of development.

[ptjones]

Well I got updated today so we will see if I notice any difference in MPG's. I did fill up prior to having oil changed and as usual they killed my FE. Something to work on. ;)

 

Paul 

[fbov]

It may be Ford's first "dedicated hybrid" but it is worth noting it is using the same powertrain as the Ford Fusion Hybrid. It also isn't Ford's first hybrid powertrain; it is the same basic technology Ford used on their previous hybrids, and even roughly the same as Toyota uses (Ford and Toyota use the same basic hybrid technology, cross licensing each others patents) in their hybrids, including the Prius....

Agreed, there's a lot in common with prior hybrids, but there are a number of firsts. It's a first-gen Li-ion powertrain, industry wide. That's big, as no one has real-world data on Li-ion performance. The Key Life Test is just an accelerated life test, not actual life. 

 

It's a new power train, so we're seeing unexpected failures, like the tranny pump in early taxi fleets, and the several tranny replacements reported to date. My car is 100% EV when it's first started; even though the ICE is running. EV uses a different torque path through the tranny, perhaps bypassing the problem part(s) until they're properly lubed/warmed/ready, whatever the issue might be. Then there's 14B07; Porter's in the right date range, but no letter yet.

 

Then there's the market. It's Ford's first-gen dedicated hybrid and first with a plug-in option. That the drivetrain is available as a choice in other models just broadens the test population, allowing comparisons between the "Prius buyer" they targeted and their established drivetrain-option hybrid buyer. They made some guesses, like the 63 MPH EV limit, that didn't work out, and a whole lot of stupid mistakes affecting perceptions more than performance.

 

When looking at advanced technology, there will always be old tech around it. It can be hard to tell which is which. Ford did not license the power split system, and neither did Toyota. TRW patented it in 1972 as I recall, so the patents ran out in 1990. GM patented the neodymium magnet in 1982, so it's patents ran out in 2000. The unique new technology is in the control systems and power converters, as that's where "getting it all to play nice" has great benefit.

 

We don't get to see Ford policy and strategy plans, but it appears they want to be second in line, not the leader in the field, but rather a profitable competitor. If history holds, it bodes well for Ford.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[raadsel]

Agreed, there's a lot in common with prior hybrids, but there are a number of firsts. It's a first-gen Li-ion powertrain, industry wide. That's big, as no one has real-world data on Li-ion performance. The Key Life Test is just an accelerated life test, not actual life. 

 

It's a new power train, so we're seeing unexpected failures, like the tranny pump in early taxi fleets, and the several tranny replacements reported to date. My car is 100% EV when it's first started; even though the ICE is running. EV uses a different torque path through the tranny, perhaps bypassing the problem part(s) until they're properly lubed/warmed/ready, whatever the issue might be. Then there's 14B07; Porter's in the right date range, but no letter yet.

 

Then there's the market. It's Ford's first-gen dedicated hybrid and first with a plug-in option. That the drivetrain is available as a choice in other models just broadens the test population, allowing comparisons between the "Prius buyer" they targeted and their established drivetrain-option hybrid buyer. They made some guesses, like the 63 MPH EV limit, that didn't work out, and a whole lot of stupid mistakes affecting perceptions more than performance.

 

When looking at advanced technology, there will always be old tech around it. It can be hard to tell which is which. Ford did not license the power split system, and neither did Toyota. TRW patented it in 1972 as I recall, so the patents ran out in 1990. GM patented the neodymium magnet in 1982, so it's patents ran out in 2000. The unique new technology is in the control systems and power converters, as that's where "getting it all to play nice" has great benefit.

 

We don't get to see Ford policy and strategy plans, but it appears they want to be second in line, not the leader in the field, but rather a profitable competitor. If history holds, it bodes well for Ford.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

 

I don't see the switch to the LiON battery a major change. Yes, there are questions about the longevity, though so far from what I've seen, the estimations are holding true. While we don't have solid data about how long (in terms of time) the batteries will last, the technology has been around long enough that we are seeing the mileage estimates come true. While many of these vehicles are not Fords (Hyundai started using LiON batteries in their 2011 Sonata Hybrid), the fact is that many fleet vehicles are seeing 300,000 miles out of their car's LiON batteries. It is also worth noting that Hyundai is offering a lifetime hybrid battery warranty on their new Sonata Hybrids (as I recall, they started in 2013), which I think reflects Hyundai's comfort that the batteries were holding up to what their initial testing showed. Beyond the longevity, it makes little difference to the Hybrid system, other than how the system uses the power from the battery and how it charges it.

 

I was tempted to mention TRW pioneering the Hybrid technology Ford and Toyota are using, though decided it wasn't worth mentioning. The fact is, both Ford and Toyota, with the "control systems and power converters," made the TRW system workable and owns enough patents that other manufacturers (such as Honda, VW, and Hyundai) have created their own hybrid systems.

 

The fact is that the C-Max and Fusion both use Ford's third generation of hybrid systems. Yes, they are continually trying to improve things, such as using an electric motor with more power that can operate the car at higher speeds. Granted, at least part of this was driven by the creation of the Energi line, having a plug-in vehicle necessitated the ability for the car to operate at high speeds under battery power. But the fact remains, these changes were evolutionary in nature, built upon the first two generations of hybrid vehicles Ford produced; they were not revolutionary changes.

 

Last, while the C-Max is Ford's first "dedicated" hybrid, the fact remains that even it wasn't much of a change. It is not a "dedicated" hybrid vehicle to Ford, since the same car is produced with both gasoline and diesel variants in Europe -- in fact this current generation of C-Max was a traditional car first before becoming a hybrid, this current body style was introduced in 2010 in Europe. There are signs in our cars that show it is not a true dedicated hybrid, such as the raised load floor in the cargo area. As such, there really isn't nearly as much difference between the Fusion and the C-Max, in terms of the C-Max being a dedicated hybrid, as you are trying to claim.

[C-MaxSea]

If anything, it has more to do that modern hybrid powertrains are in their teens, being in production less than two decades. By contrast, the ICE has 150 years of development.

 

Bingo.  Very complex / sophisticated teenagers !

 

Very thankful here for the little bit of tweaking from the mother ship.

 

Nick

Edited December 16, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[ptjones]

After doing the 15E03 yesterday It doesn't appeared to affected my FE, I still see 50"s, 60's, and 70's MPG trips and average is going up. :yahoo:

 

Paul

[raadsel]

Bingo.  Very complex / sophisticated teenagers !

 

Very thankful here for the little bit of tweaking from the mother ship.

 

Nick

 

It seems like there are a few jokes in there, such as the hybrids having the sophistication/complexity that other teens aspire to.  ;)

[jestevens]

We had some of the original 2010 Fusion Hybrids, and the Escape Hybrid here at work, quite frankly I was not that impressed considering the hybrid versions didn't get that much more MPG and were significantly more expensive.

 

The C-MAX was the first hybrid that really seemed to use some of the cross-licensed Toyota tech, but Ford somehow managed to make the performance of the C-MAX much nicer (I test drove a Prius V and it was sooo sluggish).  The panoramic roof was a nice option that is hard to find on cars less than $30K..It was the first one that really seemed like a true hybrid to me - enough to make me want to buy one when the price dropped below $24K.

 

I had a Prius, and as far as I'm concerned the hatchback is still one of the best sedans out there, smooth, quiet, relatively powerful, no other 87 octane car can get 49-50MPG..

 

Using Li-on batteries was a risk Toyota didn't want to take because the NiMh batteries seemed safer, and more reliable - they did a lot of things like using AGM battery instead of liquid battery, to try to make things safer in a crash.  Even so in 15 years of Prius being on the road people are just now starting to trust the battery packs so maybe Toyota didn't want to take that risk without more testing. 

 

Li-on batteries can explode violently if not built and maintained properly (look at the knock offs in the news lately and the Dreamliner airplane)..  So yeah it's a risk, but using those packs Ford was able to equip a much bigger vehicle, provide better performance and use EV more aggressively than Toyota.  I guess that risk is part of buying the car.  At least they are covering some of the faults with recalls.  Even with all of the TSBs I still like my C-MAX, wish Ford would market them more aggressively but I am seeing more of them on the road now anyway.

[fbov]

I don't see the switch to the LiON battery a major change. ...

Then you're likely not an engineer.

[ptjones]

Then you're likely not an engineer.

There is a very noticeable difference driving between an FEH and CMAX from my experience. ICE Charging is a lot faster in in CMAX. :) 

 

Frank I PM ed you.

 

Paul 

[ptjones]

We had some of the original 2010 Fusion Hybrids, and the Escape Hybrid here at work, quite frankly I was not that impressed considering the hybrid versions didn't get that much more MPG and were significantly more expensive.

 

The C-MAX was the first hybrid that really seemed to use some of the cross-licensed Toyota tech, but Ford somehow managed to make the performance of the C-MAX much nicer (I test drove a Prius V and it was sooo sluggish).  The panoramic roof was a nice option that is hard to find on cars less than $30K..It was the first one that really seemed like a true hybrid to me - enough to make me want to buy one when the price dropped below $24K.

 

I had a Prius, and as far as I'm concerned the hatchback is still one of the best sedans out there, smooth, quiet, relatively powerful, no other 87 octane car can get 49-50MPG..

 

Using Li-on batteries was a risk Toyota didn't want to take because the NiMh batteries seemed safer, and more reliable - they did a lot of things like using AGM battery instead of liquid battery, to try to make things safer in a crash.  Even so in 15 years of Prius being on the road people are just now starting to trust the battery packs so maybe Toyota didn't want to take that risk without more testing. 

 

Li-on batteries can explode violently if not built and maintained properly (look at the knock offs in the news lately and the Dreamliner airplane)..  So yeah it's a risk, but using those packs Ford was able to equip a much bigger vehicle, provide better performance and use EV more aggressively than Toyota.  I guess that risk is part of buying the car.  At least they are covering some of the faults with recalls.  Even with all of the TSBs I still like my C-MAX, wish Ford would market them more aggressively but I am seeing more of them on the road now anyway.

I had both 2008 and 2010 FEH's and was getting low 40's City and 30-35 HWY which was way better than ICE Escape, It was all about how you drive them. :)

 

Paul