Transmission Leak

[SnowStorm]

A centrifugal clutch???

 

The Enterprise is going back together and service called to ask if I wanted them to replace the "centrifugal clutch" that is apparently part of the flywheel (not inside the transmission).  He said there wasn't any known problem with it - just that it is recommended to be replaced if the transmission is replaced.  Cost is an extra $150 - I said go ahead.  Now, I had no idea there was a centrifugal clutch in there or why.  The technician didn't seem to know either.  Can anyone tell us what it is and what it does for a living?  I always assumed the ICE crankshaft connected directly to the transmission input.  It can't be a conventional centrifugal clutch that only engages above a certain ICE RPM or how could the transmission start the ICE?  Maybe its the other way round so it engages when the transmission is above a certain RPM (and going in the right direction!).  Does anyone know or have any pictures?  Thanks.

 

EDIT:  I guess I found it as part # DG9Z-7550-A here and many other places  Would still appreciate any more info about it.

Edited April 8, 2019 by SnowStorm

[kyledamron1]

Ironically, Maxwell 2.0 (My 2017 Energi) I noticed a strange noise when you're using the regen braking. Didn't happen in my old one and thought it wasn't quite right. Checked DTCs and found a C42400. Wasn't sure what it meant and neither did dealers. Took it to the shop and they put it up on the lift to find a leak. 38,300. Going to be investigating further and I'll post an update when I learn more.

[plus 3 golfer]

The centrifugal clutch is just a damper between the engine and transmission that reduces vibration and harsh engagement with stiff springs when ICE starts.  Smart to replace.  https://parts.lakelandford.com/p/Ford__/CLUTCH-ASSEMBLY-Clutch-Friction-Disc-DISC-ASSEMBLY---CLUTCH/52358769/DG9Z7550A.html

 

Look at pic #3 in post 31. I believe that there is a disc / pressure plate inside such that if the torque difference between engine and transmission exceeds the spring forces holding plates in place, the plates will slip slightly until torque is equal thus reducing any vibration or harsh engagement.

 

Here's what Ford Mechanic says: "That is a called a damper, it is designed to slip briefly in the event there is a shock. It does not work like a normal manual transmission clutch which I assumed you were asking about.

 

The only time we see damper failure is when there is a leak from above causing slippage, this also results in the damper showing sever hot spots.

 

Is your engine flywheel mounted damper showing any fluid contamination or hot spots, if so then the damper can be your failure but not the cause if there are leaks."

Edited April 9, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[SnowStorm]

Where's Alice? I think we're in Wonderland - keeps getting curiouser and curiouser!  In taking out the old transmission they found some pieces of metal.  Now they have noticed a perfectly shaped hole (not on the new one!) that was worn through the wall of the transmission!  Looked like it was done by a gear.  No wonder it started leaking oil!  I guess it wasn't the seal!  They have the "clutch" but some more days are needed before its all back together.

 

Also: Sounds like new rear rotors are needed to pass inspection - use them or loose them!  Pads are "OK" but are normally changed too.

Edited April 10, 2019 by SnowStorm

[plus 3 golfer]

Sure sounds like the hole is related to the "thumping" TSB.  Damper housing develops hole from contact with transfer shaft.  Oil then leaks out of transmission into damper area and leaks past engine / damper housing mating surface.  Look at the parts list and breakdown of transmission for the transfer shaft / gears (which connects ring gear and motor to final drive ring gear) that I attached previously.

 

5. Remove damper housing and transfer shaft assembly. Refer to WSM Section, 307-01.

 

6. Inspect the damper housing for transfer shaft contact or wear. Is contact or wear present on damper housing or transfer shaft?

[SnowStorm]

Well, that could be it.  I would describe the sounds more like "whirring" or a "whine" or, perhaps, "rubbing", certainly not thumping or grinding.  There was a soft whine during regen, also during EV it might come and go as you increased and decreased torque, or a more constant sound that seemed to persist from EV through start of ICE.  Nothing noticeable at higher speeds and never very loud.

 

Now if I could just get Ford to pay for it!  I don't exactly understand the warranty verbiage at the end of the TSB.

Edited April 11, 2019 by SnowStorm

[jestevens]

I must be in the wrong business because if I was charging $1,000 to replace a transmission and everything was already torn down I might be tempted to just throw in the $125 clutch as a part of the repair.  I guess no one wants to work for free.

[stratosurfer]

All,

I am in a similar situation as SnowStorm except my 2013’s tranny is still quite functional. It has ‘stuttered’ at the same intersection where I make a turn right in the past couple of days... so not getting better.

I’m having a hard time finding a dealer to do the swap, my local dealer here in San Angelo said no, they would only do a new transmission, $7,000 trans and labor. I have a business in the Houston Galveston area where I work a week each month, and I found the dealer there will do a salvage trans swapout. My problem I sent them an ad on eBay for the trans I wanted to get, they searched out compatibility and it came back as being from a C-Max Plug in Hybrid and therefore not compatible. The service desk writer I’m dealing with happens to be an old acquaintance of my family, yet she made it clear she spent a lot of time on this and would source me a salvage tranny and mark it up (again) and then install it: so not helpful... Funny thing is on the trans on eBay I sent to the link to the auction, the vendor sent me a picture of the donor vehicle with VIN, the PICTURE is not a Plug In C-Max... I ran the VIN on the gov website and it was classified as a FHEV (Full Hybrid Electrical Vehicle). So all of that to say I am asking if anyone has any other source of matching transmissions of later model C-Max Hybrids to my 2013? I would like to have a good idea that the numbers will match on the next time I send one to the service writer at the dealer, to save from her telling me the only option is for them to source the tranny.

Any help appreciated. As an aside, I have found a number of transmission shops that will do the swap, yet I worry about their work on High Voltage systems.

Thanks

[SnowStorm]

Dealers sure do vary in attitude and accommodation - I'm lucky.  When I asked about sourcing my own transmission, I was was told immediately that I certainly could.  When I called with the donor VIN, the service tech went over to parts (while I waited on the phone!) and came back with the answer that the VINs of the donor car and my car both linked to the same Ford part number.  I don't know if there is a way to check compatibility outside of using a dealer but I hope there is.  My car is back together and ready to go but I won't be able to pick it up for some days yet.  I'm getting the old transmission back so when I do, I'll open it up, take some pictures and give a report in a couple of weeks.  When I pick it up, I'll try and ask some general questions about what all was involved in doing the swap.

[Bill-N]

Changing the transmission is a big deal as the entire engine-transmission combo has to be removed from underneath the car.  No more using a come-along attached to a tree limb (sigh).

[SnowStorm]

The Enterprise is home and runs beautifully again!  Absolutely silky quiet during EV, torque applied or not, and during regen.  The old one has a "beautiful" 2 inch round hole facing the ICE where a shaft (transfer?) wore all the way through.  Inside, there is a gear on the same shaft that wore a channel about 0.1 inch deep in the internal housing.  Pictures are on the way.  (Boy, is that thing heavy!)

[SnowStorm]

Here are photos from my old transmission.

 

Side that faces ICE.  That 2" hole with the various seals next to it isn't supposed to be there!  It leaks oil rather badly!

 

Close up of hole - no idea where the seals came from.

 

Wear channels on inside.

 

End of shaft that made the hole.  The bearing didn't seem to seat properly on its race.  It seems like the gear is too far to the left or the race has moved to the right.

 

Here's the complete shaft - except you can't see the bearing that is in previous photo.  Note how teeth corners are gone from right side of left gear.

 

Another shot of damaged gear.  A number of the corners were scattered around inside the transmission!

 

Its a bit scary to think I was driving around with all that carnage in there.

 

Costs:

Used transmission $1200 + $150 shipping + $200 for 1 year parts/labor warranty

Installation labor $1400

Vibration damper "clutch" $142.55

Fluid $79.80

Anti-Freeze (I asked for a change in the ICE) $39.96

Various other parts $174.93

Engine oil (???) $14.75

Total parts $451.99

Shop supplies $30 (included brake job)

Tax $25.55

Total for new transmission $3457.54

So, less than half that of new Ford transmission.  Hope it lasts.

Edited May 2, 2019 by SnowStorm

[Bill-N]

Many thanks for the great pictures.

[Marc Smith]

I understand that nothing last forever, but given the pretty damning evidence.  Transmissino shafts aren't supposed to cut holes in the case, even at 140K miles

 

are you going to ford to ask for some help. 

 

I'm surprised that they dealer wouldn't send it up the food chain to the designers and engineers.  "hey look whats going on"

[joshg678]

Thank you for the photos, love seeing these.

I'm sure Ford knows whats going on, thats why they redesigned it.

 

SnowStorm, was this the original tranny or was it replaced?

[SnowStorm]

Its the original - went 176k miles.  But it was making noise since maybe 120k, maybe even before 100k but I never noticed.  The noise was never very loud - you could easily ignore it.  I've had tires make more noise.  I only knew it was leaking fluid when I changed ICE oil and found that belly pan saturated.

[plus 3 golfer]

Its the original - went 176k miles.  But it was making noise since maybe 120k, maybe even before 100k but I never noticed.  The noise was never very loud - you could easily ignore it.  I've had tires make more noise.  I only knew it was leaking fluid when I changed ICE oil and found that belly pan saturated.

Maybe you mentioned before but what did the noise sound like? Did it change when in ICE or EV only mode? Speed? Coasting? Regen braking? Or was it virtually the same since the problem is with the transfer shaft / gear assembly which spins when ever the car is moving.

 

I wonder if torque applied from ring gear, traction motor or wheels makes a difference and perhaps driving style affects issue. For example, in high speed driving, ICE supplies virtually all the torque and in moderate speeds and use hypermiling techniques, there would be more cycling between ICE / EV modes. Although we don’t have a lot of data, it seems failures occurred over a wide range of mileage.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[SnowStorm]

See description in post #56 above.  At the end, it was most noticeable during EV around 30-40 mph with forward torque.  Let off the accelerator and noise would go away.  It was also there during regen.  It wasn't loud - perhaps no more than normal tire noise at that speed.  When ICE would start it was usually hard to tell if it went away - I think it at least dropped in intensity.  There was an earlier time when I thought it didn't vary much with torque - I kept listening for that effect hoping it was just a CV joint.

 

After rereading 14B07 it sounds like that is definitely my problem.  I have wear patterns just like you see here in figure 3.  The maddening thing is, I had Ford check my VIN when 14B07 was active and was told my car wasn't affected.  Now it has failed with those exact results (only worse!).

 

My view is that these transmissions were defective (design, manufacture, or both) and there is no need to blame driving style.

[joshg678]

My view is that these transmissions were defective (design, manufacture, or both) and there is no need to blame driving style.

Agreed.

I just hope they truly have it fixed (at least for my 2016)

[plus 3 golfer]

I believe it is a defective design.  Manufacturing issues should have long been corrected prior to 2017 when Ford issued TSB 17-0039.  TSB 17-0039  includes cars built on or before 8/15/2015.  This includes some MY 2016 vehicles. CSP 14B07 covered failures through 5/31/2016 regardless of mileage.  

 

Problem is Ford has to make the call and is choosing not to cover past warranty period. Shame on Ford for not covering the "clear defect" regardless of mileage with additional CSPs for 7 years of ownership.  I believe MY 2013s have yet to reach 7 years of ownership.

[SnowStorm]

Agreed.

I just hope they truly have it fixed (at least for my 2016)

So do I!  My donor car was a 2016.

I just called Ford and, not surprisingly, was told that there was no program that would pay for the repair - but keep my receipts in case they initiated one in the future!

[SnowStorm]

I believe it is a defective design.  Manufacturing issues should have long been corrected prior to 2017 when Ford issued TSB 17-0039.  TSB 17-0039  includes cars built on or before 8/15/2015.  This includes some MY 2016 vehicles. CSP 14B07 covered failures through 5/31/2016 regardless of mileage.  

 

Problem is Ford has to make the call and is choosing not to cover past warranty period. Shame on Ford for not covering the "clear defect" regardless of mileage with additional CSPs for 7 years of ownership.  I believe MY 2013s have yet to reach 7 years of ownership.

Its interesting how Figure 1 in TSB 17-0039 shows the shaft protruding a bit past the ring.  On my transmission the ring is out way past the end of the shaft.  Looks like the assembly may have used an interference fit that didn't hold.

Edited May 3, 2019 by SnowStorm

[plus 3 golfer]

I think the key to all of this is to monitor ones transmission for noise and "catch" the issue before it becomes catastrophic and requires transmission replacement.  If caught soon enough, the repairs will likely be around $2500 as Ford sells a transfer shaft / gear assembly kit.  MSRP of kit is around $740 with Ford dealers selling it for around $500+.

 

Today, I very carefully listened for any noise from my 110 k mile tranny (especially in EV) and heard nothing.  If these transmission begin to fail in droves, a preemptive approach may be a good choice for $2500.  The question is at what mileage should this be done.  I wonder if a scope could be inserted (perhaps through the fill port) to look at the transfer assembly.

 

Let's hope Ford does the right thing and issues another CSP to extend coverage a couple more years and reimburses those that have paid for the repair. 

[SnowStorm]

Along with noise, one could periodically check the color of the fluid.  If it still looks like new (clear with reddish tint) then there probably hasn't been much or any wear.  When I changed my fluid at 154k miles it was rather black - lots of aluminum in it I guess.  Since I had noise for, I think, at least 20-30k miles before the oil change, you should probably check every 5k miles.  I can't find it now but I thought stratosurfer said his fluid looked OK.

 

I don't think I would opt for a repair job.  You might save $500+ on parts but there will be a lot more labor.  Also, what do you do if you open it up and find wear and damage?  You'll have to get a replacement anyway.  In the TSB procedure the transmission was only repaired if there was no wear.  It seems less risky to go with a low mileage transmission that doesn't have to be torn apart and reassembled - probably by someone whole never did it before.  For sure, I wouldn't start down the repair route if my fluid wasn't clean.

[stratosurfer]

SnowStorm, thanks for this awesome detailing of your journey. You will greatly help the rest of us looking at saving our C-Max’s. I just found a compatible transmission with 12K miles out of a 2016 Fusion Hybrid that my dealer confirms is a match, the donor was rear ended and frankly barely totaled, so tranny should be OK. $1,600 shipped. I found a transmission shop that will R&R for $1,000, I’m bringing in all the fluids. I guess I will have to pick up that clutch. I’m thinking I will install Amsoil Signature LTV which is their premium synthetic compatible with Mercon LV. I’m certain I have your exact problem, but I’m only at 124,000 miles. This car is worth spending 3K to keep on the road. BTW, that hole in the case is truly unbelieveable. I’m curious if anyone has a pic of what Ford did to fix that problem?

Edited May 9, 2019 by stratosurfer