Rotors and Pads crap at 24K

[reedmother]

My guy at the garage could not believe the state of my brakes.  The front is metal on metal.  It's a 2013 with 24K on it.  Need new rotors and pads all around.  This car is starting to get on my nerves.  The clock can't keep time, it has more recalls than ever, it stranded me twice.  I wonder what is next.....

[obob]

That might be worth a second opinion or at least look at them yourself.  I have not read on this forum about anyone replacing the front brakes.  Most of the braking is done in the regeneration of the battery charge.

 

What is your lifetime brake score which is displayed after turning the key off ?  The score is the percent of braking taken care of by regeneration.

 

Here is a thread about the rear brakes but one conclusion is beware of being told you need brakes on a C-Max because they hardly wear.

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/5405-how-long-did-your-rear-brake-rotors-last/

 

If I just had them done, I would ask for the old parts to verify that they were needed.

 

And someone that really brakes hard all the time could wear them out quickly, but that would have to be pretty extreme.

Edited October 15, 2015 by obob

[Adrian_L]

Almost identical thread about three weeks ago that obob refers to. 

 

I'd go to Ford for a second opinion and/or maybe a warranty claim.

[fbov]

Given it's front brakes, and you live in Vermont, it could be traction control.

 

TC will apply brakes to stop wheel spin. If you're a lead-foot, you could be using the engine to burn up the brakes. Or it could be from driving up snowy hills... any time you're accustomed to using wheel spin, is a time the C-Max could be braking to stop it. I'm at 40K and the brakes look very good.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[wab]

A friend has to replace pads/rotors on his wife's car (even on a hybrid a few yrs ago)  every year, never more than 12K miles.

She parks in a multistory parking garage plus she's a left foot braker.

[FordService]

My guy at the garage could not believe the state of my brakes.  The front is metal on metal.  It's a 2013 with 24K on it.  Need new rotors and pads all around.  This car is starting to get on my nerves.  The clock can't keep time, it has more recalls than ever, it stranded me twice.  I wonder what is next.....

Did you work with your local Ford Dealer, or an independent mechanic, reedmother?

 

Meagan

[cmax-nynj]

Did you buy your car used?  Maybe the car 240K on it with the odometer rolled back to 24K.  I suspect this is the case.

Edited October 16, 2015 by cmax-nynj

[Adrian_L]

Did you buy your car used?  Maybe the car 240K on it with the odometer rolled back to 24K.  I suspect this is the case.

 

I think the OP would appreciate thoughtful responses based on the evidence at hand, rather than wild and improbable speculations.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Adrian_L

[cmax-nynj]

Odometer rollback exists and my post was first trying to find out if the car was bought new or not.  In case the car was bought used, then the rotor/pad wears are suspiciously high for only 24K of use.   Investigations should follow about the previous owner and seller.  If the car were bought new then the above speculation can be ignored and focus on the mechanical aspect of the problem.  How is this response wild and unthoughtful?  

[Adrian_L]

First of all, you don't know that the car was purchased used.  The original post does not state this.

 

Second, you "suspect" the vehicle has done 240 thousand miles in two years.  That's 333 miles a day.  A day!--------highly improbable.  I drive 25 miles a day in the city and that takes me an hour.  Even if you drove 5 1/2  hours a day at 60 mph with no stops, you wouldn't cover 333 miles.

 

Third---it would be pretty obvious to the buyer of a car with 24,000 miles if the car has REALLY done 240,000 miles, don't you think?  Unless the buyer was a complete moron.  A car with 24k on the clock would, more or less, feel like a new car.  A car with 240,000 k would be pretty tatty, as we say in the UK.

[cmax-nynj]

You didn't have to take '240K' literally and seriously.  The question is whether the mileage was rolled back in case the car was bought used.  Only the Topic starter can let us know and no one was asking this question.

[stevedebi]

The idea of the odometer is interesting in newer cars. It is not a mechanical system, how could it be "rolled back"?

 

Having said that, my 2002 civic had to get a new instrument cluster, and it turns out that when we swapped if for a used one, it had 40K less miles on it on the odo than the original - and it cannot be changed. But that is not rolling back, that is a complete replacement.  Makes me wonder if that would be true of the C-Max as well.

[hybridbear]

The idea of the odometer is interesting in newer cars. It is not a mechanical system, how could it be "rolled back"?

 

Having said that, my 2002 civic had to get a new instrument cluster, and it turns out that when we swapped if for a used one, it had 40K less miles on it on the odo than the original - and it cannot be changed. But that is not rolling back, that is a complete replacement.  Makes me wonder if that would be true of the C-Max as well.

My parents had a similar experience with a 2000 Chrysler 300M. It also needed a complete cluster replacement which caused the odometer to be changed. In their case, the odometer was increased. They got a piece of paper from the mechanic showing what the odometer was before & after. They kept the car until they bought the C-Max Energi. At that point it was very old & wasn't worth very much so the odometer discrepancy didn't matter much in the car's value.

 

I'm also very curious as to how an odometer would be rolled back on a new car like the C-Max.

[wab]

The idea of the odometer is interesting in newer cars. It is not a mechanical system, how could it be "rolled back"?

 

Having said that, my 2002 civic had to get a new instrument cluster, and it turns out that when we swapped if for a used one, it had 40K less miles on it on the odo than the original - and it cannot be changed. But that is not rolling back, that is a complete replacement.  Makes me wonder if that would be true of the C-Max as well.

 

 

My parents had a similar experience with a 2000 Chrysler 300M. It also needed a complete cluster replacement which caused the odometer to be changed. In their case, the odometer was increased. They got a piece of paper from the mechanic showing what the odometer was before & after. They kept the car until they bought the C-Max Energi. At that point it was very old & wasn't worth very much so the odometer discrepancy didn't matter much in the car's value.

 

I'm also very curious as to how an odometer would be rolled back on a new car like the C-Max.

 

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408,000 hits on Google for "odometer rollback"

https://www.google.com/search?as_q=&as_epq=odometer+rollback&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=

 

$69.00 buys the tool.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11MtfMqg4ko ​

 

[cmax-nynj]

There are shady mechanics who charge a fee to roll back digital odometer.  It's a Federal crime but they can care less.

[Adrian_L]

You know what?  If you're buying a car with 24,000 miles on the clock and (assuming you don't know a rotor from a drum) you don't have the car checked out by a mechanic, you deserve to be swindled.

 

I find all of this largely meaningless---for every member on the forum who has had, say,  a dead 12v battery you might as well suggest that the battery was swapped by the previous owner and is actually 10 years old!  Of course it "might" happen, but members are looking for educated and reasonable suggestions to help them. 

[reedmother]

HI guys - I neglected to check back in. Yes, I bought the car new, so we can forget all about rolling the odometer back.  Also, I did have 2 opinions about the brakes. First the dealer told me and they were going to do the work, but the warranty was up, so I took it to my cheaper, reliable guy in town.    He was dumbfounded by the state of the brakes. He did some more checking to see if some warranty somewhere would cover at least part of it, but no luck.  It's a mystery to me.  I'm not a big braker.  We live in a town in Vermont that has one stop light - and that's 8 miles from my home.....

[stevedebi]

HI guys - I neglected to check back in. Yes, I bought the car new, so we can forget all about rolling the odometer back.  Also, I did have 2 opinions about the brakes. First the dealer told me and they were going to do the work, but the warranty was up, so I took it to my cheaper, reliable guy in town.    He was dumbfounded by the state of the brakes. He did some more checking to see if some warranty somewhere would cover at least part of it, but no luck.  It's a mystery to me.  I'm not a big braker.  We live in a town in Vermont that has one stop light - and that's 8 miles from my home.....

Keep a close eye on the brakes. From my experience with Ford hybrids (I had an Escape Hybrid), the brakes last a lot longer than ICE cars. It is probable that some malfunction is causing the wear. I had my FEH for 80K with no brakes, and I'm at 21.5 on my C-Max Energi with no problems.

[Louder North]

Reedmother - does your car stay in the driveway a lot? I ask because our previous car (a Subaru Outback) was used primarily on weekends and the brakes had be to replaced every 2-3 years.  My mechanic said it as my fault I didn't drive my car enough and the rotors rusted from not being used.   :sad:

[ptjones]

At 122k miles my brakes look great! :)

 

Paul

[homestead]

At 122k miles my brakes look great! :)

 

Paul

 

Yeah, with your lifetime brake score they should look great!

I wonder what the scores are for those have worn out brakes.

[ptjones]

That is a good question. Unfortunately that only works for 2013 CMAXs

 

Paul

[SnowStorm]

I'm curious about the lifetime brake score.  Does it average in ALL braking - even when you don't come to a stop and get a score displayed?  Also I expect you can brake hard (friction brakes) down to, say, 10 mph then let off for a second and brake gently to a stop and still get a 100% score.  Maybe the "lifetime" score isn't what we think it is. ;)

[ptjones]

I'm curious about the lifetime brake score.  Does it average in ALL braking - even when you don't come to a stop and get a score displayed?  Also I expect you can brake hard (friction brakes) down to, say, 10 mph then let off for a second and brake gently to a stop and still get a 100% score.  Maybe the "lifetime" score isn't what we think it is. ;)

I'm pretty sure you are going to get a terrible brake score if you use friction brakes, I know I have. OUCH! I think it only counts complete stops. I'm not sure if friction braking takes over when you start charging HVB faster than it can charge.

 

Paul

[hybridbear]

From the Workshop Manual:

Brake Modes
Because much of the brake torque required to stop the vehicle can be achieved through regenerative braking, it is not always necessary for the conventional friction brakes to be applied. The brake pedal uses a pedal feel simulator that acts against a curved bracket to give the driver a simulated pedal resistance as the brake pedal is applied. The ABS module uses the driver input on the brake pedal, wheel speed sensor input and the lateral deceleration messages from the RCM to determine the amount of deceleration the driver is requesting and which brake mode is necessary.

Regenerative Braking Mode
The ABS module determines the amount of braking torque necessary and sends that info to the PCM along with the current threshold for ABS intervention. The PCM determines how much braking torque the electric motor can provide based on High Voltage Traction Battery (HVTB) state-of-charge and sends this information back to the ABS module. At the same time, the electric motor is switched to a generator which supplies the determined amount of braking torque. Based on the amount of braking torque the PCM can deliver, the ABS module determines whether it is necessary to apply the friction brakes or if the brake torque from the electric motor is sufficient to safely stop the vehicle.

Friction Braking Mode
Under some circumstances, the brake torque generated by the electric motor is insufficient to bring the vehicle to a safe, controlled stop and requires the assistance of the conventional friction brakes. Additionally, the state-of-charge in the High Voltage Traction Battery (HVTB) may not allow for regenerative braking to take place or the vehicle may be experiencing an ABS , stability control event.

In these instances, the ABS module activates a mechanical relay which supplies power to a solid state relay that activates a vacuum pump. At the same time, the ABS module sends a PWM voltage to a solenoid mounted on the brake booster. The solenoid allows vacuum from the vacuum pump to enter the brake booster which moves the booster push rod and applies the conventional brakes.

During certain braking events, the friction brakes can be applied directly by the driver. The brake booster push rod is equipped with an adjustable stop, once the brake pedal travels far enough to engage the stop, the brake booster push rod is forced into the master cylinder and the conventional friction brakes are applied.

Supplemental Braking Assist
In addition to preventing wheel lock up during braking events, the ABS module also provides supplemental hydraulic brake assist through the use of the hydraulic pump motor and the HCU . The ABS module continually monitors the vacuum in the brake booster through the use of a vacuum sensor. When the vacuum sensor indicates vacuum is below a predetermined level during a braking event or if the driver attempts to stop the vehicle with a low vacuum condition in the brake booster, the ABS module activates the hydraulic pump motor in the HCU to assist with vehicle braking.

Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD)
On initial application of the brake pedal, full pressure is applied to the rear brakes. The ABS module then uses wheel speed sensor inputs to evaluate rear wheel slip. Once the rear wheel slip exceeds a predetermined threshold, the ABS module commands the HCU to close the appropriate isolation valves to hold the rear brake pressure constant while allowing the front brake pressure to build. This creates a balanced braking condition between the front and rear wheels. If the rear wheel slip continues and exceeds a second predetermined threshold, the ABS module commands the HCU to open the dump valves to decrease the rear brake pressure and allow the rear wheels to recover. A slight bump sensation may be felt in the brake pedal when EBD is active.

If the ABS is disabled due to a DTC being present in the ABS module, EBD continues to function unless the DTC is for wheel speed sensors or the HCU . When EBD is disabled, the ABS warning indicator, the red brake warning indicator and sliding car icon illuminate.

 

From another section about the IPC:

Brake Coach Gauge

The brake coach gauge is a virtual gauge that appears after the vehicle has come to a complete stop. It coaches the driver to brake in a manner which maximizes the amount of energy returned through the regenerative braking system. The percent displayed is an indication of the regenerative braking efficiency with 100% representing the maximum amount of energy recovery. The brake coach gauge can be enabled or disabled through the message center settings.

The IPC uses 3 messaged inputs to display the brake coach gauge. The first is the regenerative braking status, the second is the request to display the braking event feedback and the third is the amount of energy recaptured. The IPC receives the regenerative braking active and brake event data messages from the GWM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 3 (HS3-CAN). The GWM receives the regenerative braking active and brake event data messages from the PCM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 1 (HS1-CAN).

 

Energy Coach Message Center Display

The IPC provides a message center display to provide energy coaching information to the driver related to the specific driving performance of vehicle acceleration, braking, and vehicle cruising speed. The display uses 2 unique color appearances to indicate good performance or of improvement potential. Blue indicates good and orange indicates areas for improvement.

The IPC receives the energy coaching data from the GWM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 3 (HS3-CAN). The GWM receives the energy coaching data from the SOBDMC over the High Speed Controller Area Network 1 (HS1-CAN).

I'm curious about the lifetime brake score.  Does it average in ALL braking - even when you don't come to a stop and get a score displayed?  Also I expect you can brake hard (friction brakes) down to, say, 10 mph then let off for a second and brake gently to a stop and still get a 100% score.  Maybe the "lifetime" score isn't what we think it is. ;)

I'm pretty sure you are going to get a terrible brake score if you use friction brakes, I know I have. OUCH! I think it only counts complete stops. I'm not sure if friction braking takes over when you start charging HVB faster than it can charge.

Anytime you brake, the data is counted for the Trip Summary Brake Score. The Brake Score that appears on the dash is as described above, it's only for braking events where you come to a complete stop. You can do an experiment to understand. Turn your car on & accelerate. Now brake hard, but don't come to a complete stop. Now accelerate again & brake gently so that you get a 100% Brake Score showing when you stop. Now turn off your car & check out your Trip Summary Brake Score. It will not be 100%. I've had many trips where every time I come to a complete stop I see 100% Brake Score, but at the end of the trip my Trip Summary Brake Score is 99%. This means that somewhere I braked hard enough to engage the friction brakes early, but it wasn't a complete stop so I didn't see the percentage displayed.

 

It's also been previously discussed that all 100% Brake Scores are not created equally. 100% just means you got the most energy possible based on how your braked. But, larryh has shown with his experiments that braking efficiency varies based on motor RPM (dependent on wheel speed) and motor power (how many kW are being generated). 100% just means you didn't engage the friction brakes any more than absolutely necessary.

 

The car will also engage the friction brakes instead of regen if you're braking & turning at the same time. When you're turning & the wheel speed varies, the car needs to brake each wheel with different amounts of force. Since regen braking occurs at the axle, it can't put differing levels of torque on each wheel.