Ford Model E to replace C-Max (reports)

[zalusky]

I need longer range.  If I want to drive from SF to LA its 300+ miles.  I don't plan on owning multiple cars or having to wait at Bakersfield for hours for another kick in the pants.

 

I am so used to my 600 mile tank on the MAX.  I don't think I can go all electric.

[Kelleytoons]

Yeah, I can't see me going all electric either, not in my lifetime (admittedly a lot less than most of you :>).

 

It just creates too many things I need to worry about, not the least is then trying to find a place to plug in even if all I want to do is go for a 150 mile trip.  I do think the infrastructure will get there but, again, probably not soon enough for me.

 

Love my hybrid Max, though.

[stevedebi]

I need longer range.  If I want to drive from SF to LA its 300+ miles.  I don't plan on owning multiple cars or having to wait at Bakersfield for hours for another kick in the pants.

 

I am so used to my 600 mile tank on the MAX.  I don't think I can go all electric.

You also have to account for any uphill, which will eat away at range.

[djc]

All electric with 200 mile range may make good sense as to many 2-car families.

 

Perhaps Ford will try a mostly electric hybrid that uses a small gas engine, like (but better than) the BWM i3 REx.    Apparently Ford offers a small and light-weight turbo 3-cylinder in the C-max in Europe:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine

 

This Ford 3-cylinder is small (block is the size of a standard A4 sheet of paper, says Wikipedia) and light (213 lbs).   This is a larger more capable engine than the tiny 650cc 2-cyl engine in the BMW (reportedly borrowed from a BWM scooter)    In a hybrid vehicle an option might be to use an electric supercharger as needed to squeeze more power out of a tiny light-wieght engine.  Ford could build a car that runs mostly on electric and battery, but can run adequately on gas and top itself up   As battery costs continue to fall, we may see more hybrids that shift the balance from relying mainly on gas to relying mainly on EV, while keeping a long range. 

 

Fords widely used 1.6L Ecoboost engine weighs just 250 lbs, according to the article above.  That's only 30-40 lbs more than the 1.0L, with a big increase in displacement / torque.  Of course using gas engines entails additional weight and space for cooling, exhaust, fuel tank and fuel.

[stevedebi]

All electric with 200 mile range may make good sense as to many 2-car families.

 

Perhaps Ford will try a mostly electric hybrid that uses a small gas engine, like (but better than) the BWM i3 REx.    Apparently Ford offers a small and light-weight turbo 3-cylinder in the C-max in Europe:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine

 

This Ford 3-cylinder is small (block is the size of a standard A4 sheet of paper, says Wikipedia) and light (213 lbs).   This is a larger more capable engine than the tiny 650cc 2-cyl engine in the BMW (reportedly borrowed from a BWM scooter)    In a hybrid vehicle an option might be to use an electric supercharger as needed to squeeze more power out of a tiny light-wieght engine.  Ford could build a car that runs mostly on electric and battery, but can run adequately on gas and top itself up   As battery costs continue to fall, we may see more hybrids that shift the balance from relying mainly on gas to relying mainly on EV, while keeping a long range. 

 

Fords widely used 1.6L Ecoboost engine weighs just 250 lbs, according to the article above.  That's only 30-40 lbs more than the 1.0L, with a big increase in displacement / torque.  Of course using gas engines entails additional weight and space for cooling, exhaust, fuel tank and fuel.

There is a reason BMW went with that engine and only 2 gallons of gas: The EPA won't classify it as a BEV unless it truly is electric only. The car you describe would be a PHEV. I'm not sure the cost of the batteries for a 200 mile hybrid would be worth the expense, since BEVs are needed to satisfy mileage and "clean car" requirements in CARB states. They can get PHEV status for much less cost.

Edited May 6, 2016 by stevedebi

[JohnnOhio]

So Ford is going to not build a hybrid version of the cmax for the states. Wonder if that means no cmax for Europian market also.

Is Ford going to make a new hybrid or just make ev car only? Maybe make a current model into a hybrid rid so that you have a choice if you don't want an ev?

How about another escape hybrid? That would be a good option to Cmax

[raadsel]

So Ford is going to not build a hybrid version of the cmax for the states. Wonder if that means no cmax for Europian market also.

Is Ford going to make a new hybrid or just make ev car only? Maybe make a current model into a hybrid rid so that you have a choice if you don't want an ev?

How about another escape hybrid? That would be a good option to Cmax

 

I'm sure the C-Max will be continued in Europe as it has previously. The European edition of the C-Max has never had a hybrid option (though I believe the C-Max Energi was sold in The Netherlands), just gas and diesel models -- they also have an updated body style that started last year (from what I recall). The European models are built in Spain, whereas all Hybrid and Energi C-Max have been built in Michigan (though may be moving to Mexico -- though it sounds like they will just be discontinued).

[djc]

So Ford is going to not build a hybrid version of the cmax for the states. Wonder if that means no cmax for Europian market also.

 

 

Ford has been selling about 85,000 Euro C-max a year, according to left-lane.com.  Peak year, over 150k, was 2004, the year after introduction. 

According to the chart on page linked below, in 2016 C-max (including "Grand") sales are 4th out of 14 in the mid-sized MPV segment in Europe.  Prius is in that segment - and way at the bottom (could be late arrival of the 2016 model):

 

http://left-lane.com/car-sales-europe/car-sales-segments/midsized-mpv-segment/

 

So decent sales and recent make-over suggest Euro C-max will continue.  Since the new EV will be produced along side the Focus at the Mexico plant, it seems reasonable to conclude it will be based on the same platform.

[raadsel]

It is also worth noting the C-Max is based off of the Focus platform, as well as the Escape. I think the real question is if they will continue a utility/station wagon type of hybrid, or will the E be more like a Focus to maximize fuel economy (perhaps a bit like the Prius or Hyundai Ioniq).

[SnowStorm]

Certainly the Model E will be a "platform" design which implies multiple body styles coming out.  They should/could have:

1. A Sedan (Fusion) for all you sedan lovers.  Sleek with, no doubt, the lowest drag.
2. A Tall Wagon (C-Max) for those who want higher seating and need to haul stuff.
3. An SUV (Escape) for even more cargo space and high ground clearance.
4. A Sports Car (Thunderbird!)
5. A Van (Transit Connect)
6. A Pickup Truck (Ranger)

Who knows what Ford will do or when but once you go to a 200+ mile battery you get a lot more possibilities than just more distance between charges.  The increased kilowatt-hours also brings a proportional increase in peak power capability.  This boost can provide power for:

1. Towing - hopefully a rating on all models but at least on the Wagon, SUV, Van and Truck
2. Performance - a plus for all models but especially the Sports Car and sporty Sedan variants.
3. All Wheel Drive - of course you can do it with lower power but it makes a lot of sense to dump all that power into all 4 wheels (and then you have the competition to consider).  They should just make it standard on all models.

Large batteries also give you:

1. More total miles driven before capacity drops by XX%
2. The possibility of those unlimited mileage warranties.
3. The ability to get 2 hours of driving time from a 20 minute charge since you don't have to charge to 100% (the first part of a charge goes much faster - then the charger has to cut back on current).  Of course the charger has to put out a lot of current which brings us to the last point:

Ford needs to address the charging issue in a serious way.  The chargers need to be available "everywhere", available for any use (not just "travel"), put out the necessary current and be free or priced in a way that keeps the cost low.  Some options for pricing are:

1. Free (or free during "off-peak" electric rate hours)
2. Bought as an option with the car (your fuel gets rolled into your car payment - after which you can drive as much as you want).  If you don't buy this option, you would use the one below.
3. Priced per kW-Hr used but adjusted for time-of-day electric rates - you only pay actual electricity costs.  Done right, this one could be the most "fair" (whatever that means!).

[stevedebi]

 

Certainly the Model E will be a "platform" design which implies multiple body styles coming out.  They should/could have:

1. A Sedan (Fusion) for all you sedan lovers.  Sleek with, no doubt, the lowest drag.
2. A Tall Wagon (C-Max) for those who want higher seating and need to haul stuff.
3. An SUV (Escape) for even more cargo space and high ground clearance.
4. A Sports Car (Thunderbird!)
5. A Van (Transit Connect)
6. A Pickup Truck (Ranger)

Who knows what Ford will do or when but once you go to a 200+ mile battery you get a lot more possibilities than just more distance between charges.  The increased kilowatt-hours also brings a proportional increase in peak power capability.  This boost can provide power for:

1. Towing - hopefully a rating on all models but at least on the Wagon, SUV, Van and Truck
2. Performance - a plus for all models but especially the Sports Car and sporty Sedan variants.
3. All Wheel Drive - of course you can do it with lower power but it makes a lot of sense to dump all that power into all 4 wheels (and then you have the competition to consider).  They should just make it standard on all models.

Large batteries also give you:

1. More total miles driven before capacity drops by XX%
2. The possibility of those unlimited mileage warranties.
3. The ability to get 2 hours of driving time from a 20 minute charge since you don't have to charge to 100% (the first part of a charge goes much faster - then the charger has to cut back on current).  Of course the charger has to put out a lot of current which brings us to the last point:

Ford needs to address the charging issue in a serious way.  The chargers need to be available "everywhere", available for any use (not just "travel"), put out the necessary current and be free or priced in a way that keeps the cost low.  Some options for pricing are:

1. Free (or free during "off-peak" electric rate hours)
2. Bought as an option with the car (your fuel gets rolled into your car payment - after which you can drive as much as you want).  If you don't buy this option, you would use the one below.
3. Priced per kW-Hr used but adjusted for time-of-day electric rates - you only pay actual electricity costs.  Done right, this one could be the most "fair" (whatever that means!).

 

Sorry, but no way Ford is going to provide free chargers at various locations. They are not an electric car company. They are an ICE car company that sells some PHEV and BEV, plus hybrids, to satisfy CAFE and environmental requirements. I don't see any profit in it for them (or for Tesla, which is probably what you are thinking).

 

As to paying, I don't see them getting into that either. If you really want that sort of thing, you can get a Blink card or similar. Ford is a car company.

 

Towing and AWD are contrary to good fuel economy. In my opinion, a BEV or PHEV is the worst possible engine choice for towing. AWD can be OK if it is electric, like Toyota does - but that is pretty much useless for off road.

[homestead]

Sorry, but no way Ford is going to provide free chargers at various locations. They are not an electric car company. They are an ICE car company that sells some PHEV and BEV, plus hybrids, to satisfy CAFE and environmental requirements. I don't see any profit in it for them (or for Tesla, which is probably what you are thinking).

 

I see lots of empty chargers at Ford dealers, that would be one option.

[raadsel]

Sorry, but no way Ford is going to provide free chargers at various locations. They are not an electric car company. They are an ICE car company that sells some PHEV and BEV, plus hybrids, to satisfy CAFE and environmental requirements. I don't see any profit in it for them (or for Tesla, which is probably what you are thinking).

 

As to paying, I don't see them getting into that either. If you really want that sort of thing, you can get a Blink card or similar. Ford is a car company.

 

Towing and AWD are contrary to good fuel economy. In my opinion, a BEV or PHEV is the worst possible engine choice for towing. AWD can be OK if it is electric, like Toyota does - but that is pretty much useless for off road.

 

And just to add, Tesla's "free charging" is meant for travel only -- they did it so their drivers could drive across the country -- they aren't meant for everyday use. Tesla has even started reminding drivers that and may even start enforcing at some point, as local drivers at some locations have prevented people who are actually traveling from being able to recharge in a timely manner.

 

We do need, as a society, to create more charging stations. Of course, at this point it is something of a "chicken and egg" situation -- without charging stations you don't have much demand for BEVs, but without BEV's there is no demand for charging stations. Worse, most of those buying BEVs right now do it as a second vehicle so they can always charge it at home (never need to take it beyond it's range). At some point, it seems like someone (likely will have to be government) will need to invest in charging stations to get them up and running, which will then fuel BEV sales, which will drive demand for additional charging stations.

 

Of course, we still need better batteries. While having close to a 300 mile range is workable, the fact remains it still doesn't compare to cars (like the C-Max) which can get 600 miles or more on a single tank of gas.

[mtta]

And just to add, Tesla's "free charging" is meant for travel only -- they did it so their drivers could drive across the country -- they aren't meant for everyday use. Tesla has even started reminding drivers that and may even start enforcing at some point, as local drivers at some locations have prevented people who are actually traveling from being able to recharge in a timely manner.

 

We do need, as a society, to create more charging stations. Of course, at this point it is something of a "chicken and egg" situation -- without charging stations you don't have much demand for BEVs, but without BEV's there is no demand for charging stations. Worse, most of those buying BEVs right now do it as a second vehicle so they can always charge it at home (never need to take it beyond it's range). At some point, it seems like someone (likely will have to be government) will need to invest in charging stations to get them up and running, which will then fuel BEV sales, which will drive demand for additional charging stations.

 

Of course, we still need better batteries. While having close to a 300 mile range is workable, the fact remains it still doesn't compare to cars (like the C-Max) which can get 600 miles or more on a single tank of gas.

 

You could suggest a gas-station chain installing a pay charger at each station, around the side of the building. But there is no pricing model in place, and it still takes something like 30 minutes to use a "supercharger". If you install one or two, people can't rely on it being available for use, because someone might already be there. So I can't imagine chargers being installed more places than at malls, rest stops, etc. May be more of a market for chargers at apartment places.

 

I think more and more cars will be hybrids, and as batteries improve the gas engines will shrink. All-gas cars, and all-battery cars, may both wind up being niche products. People will commute with battery power, and travel with gas.

[scottwood2]

And just to add, Tesla's "free charging" is meant for travel only -- they did it so their drivers could drive across the country -- they aren't meant for everyday use. Tesla has even started reminding drivers that and may even start enforcing at some point, as local drivers at some locations have prevented people who are actually traveling from being able to recharge in a timely manner.

 

We do need, as a society, to create more charging stations. Of course, at this point it is something of a "chicken and egg" situation -- without charging stations you don't have much demand for BEVs, but without BEV's there is no demand for charging stations. Worse, most of those buying BEVs right now do it as a second vehicle so they can always charge it at home (never need to take it beyond it's range). At some point, it seems like someone (likely will have to be government) will need to invest in charging stations to get them up and running, which will then fuel BEV sales, which will drive demand for additional charging stations.

 

Of course, we still need better batteries. While having close to a 300 mile range is workable, the fact remains it still doesn't compare to cars (like the C-Max) which can get 600 miles or more on a single tank of gas.

I understand the want to push for cross country trips with Tesla but I don't understand why you would want to do so.   Here is what I found for Tesla charge time

 

"Tesla supercharging stations charge with up to 120 kW of power, or up to 16 times as fast as public charging stations; they take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100%."

 

So if I want to take a nice vacation I can travel 170 miles (what I found for range on a model S) or just say 200 mile before I run out of battery.   At 70 MPH I would have to stop less than every 3 hours to recharge.  If I find a super charger and it is available then I have to sit there for 40 min just to get to 80% charged or 75 min to full charge.  That said roughly 25% of my trip time is recharging (if the chargers are on the direct route and available).  

 

So my 20 hour trip to Florida is now 25 hours or more.   I think this is a step in the right direction but it has to be better than that to get me to buy in.     The same 20 hour trip in the C-Max (1400 miles) costs about $70 right now.   On top of that the same trip might end up being 2 or 3 days in a Tesla compared to 1 to 2 days in the C-Max. 

 

Not to slam the Tesla here.  It would be the same or worst (depending on the recharge rate) for any all electric right now.  To me right now having a way to recharge on the fly is the best way to go.  Plug in and recharge when you can and not have to stop for recharging. 

[stevedebi]

I see lots of empty chargers at Ford dealers, that would be one option.

Yeah, I almost mentioned that one. My dealer has about 6 spaces. But that is an advertising cost, not intended for regular charging.

[homestead]

Yeah, I almost mentioned that one. My dealer has about 6 spaces. But that is an advertising cost, not intended for regular charging.

 

And while you are charging they can try to sell you a new car.  Surprised they haven't thought of that one.

[stevedebi]

And while you are charging they can try to sell you a new car.  Surprised they haven't thought of that one.

It also has a practical use. They charge up the cars after repairs and before delivery.

[ptjones]

Also they should be keeping the cars on the lot charged. :)

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

Also they should be keeping the cars on the lot charged. :)

 

Paul

 

Also they should be keeping the cars on the lot charged. :)

 

Paul

The local dealer keeps about 30 Energi (or more) on the lot - they are not going to cycle that many cars through the dealership. But it isn't the HVB that is the problem - the 12v dies.

[ptjones]

Doesn't also charge the 12v batt when you charge the HVB?

[Smiling Jack]

Doesn't also charge the 12v batt when you charge the HVB?

 

Paul

 

Yes

[jackalopetx]

So Ford is only going to make the Fusion in hybrid form? 

 

Somehow it makes sense to them to only sell a hybrid that impractical people who like sedans would buy?

[Marc Smith]

Scott.  let look at a trip in the tesla from detriot to miami  21 hours(non stop) 1381 miles

 

Cmax- 600 miles range  so if you start will a full tank you would need to stop 2 times for fuel.   figure 30 minutes for each stop.  so now your trip is 22 hours.    not sure baout you  but  600 miles between stops is tough for me.  and I like to eat my three meals.  so we are looking at potentially three more stops of 30 minutes each,  now we are up to 23.5 hours.

 

the model S 85KW batter pack was rated at 320 miles by tesla....  EPA rates it at 265.   so lets say 250 miles.  which means you have to stop 5 times. if you start with full battery.  could do it with one less stop if you can squeeze  345 miles on a full charge

if we assume 60 minutes for a full charge  your 21 hour non stop time  has changed to 26 hours.  as opposed to 23.5.  thats not too hateful

 

if you plan on spending the night in a hotel on the trip down, I'd say the difference really becomes negligible at that point. 

 

in theory  you could only charge the battery to 80% in half the time, and make twice as many stops (rest breaks)  which is better from a drivers perspective anyhow and do it the same amount of time...

[jdbob]

This guy in Norway is an expert in knowing just how much to charge to get to the next supercharger with minimal range left. He does this because the charging is fastest at low state of charge then tapers off. Food and bathroom breaks during charging results in very little time actually waiting for charge completion. Here's his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/bjornnyland