How to Drive a CMAX Hybrid/FFH to get Great Gas Mileage

[homestead]

Yes, many times.  I've got several posts with graphs describing / showing the operation under certain conditions wihich is consistent with what hyridbear saw and posted on the Fusion Hybrid forum. I have validated that my grille shutter actual position shown in ForScan appears to be the actual physical position of the shutters.  The shutters can move through 16 positions from 0-90 degrees or about 5.5 degrees per step depending on ambient temperature, AC on/off, speed, and coolant temperature being the most significant variables to shutter operation.  There may be other variables that I am not aware of.

 

I believe that adding grille covers "confuses" the shutter control algorithm as the algorithm gets feedback of actual shutter position.  My guess is that when commanded performance (such as shutters commanded to open expecting certain effect on temp) doesn't match expected performance within an error bandwidth (shutter indicated matches commanded yet temp is outside expected), the shutters may default to commanded full open / close when perhaps they should be partially open. One may also see errratic shutter operation from fully closed to fully open trying to match performance being seen with shutter position.

 

Thanks, I wonder if you hard wired the shutters fully closed if it would give the same effect as having a grill cover?

[plus 3 golfer]

Couple of points:

 

1) There are studies on effect of shutters on AC.   Higher condenser temps due to less air flow because of closed shutters result in higher compressor load and higher fan speed load. There's an optimal shutter opening that will maximize FE when running AC.  That's why at 0 mph, the shutters are full open when AC is on and as speed increases shutters close to 40% open at about 50 mph and  increase opening when ambient temp is above 70F.  So, if you hard wired shut the shutters, you will likely decrease FE when you use AC.  This is the primary reason I stopped using covers when I  (my wife) run AC (which in Phoenix is 12 months a year.

 

2)  ECT and TFT could run too hot under certain condition and it would likely be a pain to un-hardwire.  :)  

 

3)  The Cd is likely lower with covers over the grills rather than having the grills closed with no covers.

[ptjones]

I did YouTube videos back in 2016 of shutter operations and from the videos you can see shutters are either open or closed, no in between. In A/C operation the shutters are open all the way all the time no matter speed or WT.  Link: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/970-cmax-grill-cover-testing-2-5-mpg-gain/page-11and post #211. :)  Under normal operating conditions shutters open at 210*F at 55 mph and 215*F at 63+ mph.

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

I did YouTube videos back in 2016 of shutter operations and from the videos you can see shutters are either open or closed, no in between. In A/C operation the shutters are open all the way all the time no matter speed or WT.  Link: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/970-cmax-grill-cover-testing-2-5-mpg-gain/page-11and post #211. :)  Under normal operating conditions shutters open at 210*F at 55 mph and 215*F at 63+ mph.

 

Paul 

This makes no sense from a control perspective as being a "controls engineer" in my early career.  One would design a system to anticipate approaching a max. / min. trigger point and start controls prior to reaching trigger point.   Also, Ford clearly states this with repect  to 13b07:

 

• Optimizing the use of Active Grille Shutters to reduce aerodynamic drag under more driving and temperature conditions including cold weather, during air conditioner use, and when the engine coolant temperature is higher.

Note the highlighted red text -  More conditions not less.   In fact, hybridbear and I see the same controls (more driving and temperature conditions to optimize the use of the shutters) which is not what you continue to post which is virtually on / off operations.  Below are links to hybridbear's post.   IMO, your 13b07 calibration is incorrect or your grille covers are "confusing" the algorithm.  

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9689-road-trip-observations-with-torque-pro/?p=100796

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9839-high-transmission-temperature/page-6?do=findComment&comment=98575

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9689-road-trip-observations-with-torque-pro/page-3?do=findComment&comment=97728

Edited October 21, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

I checked My thread: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/970-cmax-grill-cover-testing-2-5-mpg-gain/page-1   and anything before Jan. 16, 2013 is gone, but I remember my testing with camera/laptop before update the shutters moved in steps and after update they don't.  The update also raised up the temps the shutters open IIRC 5 to 10*F which could help HWY MPG's. My videos show shutters are effected by temps and speed.  Shutters only help aerodynamics and  heating up the ICE when they are closed.  

 

Plus 3 Golfer it would be helpful if you or someone else could video the operations of shutters using ScanGaugeII or other OBDII gauge to compared to my video.  

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

I checked My thread: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/970-cmax-grill-cover-testing-2-5-mpg-gain/page-1   and anything before Jan. 16, 2013 is gone, but I remember my testing with camera/laptop before update the shutters moved in steps and after update they don't.  The update also raised up the temps the shutters open IIRC 5 to 10*F which could help HWY MPG's. My videos show shutters are effected by temps and speed.  Shutters only help aerodynamics and  heating up the ICE when they are closed.  

 

Plus 3 Golfer it would be helpful if you or someone else could video the operations of shutters using ScanGaugeII or other OBDII gauge to compared to my video.  

 

Paul

Ok I finally recorded data (video and Forscan data).  It's going to take me some time to sync graphs from Forscan data with the video. 

 

Here's what I see and said in other threads:

 

1)  it's very difficult to see on videos grille opening less than 10-15 degrees. 

2)  as I stated in other threads, once coolant temp reaches about 195* upto when grilles are fully open  (full open appears to vary between 212 - 217* depending on speed) the shutters % open can vary considerably and quickly.  

3) when AC is turned on shutters appear to fully open when coolant temp is high around 195* I have to check Forscan data.  Below such coolant temp, shutter opening  varies with speed and temp. 

 

So, I believe we are seeing the same operation at high coolant temps.  Except you are infering that such high temp shutter operation  applies to all coolant temps and speed :  "I did YouTube videos back in 2016 of shutter operations and from the videos you can see shutters are either open or closed, no in between. In A/C operation the shutters are open all the way all the time no matter speed or WT."  Your statement only applies to very high coolant temps that are typically only seen with grille covers on.  I believe I got up to 217 * driving in low at 60 - 65 with ambient in low 90s* .  You will see from my data there is a lot of "in between" shutter operation between 195* + and up.to full close temp.

 

 

 

 

[ptjones]

Going from the info I have from YouTube videos that the shutters are open or closed I think FORD wrote a loop into the ECM program that takes the percentage open value and compares to the fully open value in a program loop and if they are the  same the shutters open all the way, if not they stay closed.  Like I said before the update with the same setup I could see the shutters move in steps. So unless someone can show a current video of shutter operations different than mine this is the only scenario than makes sense to me.  So there is a chance that the shutters never open without Grill Covers.  :headscratch: Only with the A/C on.

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

Going from the info I have from YouTube videos that the shutters are open or closed I think FORD wrote a loop into the ECM program that takes the percentage open value and compares to the fully open value in a program loop and if they are the  same the shutters open all the way, if not they stay closed.  Like I said before the update with the same setup I could see the shutters move in steps. So unless someone can show a current video of shutter operations different than mine this is the only scenario than makes sense to me.  So there is a chance that the shutters never open without Grill Covers.  :headscratch: Only with the A/C on.

 

Paul

What?  makes no sense.  Watch  video especially starting at around 3:20. Also, look carefully because at low open %, the shutters look closed but are not. 

 

When I get to the ForScan data, I'll put time on the Forscan graph.  The last 3-4 minutes is when coolant temp was about 195 and higher.  Note how the shutters are partially open and cioolant temp was above 200+.  Graph will show that. :)

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

This is the Grill Covers Thread that shows shutter operations using a ScanGaugeII to monitor WT, TFT, IA and mph.  My video wasn't magnified enough to see small 10 degree opening of the shutters, but it was pretty clear they are pretty much closed or open.  Only fluctuated when it was at the change over point. 

 

"I got my wife to help me video the shutter operations with WebCam, LapTop, ScanGaugeII and IPhone 6+.  I have YouTube links to two videos.   You can see shutters open at 215-216*F going 65 mph and close at 214*F.  Also see A/C vs shutter operation when turned on and off. These videos were done with both Center and Lower Grills covered up and OT of 85*F.  Needless to say my wife was a real trooper to put up with those temps and also covered up with black material to get the glare down on the Lap Top.  BTW I used a piece of masking tape to make it easier to see the shutters move. Not a professional job, but I think you will get the Idea."   :)

 

Video 1: 

Video 2: 

 

If you have a problem you can search you tube for 2013 CMAX Shutter Test

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

Attached is a graph from ForScan data that is synced to the  time stamps in the youtube video in my post above that shows that it is difficult to tell the differences between full close and around 10-15 degrees or so open. Look at the following closely and compare video time stamp shown below with graph time stamp. It also indicates that with AC off, shutters are relatively closed even with high ECT temps.  

 

Watching videos is not a very good way to determine why shutters open and close as I learned several years ago when I watched my shutter operation without ForScan data.  In additon, based on what I've seen with ForScan data under many different operating conditions, Ford's algorithms are likely similar to what I've read about in various studies and likely implemented in 13B07.  The goal after ICE reached reached a certain operating temperature would be to operate more efficiently by comparing: 1) the aerodynamic benefits of closing shutters (should be less load on ICE and better FE when closing shutters) against 2) effect on operating conditions especially additional load on ICE because of closing shutters (like AC ON and higher compresser and likely fan demand which will decrease FE).  Thus, speed plays a role in shutter operation because benefits of aerodynamic improvements are minimal at lower speeds.  Use AC at low speeds, increase opening of shutters.  Use AC at higher speeds decrease opening of shutters from full open.  More on this in a following post on shutter operation with AC on. 

 

Also, there will be improved FE from warming up ICE quicker and to a higher operating temperature by closing shutters.  Use of grille covers, if not running AC, should increase aero benefits over closed grille shutters.

 

I will add another post showing ForScan graphs with AC ON and shutter positions.

 

1) TS 3:40 shows shutters full close with AC off and speed less 50 mph. Note this TS.

 

2) TS 4:15 shows about a 5% open with AC off and mph greater than 50 mph and ECT is about 194F.  You have to look closely to see the opening. With video stopped, move the slider  back to the TS in point1 and then back to TS in this step.  Note the ever so slight difference.

 

3)  TS 4:39 shows opening around 15% and ECT is about 205F. Even 15% looks closed. Again look back to step 1 TS and compare.

 

4)  TS 4:47 shows opening increased to around 33% as speed above about 50 mph and WT around 216F. Most would think this opening is less than 33%. 

 

5)  TS 6:01 shows closing back to around 15% as speed fell below 50 mph.

 

6)  Note also that when I came "almost" stop sign (look at graph with speed approaching 0 mph), shutters opened very quickly to virtually 100% again with No AC on.

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

Getting back to topic of getting Great Gas Mileage, I developed Grill Covers to fix the problems with the shutters which they do very well. FORD said the normal operating temps for  the ICE are 202 -212*F so if you are running temps less than 202*F you are wasting gas. The opening temp for shutters is 212 to 216*F from my testing.  Also my testing shows the best MPG's happen from 210*F to 230*F and the only way this happens is if you are using Grill Covers and I use both about 90% of the time. :)

 

Paul

[MaxHeadroom]

One easy way to gain an estimated +0.2 to +0.4 MPG is to use a special engine oil I found recently.  Eneos Racing Street (RS) 0w-20, a qualified API SN GF-5 oil I got from Amazon.

 

What makes it different than, say, a typical 0w-20 like Mobil1 AFE 0w-20:

 

• Friction Modifier (reducer):  Eneos has 900 ppm moly; Mobil1 has 88 ppm moly.
• Viscous Friction reduction:  Eneos has a KV40 of 29 cSt; Mobil1 is 45 cSt.
• Both are full synthetic.  Eneos's base oil is all Group3+ (like Pennzoil Platinum's PurePlus base oil), while Mobil1's base oils is about half PAO, half Group3.
• Both oils have the same, usual, typical HTHS 2.7, which indicates how much hydrodynamic lubrication conditions happen in an engine, and its important to be at 2.7 here, kind of an important number which both oils have.
• I know the word 'racing' is in the name, next to the word 'street', yet the API SN GF-5 rating means this is a fully qualified street engine oil.

 

More moly (Molybdenum compounds) is actually quite protective (wear) as well as reducing friction, and Eneos has a lot more.  Several Japanese oil formulators like Eneos take a high-moly approach for some unknown reason, getting more friction benefits than just the minimal necessary to pass the certification specifications.  Another story there I won't go into.

 

The difference in viscosity (KV40 for example) will help an engine during cold-cool-warm operation to get better MPG via less viscous friction drag.  Especially pronounced in the winter, yet will help in summer too.

 

Base oil is of very good quality & performance, as Group3+ is a great performer, very similar to Mobil1 going with half PAO, half Group3 (note their Group3 is not Group3+).

 

Eneos Racing Street 0w-20 does cost more.  I ordered a 6-pack from Amazon and it was $66, no tax, no shipping (Prime).  Not cheap, I know.

Only for hypermilers or somebody who really values extra MPG here. 

Mobil1 AFE 0w20 at about $5 per quart in big jug is the bargain at Walmart, yet without all that moly & better viscosity.

[plus 3 golfer]

Getting back to topic of getting Great Gas Mileage, I developed Grill Covers to fix the problems with the shutters which they do very well. FORD said the normal operating temps for  the ICE are 202 -212*F so if you are running temps less than 202*F you are wasting gas. The opening temp for shutters is 212 to 216*F from my testing.  Also my testing shows the best MPG's happen from 210*F to 230*F and the only way this happens is if you are using Grill Covers and I use both about 90% of the time. :)

 

Paul

OK,  I  think we see similar except that your videos are poor quality and one can't really see much except full / near full opening and can't tell how closed the shutters really are plus you have the grille covers on when video recording.   I recall you believing that the shutters are "leaky" - allowing a lot of air around them in the past  This really is likely more of not being able to see smaller shutter opening in your videos. 

 

The point would be to record normal shutter operations showing open positions like my video as it is an easier sell on grille covers.  It's easier to convince others that your grille covers will help improve FE because of enchanced aero dynamics, quicker warmup, higher operating temps and so forth because normal shutter operations allow air to flow through under many conditions while yours block virtually all air flow.  But evidently you consider this "off topic."  :)

 

Bottom line when covers are on it's moot how the shutters opperate. You need to show operations without shutters on. ;)    

 

I agree that grille covers do improve FE as I have used them (as you know purchased from you) and tested them.  :)  

[joshg678]

With that Chart I don’t think there’s a need for the video as it has the data I think we need.

I’m very curious as to why they open so much at low speeds. I would think they should just be closed all the way until cooling is needed.

 

The Grill covers do help keep the heat in the radiator when stopped vs without. Likely due to the shutters opening.

 

Is there a way to get the PID for the shutters on the Scannon gauge?

[ptjones]

I looked and couldn't find any codes for shutter position for ScanGaugeII, maybe someone else can find them. :headscratch:  I did email ScanGaugeII  service for help.

 

One important note concerning Grill Covers is they don't block all air flow to radiator and ICE compartment.  Standard Velcro installation some air gets around covers into cooling systems, also air goes thru top grill to cool ICE Compartment.  During the Winter I will add top Grill Cover which adds about 5 *F to average running temps and also I will tape up center Grill Cover to minimize air flow to ICE compartment. :)

 

Paul

[joshg678]

I don't think i'll do the tape any more, never could get all the stuff off of mine and parts of the bumper look bad

[plus 3 golfer]

With that Chart I don’t think there’s a need for the video as it has the data I think we need.

I’m very curious as to why they open so much at low speeds. I would think they should just be closed all the way until cooling is needed.

 

The Grill covers do help keep the heat in the radiator when stopped vs without. Likely due to the shutters opening.

 

Is there a way to get the PID for the shutters on the Scannon gauge?

Correct you don't need a video.  What I'm going to do is to start a new topic just for shutter operation as there will likely be lots of graphs posted (no videos :)).  I took my wife to the airport today and also dog to vet.  So, I recorded a couple hours worth of data at low early morning ambient temps (61-65F) at speeds up 75+mph and slower speed through develpment.   We can look at lower and higher speed data under the new topic. with and without AC.  I will also continue to record at higher ambient temps.  I believe the charts will all look similar except shutter opening generally start out higher with higher ambient temps.  Turning on AC kicks the opening even higher.  

 

Like I have always said grille covers do increase temps and aerodymaics and thus FE.  I don't like running grille covers at high ambient temps with AC on as ECT will generally be 220F+- at interstate speeds and higher going up steeper grades.  The highest I've seen was 234F.  

I looked and couldn't find any codes for shutter position for ScanGaugeII, maybe someone else can find them. :headscratch:  I did email ScanGaugeII  service for help.

 

One important note concerning Grill Covers is they don't block all air flow to radiator and ICE compartment.  Standard Velcro installation some air gets around covers into cooling systems, also air goes thru top grill to cool ICE Compartment.  During the Winter I will add top Grill Cover which adds about 5 *F to average running temps and also I will tape up center Grill Cover to minimize air flow to ICE compartment. :)

 

Paul

Yes, I did seal my grille covers with tape on several round trips from TN to Pittsburgh in colder weather but don't recall exact effect on temp but temps were higher and tape was a pain to remove 

   

I searched for the shutter PIDs also before I got ForScan for several of the other Apps I had for my smartphone with no luck.  You might hit up the Forscan forum.  I believe someone asked Forscan for PIDs (not specifically for shutters).  I can't remember their answer but I don't think they gave any out.  But some member might know.

[ptjones]

I filled up  yesterday and got Premium for $2.63/gal at Sam's Club Buford, GA 13.1 gallons for $34.46. :)  With average temps going down MPG's are going down a little too. I started out yesterday at 57.6 mpg with 525 miles on the tank, drove to North Georgia Mountains taking pics of Fall Leaves changing colors and Water Falls. About 200 miles later my MPG's had dropped to 56.6 mpg when I filled up and actual Fuelly 54.8 mpg.  If you haven't put Grill Covers on your car yet maybe you should. Oil Pan Heaters help to  warm up the ICE quicker too. :)

 

Paul

[homestead]

I filled up yesterday too. I even did better than my last tank of 48.1.   In the middle of this run I drove across the Cascade mountains in Oregon and so to get back home I filled up in Bend and didn't reset the counter.  Got 48.5 mpg for 829 miles.  The Homestead family got another C-max a couple weeks ago.  My Son's family got a loaded 2016 blue C-max Energi with 17k miles on it.  He has a 1hr commute (one way) each day so he is thrilled with the savings in gas so far.  He got 191.8 mpg going to work and 51mpg going home.

 

Paul you need to move to Phoenix in the winter to keep your mpgs up.  :)

[ptjones]

Yesterday I drove to Lexington, KY and back, 800 miles on I-85/I-285/I-75, all FWY with speeds 80-55 mph and averaging 59.2 mph.  Temps were 40-50*F/ went 670.8 miles/13.2 gal and got 50.8 mpg, Fuelly.com actual mpg's. I got Premium from SAM's Club for $2.57/gal. This is another good example how well Grill Covers work.  With a 20 to 30*F drop in temps from 70*F, you lose 4-6 mpg's in gas mileage. :)

 

Paul

Edited November 17, 2018 by ptjones

[ptjones]

I had a heater hose fitting start leaking back in Nov. which I tried to fix myself, but turned to be a big  job so I ended up getting FORD to fix it for $1,100, ouch! :sad:  Well with 218k mi. things are bond to break down.  I took MADMAX with only 40 miles on the tank and around 50 mpg and I got it back with 16 mpg :sad: and it took 550 miles HWY driving to get it to 44.6 mpg.  I learned something that I suspected for sometime that MADMAX gets better MPG's running WT temps between 218*F to 230*F with center and bottom Grill Covers on than 206*F to 220*F with partial bottom Grill Cover on for an improvement of .5-1 MPG.

Shows bottom Grill Cover with holes to let more air through.

 

Paul

[ptjones]

Got Premium gas last night at Sam's for $2.67 and Reg. was $2.41 so I'm getting pretty close to break even point of cost vs mpg improvement now. 

 

Paul

[joshg678]

I wish i had a place that sold E15-E85 fuel as i want to see how high of a mixture of Ethanol i can use before the car throws code. And compare the fuel economy to cost savings.

I've heard that newer cars can typical account for 30-50% without issue, even if they don't "support it".

I remember one time my Brother-In-Law had a rental car that didn't support it, put a full tank of E85 and it was missing a bit and had a code, but after using about a 1/4 and adding E10, it was running fine.

[fbov]

A code is a short-term problem.

 

I would be more concerned about the long term effect of different chemistry in the fuel lines. I seem to recall that seals degrade if not designed for high alcohol fraction in the fuel? Any major repairs would swamp the cost savings.  

 

Have fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

I also agree with fbov there is a reason why they limit the amount of Ethanol to 10%-15% because plastic parts can't tolerate it. :sad:  It doesn't make sense that you would get better MPG's with Ethanol gas with less BTU's unless you had higher Octane. :headscratch: I get the best MPG's with Pure Gas with high Octane (93).

 

Paul

 

Paul