How long did your original C-max battery last?

[homestead]

How long in years did your original C-max 12 v battery last?

 

Mine is 4.5 yrs old still original.  Don't forget to vote in the poll.

Edited August 22, 2017 by homestead

[plus 3 golfer]

2 1/2 years in Phoeniz, AZ.   Very hot weather "kills" car batteries.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[JAZ]

As mentioned in another post, I wasn't interested in experiencing the 'adventure' of being stranded with a dead battery, so I replaced mine after 4 1/3 years, though there was no indication of imminent failure.  I garage it almost always and occasionally hooked it up to a charger during winter months.

[jestevens]

Still on the original 12V - I had a 2006 HHR that had similar setup with 12V in the trunk and I never replaced that battery either at least 5 years and the battery test kept coming back good. 

 

I did replace the 12V battery on my Prius, boy that was fun disassembling all of the HV battery pack ductwork, moving the brake controller, trying hard not to drop the bolts down into the frame, telling some guy in the parking lot of the auto parts store at 9PM that, no I really didn't want to buy his rims, it also would have helped if they gave me the right size battery at the store to start with. 

 

On the plus side I learned that there was good acoustic insulation in the trunk, when my head was in there all I could hear of the guy was the sound that the teacher from "Peanuts" used to make.  Shame he tried to carry on a conversation for 20 minutes while my head was stuck in the trunk. ("Waa-Wuun-Whhaa--Whha-Nooo?"  "What?!  I can't hear anything!")

 

So in all I think the trunk is a great place for 12V battery.  You also know to look for a new mechanic when they are stumped that there's no battery under the hood.

Edited August 22, 2017 by jestevens

[plus 3 golfer]

I forgot to mention that the poll is somewhat useless without the climate conditions.  High ambient temperature shortens battery life and cooler ambient temperature extends battery life.

 

[obob]

My original battery died in 5-6 months from the 2013 dead battery mystery plague before Ford put in the low voltage cut off draining cludge.  Ford replaced it.  I carry a battery jumper thing so I am not so concerned about when it dies, though I don't think I will want to go beyond 6 years.

[homestead]

I forgot to mention that the poll is somewhat useless without the climate conditions.  High ambient temperature shortens battery life and cooler ambient temperature extends battery life.

 

 

Notice battery life starts going down slightly lower in extreme cold. 

According to that chart my battery is due to die any day now.

[plus 3 golfer]

Notice battery life starts going down slightly lower in extreme cold. 

According to that chart my battery is due to die any day now.

You might want to replace it as with the C-Max there is virtually no warning like slow cranking in a conventional car that indicates a dying battery.  In the C-Max if battery voltage is sufficient to operate the control modules, the car starts. There is no starter motor for the 12 V battery to turn.  When my C-Max wouldn't start in my garage on two consecutive days (without jump starting), I had the battery replaced by the dealer.  

 

Your battery might last another 6 months, 1 year or 1 day. :)​  As a hedge against the inconvenience of a no start, I carry a set of jumper cables in the storage compartment under the driver's seat. Others carry a small "jump start" battery.  Of course most will likely roll the dice and hope the battery no start condition is at home. 

 

Yes, the expected life goes slightly down in extreme cold because the CCA declines with cold temperatures.  There's a point reached when the declining battery capacity as a battery ages (is cycled) can not produce enough CCA in extreme cold to turn the starter.

 

"Heat is a killer of all batteries, but high temperatures cannot always be avoided. This is the case with a battery inside a laptop, a starter battery under the hood of a car and stationary batteries in a tin shelter under the hot sun. As a guideline, each 8°C (15°F) rise in temperature cuts the life of a sealed lead acid battery in half. This means that a VRLA battery for stationary applications specified to last for 10 years at 25°C (77°F) would only live 5 years if continuously exposed to 33°C (92°F) and 30 months if kept at a constant desert temperature of 41°C (106°F). Once the battery is damaged by heat, the capacity cannot be restored."  - http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_heat_and_harsh_loading_reduces_battery_life

Edited August 22, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[obob]

I question whether we have the best battery in there.  

 

My Logic:

 

We don't need Cold Cranking Amps CCA for the high voltage battery starts the car.  I wonder if a 12 volt wheel chair battery would be better.  To get a lot of CCA the plates need to be thinner which have a short life.  Though Ford makes more money when the batteries go bad sooner.

Edited August 22, 2017 by obob

[plus 3 golfer]

I question whether we have the best battery in there.  

 

My Logic:

 

We don't need Cold Cranking Amps CCA for the high voltage battery starts the car.  I wonder if a 12 volt wheel chair battery would be better.  To get a lot of CCA the plates need to be thinner which have a short life.  Though Ford makes more money when the batteries go bad sooner.

Our battery has very low CCA and very low reserve capacity compared to most car batteries.  A bigger battery would certainly allow for more reserve capacity if there is a battery drain (headlights left on and so forth).  And a deep cycle battery would allow a greater depth of discharge cycles before failing.  But all lead acid batteries will fail.  Perhaps a battery like the Optima would last longer but it likely costs 2X as much and Optima doesn't make one for the C-Max.

 

Also, one has to remember that the C-Max has metering on the 12 V battery (coulomb counting).  "State-of-charge (SOC) estimation is one of the most important issues in battery applications. ... Among which, accumulation of the currents flowing into and out from a battery is one of the common indicators that used to estimate battery SOC, namely coulomb counting method or ampere-hour counting method."  

 

I don't know what algorithms might be affected by using a different battery in the C-Max.  I believe the DC/DC converter adjusts the charging current and voltage based on SOC of the 12 V battery.  It may be as simple as adjusting the AH rating in the algorithms for the installed battery with a Ford Scan Tool.  The life of the 12 V battery should be extended by applying the appropriate charge to the 12 V battery, 

[raadsel]

You might want to replace it as with the C-Max there is virtually no warning like slow cranking in a conventional car that indicates a dying battery.  In the C-Max if battery voltage is sufficient to operate the control modules, the car starts. There is no starter motor for the 12 V battery to turn.  When my C-Max wouldn't start in my garage on two consecutive days (without jump starting), I had the battery replaced by the dealer.  

 

Your battery might last another 6 months, 1 year or 1 day. :)​  As a hedge against the inconvenience of a no start, I carry a set of jumper cables in the storage compartment under the driver's seat. Others carry a small "jump start" battery.  Of course most will likely roll the dice and hope the battery no start condition is at home. 

 

Yes, the expected life goes slightly down in extreme cold because the CCA declines with cold temperatures.  There's a point reached when the declining battery capacity as a battery ages (is cycled) can not produce enough CCA in extreme cold to turn the starter.

 

"Heat is a killer of all batteries, but high temperatures cannot always be avoided. This is the case with a battery inside a laptop, a starter battery under the hood of a car and stationary batteries in a tin shelter under the hot sun. As a guideline, each 8°C (15°F) rise in temperature cuts the life of a sealed lead acid battery in half. This means that a VRLA battery for stationary applications specified to last for 10 years at 25°C (77°F) would only live 5 years if continuously exposed to 33°C (92°F) and 30 months if kept at a constant desert temperature of 41°C (106°F). Once the battery is damaged by heat, the capacity cannot be restored."  - http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_heat_and_harsh_loading_reduces_battery_life

 

I'm not sure it gives no warning though I think the signs are different. In my case, I have noticed that my radio doesn't stay on as long once I turn the car off, and that it acts differently than it used to when I open the door in the morning. Before, the dashboard displays used to light and it would show the odometer. Now it seems that only the circular area of the Speedometer is lighting, it is no longer showing the odometer. I suspect this is meaning that I will need to replace the battery soon, that it is quickly starting to lose the necessary capacity.

[plus 3 golfer]

I believe many of experienced what you 

 

I'm not sure it gives no warning though I think the signs are different. In my case, I have noticed that my radio doesn't stay on as long once I turn the car off, and that it acts differently than it used to when I open the door in the morning. Before, the dashboard displays used to light and it would show the odometer. Now it seems that only the circular area of the Speedometer is lighting, it is no longer showing the odometer. I suspect this is meaning that I will need to replace the battery soon, that it is quickly starting to lose the necessary capacity.

I began experiencing similar about 2 years ago.  I believe it was due to 15b04 CSP - Diagnose and Charge Battery.   The following modules were reprogrammed as part of 15b04:

• Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) converter
• Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC)
• Gateway Module (GWM)
• Front Control / Display Interface Module (FCDIM), if equipped

After I got that update on 6/10/2015, I began noticing similar changes which I attributed to the update. My battery was replaced on 7/18/2015 and the changes noted still were occuring. I never did time how long the center display stays on before one gets the System shutting down message.  Ford possibly changed the programming to do different things once the car is shut down based on the SOC of the 12 V battery like how long the radio / center display stays on.  

 

It would be easy for Ford to tell us what the SOC of the 12 V battery currently is (in Ah) vs the Ah of a new battery.  That would certainly help in deciding when to replace the battery.  I'll have to look at DC/DC module with ForScan to see if there is anything on the SOC and so forth on the 12 V battery.

[obob]

Our battery has very low CCA and very low reserve capacity compared to most car batteries.  A bigger battery would certainly allow for more reserve capacity if there is a battery drain (headlights left on and so forth).  And a deep cycle battery would allow a greater depth of discharge cycles before failing.  But all lead acid batteries will fail.  Perhaps a battery like the Optima would last longer but it likely costs 2X as much and Optima doesn't make one for the C-Max.

 

Also, one has to remember that the C-Max has metering on the 12 V battery (coulomb counting).  "State-of-charge (SOC) estimation is one of the most important issues in battery applications. ... Among which, accumulation of the currents flowing into and out from a battery is one of the common indicators that used to estimate battery SOC, namely coulomb counting method or ampere-hour counting method."  

 

I don't know what algorithms might be affected by using a different battery in the C-Max.  I believe the DC/DC converter adjusts the charging current and voltage based on SOC of the 12 V battery.  It may be as simple as adjusting the AH rating in the algorithms for the installed battery with a Ford Scan Tool.  The life of the 12 V battery should be extended by applying the appropriate charge to the 12 V battery, 

 

So what I get out of this is that putting in a different type of battery could have not so good side effects.  Thanks.

 

The C-Max battery (BXT-67R) from what I saw on my battery still has 390 CCA.   It is a battery designed to turn a starter or perhaps dual-purpose.  I have a small lawn tractor battery that has 190/160 CCA. (32/0 degrees).   If the C-Max never needs more than say 35 Amps a deep cycle battery might be a better choice with respect to longevity.  

 

Based on "A deep-cycle battery has the ability to be deeply discharged and charged many times during its service life. ... An automotive or starting battery is designed for brief bursts of high current and cannot withstand more than a few deep discharges before failure." ... "in most cases a deep-cycle battery is still more than adequate for the purpose of starting an engine." 

http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Support/FAQ/BatterySelection.aspx

 

Though it may not be worth risking side-effects to find out. (after letting the information sink in, and reading Plus2Golfer's Post #15, there is no way I am going to be playing around with installing deep cycle battery.)

Edited August 23, 2017 by obob

[cr08]

I used to lurk some of the BMW forums and similarly they've done some battery monitoring and operated various modules when the vehicle was 'shut down' based on battery age and SOC. They did have some programming to indicate to the vehicle what size of battery was installed and would need to reset the monitor when replacing it. Boils down to that as the battery aged and SOC drops, various unessential modules would go to sleep much earlier after the car was shut off.

 

Goes without saying I'm assuming the same or similar behavior comes into play with our C-Max's. With that said, haven't seen it brought up with any late model Ford's being able to modify the battery size in programming without a legit IDS.

[plus 3 golfer]

Yes, the monitoring of the C-Max 12 V battery needs reset when a new battery is installed.  I posted the following before from the service manual:

 

"The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition and the state of charge of the 12V battery and provides the BCM with this information. The BatteryMonitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced. 

 

It is urgently recommended that the replacement battery has the exact same specification as the original battery. If it does not, the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor outputs will be compromised.

 

The Battery Monitoring Sensor is clamped directly to the negative terminal of the battery and grounds to the vehicle at the chassis ground connection point through the negative battery cable and eyelet. It is part of the negative battery cable and cannot be serviced separately.

 

External customer loads must only be connected to the vehicle at the customer battery connection point. If an external customer load is connected at the negative battery post, the Battery Monitoring Sensor accuracy cannot be guaranteed. It is recommended that the Battery Monitoring Sensor pole clamp is not removed unless a batteryreplacement is required.

 

Should the battery need to be isolated, this should be done by disconnecting the ground eyelet at the chassis ground.

 

Body Control Module (BCM)

The BCM monitors the Battery Monitoring Sensor and provides the PCM with battery state of charge information." 

[homestead]

 

Yes, the monitoring of the C-Max 12 V battery needs reset when a new battery is installed.  I posted the following before from the service manual:

 

"The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition and the state of charge of the 12V battery and provides the BCM with this information. The BatteryMonitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced. 

 

Does the Service Manual say the C-max will reset itself if it left undisturbed for 8 hours?

I see that for other Ford models?

[plus 3 golfer]

Does the Service Manual say the C-max will reset itself if it left undisturbed for 8 hours?

I see that for other Ford models?

I haven't seen it in the manual.  

 

If I understand correctly, what is being reset is the loss of 12 V battery capacity over time. So, the algorithm could monitor voltage vs time.  There will always be up to about 50 mA draw when undisturbed (car off).  The algorithm after 8 hours would check that discharge curve against the discharge curve of a new battery (hence the reason for a new battery being the same Ah capacity as the old).  If the curves "match" (battery voltage essentially the same after 8 hours), one could assume that the battery was replaced and reset the battery loss.  Seems to make sense although I'm not a battery expert. :)

[ptjones]

It seems to me I lost my radio and NAV settings when 12v died after 4.5 yrs/ 140k miles approx.  You can connect up to 12v jumper posts under the hood to keep from losing settings when replacing the 12v batt. :)  I wasn't able to find another replacement battery other than FORD.

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

I looked at the BCM data related to the 12 V Battery.  The attachment shows the data.  What is bothersome is that my battery age is shown as 1708 days or basically the same age as the car even though the battery was replaced about 2 years ago.  Secondly, the SOC shows at 32%.  I searched and found on the fusion hybrid forum a pic showing 98% SOC, IIRC.  When I first started watching this display, the SOC was 20% climbing to 32% after about 75 minutes of driving.  The charge current shown was around 1.8 A at 20% SOC and the desired charge voltage was at 14.4 V.   As the SOC increased to 32%, the current decreased to about 0.75 A.  The desired voltage declined to 14.2 V.

 

It certainly looks like my battery monitor was not reset when my battery was replaced.  The reason for the 20% SOC might be that in the last week we didn't make any long trips.  We will traveling over labor day quite a distance so I'll monitor this data.

 

It would be great if others with ForScan can check their battery data.

 

I forgot to mention that I used my Android smartphone and then a Beta version of ForScan for Windows to watch the data.  I noted in the Beta version that it has several service procedures listed including Resetting the Battery Monitor and PATS programming of additional keys.  I don't believe these are working in the Beta version as nothing happened when I selected the Battery Reset.   

 

I measured the SOC this morning and it was 47%.  Battery voltage was 12.34 V.  So, the numbers are virtually the same as indicated in the graph below.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[homestead]

Since your battery is two years old and batteries don't last long in AZ maybe it's ok that

the car thinks it is 4.6 yrs old.  Also looks like yours didn't reset itself after sitting overnight when the

battery was replaced.

I measured the voltage at the battery of of my car this morning

and it read 11.91v.  I drove it on two 45 min trips yesterday.  My battery is 4.5 yrs old.

Edited August 24, 2017 by homestead

[SnowStorm]

+3,  I just checked mine and its age says 440.  It was replaced about 15 months ago by the dealer under the "big fix" for dead batteries.  I had just started the car and due to low HVB it had just finished running for a few minutes.  It was driven about an hour yesterday and about 10 hours on Tuesday.  Just now it was showing 2.0 amps and 76% SOC.  Voltage at front posts is 14.49 (car still ON) and 12.77 (car just turned OFF) and dropping slowly.  I'm heading out for some hours of driving so will see if SOC goes up.

[plus 3 golfer]

Thanks, your data is what I was afraid of.  I just checked mine.  The car was driven less than 10 miles by my wife (2 trips) and then left off for about 2 hours.   From now on, I'm going to measure the actual voltage using the BCM data point. It should be slightly higher than the posts under the hood. So, early this morning before any trips, SOC read 48% and battery voltage under hood was 12.34 V.  So, about 1 pm today, I measured the following in the BCM.

 

Car put in ACC Mode:and Car is charging slightly

V=12.90; I= +1.12 A; SOC=24%

 

Car then turned on and after 2 minutes of charging:

V=14.3; I = +13.06 A; SOC=26% (both volts and current were falling with time. I saw 14.5 volts for several seconds.)

 

Car turned off and battery began discharging:

V=13.4; I = - 1X.XX and falling quickly to state below

 

Car Off after about 2- 3 minutes of discharging:

V=12.65; I= - 5.44 A; SOC=26% 

 

Car Off (ForScan won't connect) about 5+ minutes

V=12.35 at battery posts under hood since I can't measure BCM

 

It will be interesting to see how high the SOC will get in our batteries.  I have a feeling that because my battery age is thought to be so high that the algorithms are adjusting the charging voltage / current assuming my capacity is a lot less than it actually is.  I need to continue to monitor and think about this and perhaps record the data.  I'm beginning to believe that since my actual losses with the 2+ year old battery is significatly less than the accumulated losses after 1708 days used to establish charging parameters, my battery is being consistanly under charged.  In other words, the algorithm believes that a SOC near say between 24% - 50% represents a "good" charge on a 1708 day old battery service.   But my battery is less than 800 days old.  

 

So, the issue I have is how can I get Ford to make any adjustments??? and at no cost to me??? - probably won't ever happen. Second, even when ForScan is done Beta testing their Windows version and makes the version final, I likely will be able to reset the battery monitor as Ford could do.  The reset will likely not work since the losses will likely be zeroed out and coulomb counting will start over.

 

Either way my battery will likely fail sooner than it should -- undercharging as I suspect currently or likely overcharge if I reset the battery monitor. :ford:  :mademyday:  

[homestead]

Here is text from a 2013 F150 manual that doesn't show up in the c-max manual.

 

After battery replacement,
or in some cases after charging the battery with the external charger,
the BMS requires eight hours of vehicle sleep time (key off with doors
closed) to relearn the new battery state of charge. Prior to relearning the
state of charge, the BMS may disable electrical features (to protect the
battery) earlier than normal.

[obob]

Maybe this article will help the discussion.

 

My take is that this is what was needed to be done when the C-Max's were getting the battery discharge events.  It may not all be necessary.

 

This was seems of special interest.

 

"Using Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS) service tool, perform the battery monitoring system (BMS) reset after the new battery is connected. "

 

https://ford.oemdtc.com/988/discharged-12-volt-battery-2013-2014-ford-c-max

 

I would not be surprised if the dealers just know it is OK to just put the battery in and forget the other stuff.  Otherwise installing a battery would cost way more.

Edited August 25, 2017 by obob

[SnowStorm]

OK, finished a 4+ hour trip and here is what I got (initial data repeated from above post).  Temperature below is the battery temp; ambient was around 80F.

 

Before trip but after car had charged HVB for several minutes (and so, had been charging 12V battery as well):

I=2.0 A,   SOC=76%,  T=???,  BAT_V_DSB=???   V=14.49 (front posts car ON), V=12.77 (front posts car OFF)

 

After driving about 1.5 hours:

I=0.5 A,   SOC=80%,  T=88F,  BAT_V_DSB=14.40   V=14.37 (front posts car ON), V=12.79 to 12.94 (front posts car OFF)

 

After total driving of about 4.75 hours:

I=0.25 A,   SOC=84%,  T=93F,  BAT_V_DSB=14.20   V=14.18 (front posts car ON), V=12.7x (front posts car OFF)

 

Note: voltage at front posts after car is turned OFF bounce around as things turn OFF (or ON?)

 

I remember watching the battery charge current some years back and noting that it takes hours for it to drop close to zero.