How long did your original C-max battery last?

[plus 3 golfer]

I'll bet the 0.25 A is close to the trickle charge rate.  "Trickle charging means charging a fully charged battery under no-load at a rate equal to its self-discharge rate, thus enabling the battery to remain at its fully charged level."   So, I would think that your battery could be down as much as 16% capacity from new in the 440 days.  

 

Last evening I spent about 30 - 40 minutes in the garage with the car on setting my tire pressure to around 45 psi for our trip next week and monitoring the battery stuff. During that time SOC increased from about 32 % to IIRC around 45%. I did see a very low charge rate at the end but I can't recall whether it was down to 0.25 A. I'm thinking it was down to about 0.45 A at 45% SOC. So, I'll bet that my maximum SOC will show around 50% based on accumulating 1708 days of losses. 

 

The question is what effect are these bogus losses having on the life of my battery.  I don't ever remember seeing 12.7 V on the front posts even pre the battery CSP when charging voltage was set IIRC about 14 V.

 

Here is text from a 2013 F150 manual that doesn't show up in the c-max manual.

 

After battery replacement,
or in some cases after charging the battery with the external charger,
the BMS requires eight hours of vehicle sleep time (key off with doors
closed) to relearn the new battery state of charge. Prior to relearning the
state of charge, the BMS may disable electrical features (to protect the
battery) earlier than normal.

I looked again and I can't find anything about relearning SOC after 8 hours in the service manual.  Is there a BMS reset service procedure in the F150?  Does the manual require a replacement battery to have the same capacity as the original battery like the C-Max so that the BMS works correctily?  I'll bet the BMS is different since we have a DC/DC converter.

 

The BMS (SOC) in the C-Max is also used for triggering load shedding.  Perhaps this is why post battery CSP the time of APIM system shutting down is shorter.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[homestead]

I looked again and I can't find anything about relearning SOC after 8 hours in the service manual.  Is there a BMS reset service procedure in the F150?  Does the manual require a replacement battery to have the same capacity as the original battery like the C-Max so that the BMS works correctily?  I'll bet the BMS is different since we have a DC/DC converter.

 

The BMS (SOC) in the C-Max is also used for triggering load shedding.  Perhaps this is why post battery CSP the time of APIM system shutting down is shorter.

 

Here is the entire text below on the 2013 F150 manual for  BMS page 336  ...  

 

Battery Management System (If Equipped)

The battery management system (BMS) monitors battery conditions and takes actions to extend battery life. If excessive battery drain is detected, the system may temporarily disable certain electrical features to protect the battery. Those electrical accessories affected include the rear defrost, heated/cooled seats, climate control fan, heated steering wheel, audio and navigation system. A message may be shown in the information displays to alert the driver that battery protection actions are active. These messages are only for notification that an action is taking place, and not intended to indicate an electrical problem or that the battery requires replacement.

Electrical accessory installation

To ensure proper operation of the BMS, any electrical devices that are added to the vehicle should not have their ground connection made directly at the negative battery post. A connection at the negative battery post can cause inaccurate measurements of the battery condition and potential incorrect system operation.

Note: Electrical or electronic accessories added to the vehicle by the dealer or the owner may adversely affect battery performance and durability, and may also affect the performance of other electrical systems in the vehicle.

When a battery replacement is required, the battery should only be replaced with a Ford recommended replacement battery which matches the electrical requirements of the vehicle. After battery replacement,

or in some cases after charging the battery with the external charger,

the BMS requires eight hours of vehicle sleep time (key off with doors closed) to relearn the new battery state of charge. Prior to relearning the state of charge, the BMS may disable electrical features (to protect the battery) earlier than normal.

[homestead]

Went down to my local Ford dealer today with the $99 ford coupon for a new battery.

They told me that coupon is for a "Plus" battery and they don't have a Plus battery

for the C-max even though the coupon list C-max Hybrid and Energi on the coupon.

So will look around some more and see what I can find.

[raadsel]

Went down to my local Ford dealer today with the $99 ford coupon for a new battery.

They told me that coupon is for a "Plus" battery and they don't have a Plus battery

for the C-max even though the coupon list C-max Hybrid and Energi on the coupon.

So will look around some more and see what I can find.

 

I think I'd try a different Ford dealer, maybe change where I get my C-Max worked on.

 

I ordered a Lithium jump starter, since I question how much longer my battery will last. Amazon claims it will be delivered today, and I hope it is, but with the weather I have my doubts.

Edited August 25, 2017 by raadsel

[ptjones]

Well I didn't do what the OM says to do when replacing the 12 v battery and I didn't have any problems. I'm not sure, but I may have used jumper batt. when replacing the battery. I had a jumper battery in the garage and I knew I would lose my setting if I disconnected the 12 v batt. so I'm thinking I did. In that case I wouldn't have to do anything. :)

[homestead]

I called Autozone they have a 2yr battery for c-max for $119.

O'Reilly's wanted $142

 

So went to another Ford dealer they had the same sad story why they couldn't honor

the $99 coupon for the C-max but the guy said he would sell me the better battery

for $119 and they would install it for free.  So had them do it.

Also asked them to jump the car from the hood while they installed it so it wouldn't lose presets.(that worked!)

I actually helped the guy install the new battery so the positive terminal wouldn't short out.

The tool for resetting the battery management was out on a extended drive for troubleshooting

another customer so I can take it back in tomorrow and get it reset.

[ptjones]

It will be interesting to see if that changes anything. :)

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

My wife had run many errands yesterday morning putting about 6 miles on car with several  stops.  I got home from golf around 1 PM.  About 2 PM we went out and I connected my smartphone to monitor battery data.  SOC = 0 % ?  If it were a real gauge, I'd be banging on it to see if it were broken.  Charging voltage = 14.5 V falling to 14.35 V for the rest of the 6 mile round trip with 2 stops.  SOC remained at 0%.

 

This morning my readings are SOC=0% and Voltage under hood =  12.02 V.  Obviously, SOC is not zero as the car started.  At 12.02 V  SOC should be around 20  %.  I got the following readings in ACC and On Mode.

 

ACC Mode V= 12.9 V , I = 1.12 A charging

On Mode V= 14.8 V falling quickly to 14.6 V with I = 12.5 A charging.

 

Several likely hypotheses are: 1) my SOC is not zero as the car started, 2)  the 8 hour F150 algorithm doesn't apply or calculates SOC incorrectly, 3) the algorithm uses the accumulated losses to determine how much charge to apply to the battery and thus undercharges my battery 4) my battery needs replaced (still under the 36 month free replacement) as it does not hold charge.

 

Monday I'm going to the local Ford dealer and discuss this with the SA and see if they will test the battery for free.  I was told prior when my previous battery died that for Ford to replace a battery under warranty they must charge it for several hours to insure it is bad. 

[homestead]

Update:  Battery was replaced yesterday.  Car sat overnight and went back to the dealer to get the battery management system reset.

When I turned off the car at the dealer I timed the time until the radio shuts off.  2 min 10 sec.

They reset the BMS and the guy says they are supposed to reset all cars after battery change.

Drove home 2 miles turned off the car and timed the time until the radio shuts off.  10 min 0s exactly

 

My conclusions , the cmax does not have the ability to auto reset itself overnight and the short turn off time was due to the age of the battery.

 

I doubt they would have asked me to come back the next day if I hadn't asked for the BMS reset on the front end.

Edited August 26, 2017 by homestead

[plus 3 golfer]

Update:  Battery was replaced yesterday.  Car sat overnight and went back to the dealer to get the battery management system reset.

When I turned off the car at the dealer I timed the time until the radio shuts off.  2 min 10 sec.

They reset the BMS and the guy says they are supposed to reset all cars after battery change.

Drove home 2 miles turned off the car and timed the time until the radio shuts off.  10 min 0s exactly

 

My conclusions , the cmax does not have the ability to auto reset itself overnight and the short turn off time was due to the age of the battery.

 

I doubt they would have asked me to come back the next day if I hadn't asked for the BMS reset on the front end.

Agree.  

 

My APIM now shuts down very quickly in a minute or so with SOC = 0%.  

 

Just got back from a 54 mile round trip (about 37 minutes one way).  SOC started out showing zero.  Charge current was about 1.88 A and V = 14.5.  After about one hour of driving SOC finally showed 1% on the way home.  After another 8 minutes SOC = 2% until I arrived home in about 6 minutes.  Charge current the last 15 minutes was 0.88 and Voltage = 14.3 V.

 

Again, I believe my incorrect Battery Age of now 1711 days is affecting my charging (or my battery is bad).  So, my recommendation is when one replaces their battery, have it replaced by a Ford dealer and make sure they run the Battery Monitor System reset.  

[ptjones]

I guess this means we can't do it ourselves.  :sad:  I checked my 12 v batt. SOC at lighter plug at 12.5v with car off and 14.4 v with ignition on.  Turning the car off the radio lasted 2 min. 30 sec.

 

Paul

[Noah Harbinger]

Just to respond to the original comment: I'm a hair over 4 years since purchase and I am still on the original battery. I've been meaning to do some measurements as it is getting up in age and there's no point in waiting for surprises.

[joe]

I've got more than 50 years experience in owning cars.  I found that car batteries die around the 5th year.  So, I had Ford replace my 2013 C-Max 12v battery earlier this year.  I also carry a jump-start lithium battery (bought at Costco) as an additional precaution.

 

What I would like to know, is there a test to determine the condition of the C-Max lithium batteries?

[SnowStorm]

What I would like to know, is there a test to determine the condition of the C-Max lithium batteries?

Read this topic for some ideas and further discussion.  I guess its time for me to get some new data to compare with the old baseline.

[raadsel]

I thought my battery had died this morning. Keep in mind I am in Houston and this all occurred in the rain. I went out to my car, put my hand on the handle and nothing happened. I pulled my key fob out and pressed the button, still nothing. At this point, I'm thinking the battery is dead. I pull out the physical key but can't get it to turn enough to unlock the car -- it is hard to get leverage on that short key head. I'm guessing it needs some WD-40.

 

I go back inside and grab the other key fob, thinking maybe the physical key in this fob will work better in the lock. I go out, and the car opens right up. Apparently between last night and this morning the battery in my key fob died. Annoying, but very glad I don't need to replace a battery when there is very little open, not to mention not having mail or other types of delivery.

[homestead]

Glad you got it running.  The C-max is kind of low to the ground are there lots of places

you can go in Houston that aren't flooded? 

[raadsel]

Glad you got it running.  The C-max is kind of low to the ground are there lots of places

you can go in Houston that aren't flooded? 

 

I haven't tried to go terribly far (a couple of miles) but I'm in an area that, luckily, had minimal flooding. But definitely many of the freeways are flooded, and it is virtually impossible to make it across the city in a C-Max (or any car).

[SnowStorm]

More battery data.  Just finished another 5 hour trip with car on the whole time.  Checked the values and got:

 

I=0.25 A,   SOC=72%,  T=82F,  BAT_V_DSB=14.40   V=14.38 (front posts car ON), V=12.39 (front posts car OFF)

 

Ambient temp on dash was 62F.  So, compared to last run battery is 11F cooler, volts 0.2 higher and SOC 12% less.  I wonder if the SOC number is really all that accurate.

[Bill-N]

I thought my battery had died this morning. Keep in mind I am in Houston and this all occurred in the rain. I went out to my car, put my hand on the handle and nothing happened. I pulled my key fob out and pressed the button, still nothing. At this point, I'm thinking the battery is dead. I pull out the physical key but can't get it to turn enough to unlock the car -- it is hard to get leverage on that short key head. I'm guessing it needs some WD-40.

 

I go back inside and grab the other key fob, thinking maybe the physical key in this fob will work better in the lock. I go out, and the car opens right up. Apparently between last night and this morning the battery in my key fob died. Annoying, but very glad I don't need to replace a battery when there is very little open, not to mention not having mail or other types of delivery.

 

I've had a similar experience and also wondered about 12V health.  I think I'll have the 12V battery replaced before winter sets in.

 

Also, fwiw, I think there's an illustration in the owners manual that show how to use the fob as a handle for the physical key and thus gain some leverage.  But point taken re WD-40;  I'll oil the locks soon.  A dead battery would be bad enough without the added grief of a key broken off in the lock.

 

Hope you and yours stay dry and safe.

[Louder North]

I've had a similar experience and also wondered about 12V health.  I think I'll have the 12V battery replaced before winter sets in.

 

Also, fwiw, I think there's an illustration in the owners manual that show how to use the fob as a handle for the physical key and thus gain some leverage.  But point taken re WD-40;  I'll oil the locks soon.  A dead battery would be bad enough without the added grief of a key broken off in the lock.

 

Hope you and yours stay dry and safe.

When you remove the key from it's hiding place in the fob, there is a little slot in the fob cavity that fits the tab at the end of the physical key - you can use that to make it easier to turn the key.

[plus 3 golfer]

More battery data.  Just finished another 5 hour trip with car on the whole time.  Checked the values and got:

 

I=0.25 A,   SOC=72%,  T=82F,  BAT_V_DSB=14.40   V=14.38 (front posts car ON), V=12.39 (front posts car OFF)

 

Ambient temp on dash was 62F.  So, compared to last run battery is 11F cooler, volts 0.2 higher and SOC 12% less.  I wonder if the SOC number is really all that accurate.

For comparison: SOC = 92%, I = 0.12 A,  V_DSB = 14.4V, V at BCM = 14.35 (car on),  V at BCM = 12.90 V (car off). What was your SOC when starting trip? And it only took 3 days of driving: 1916 miles 28 hours and 16 minutes to reach 92% from a starting SOC of 3%.   :)

 

IMO, the algorithm is acting like a 3 stage battery charger (initial faster charging state, slow charge state, and float charge state).  For the first 4 hours of operations, current averaged around 0.75 A and SOC went from 3% to about 50%.  During the next 8 hours, current averaged about 0.5 A and SOC went up to 80%.  During the last 16 hours , current averaged about 0.19 A and state of charge ended at 92 %.  From about 88% SOC, current was running about 0.12 A with 0.06 showing up sometimes.  There was no abrupt change in current just a slow drop - slower charge rate as SOC increased.

 

This still begs  the question though.  What does age of battery have to do with the charging scheme if anything?  After 3 days of many short trips (2-4 miles each), the SOC is now at 32% and falling.  It appears to me that the algorithm is not adequately applying a proper charging scheme.  It's as if the algorithm believes the battery capacity is less than it actually is and hence reduces charging currently too quickly.  IMO, this could happen if the age of the battery was not reset.

 

 "coulomb counting works well, especially with Li-ion that offer high coulombinc efficiency and low self-discharge. Improvements have been made by also taking aging and temperature-based self-discharge into consideration but periodic calibration is still recommended to bring the “digital battery” in harmony with the “chemical battery." - Batttery University

Edited September 9, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[homestead]

That sounds like a normal battery charging scheme where its charged and just takes less current as the battery gets fully charged.

Perhaps the battery age tracking in the car is just for discharge time with the car turned off.

[SnowStorm]

... What was your SOC when starting trip?

Sorry, didn't check SOC at beginning of trip.

[ptjones]

I talked to my dealer and they didn't know thing about resetting the battery module. He suggested disconnecting the battery and see what happens. :headscratch: Maybe it will think it has a new battery.

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

I just found this in the 2014 Service Manual with respect to the System off to Save Battery message while browsing for something else:

 

"The BCM uses the battery current sensor to monitor the battery state of charge. The battery current sensor is attached to the battery ground cable. With the vehicle OFF and the ignition in ACC or ON, a load shed message is sent over the CAN when the BCM determines that the battery state of charge is below 40%, 45 minutes have elapsed, or 10% of the charge has been drained. This message turns off the audio system to save the remaining battery charge. Under this condition, SYS OFF TO SAVE BATT is displayed on the centerstack infotainment display to notify the driver that battery protection actions are active. To clear the load shed state, start the vehicle." 

 

This may be why I would get the message within a few minute or so a lot of the time since my SOC was usually well under 40% with many short trips over a week or so.  I just checked and my SOC is just under 38% with car turned off but radio system still on.  The message appreared after about 2 1/2 minutes and the audio shut off. There's likely a time delay before the message is sent for the under 40% criterion.  It's also possible that Ford may have changed the criteria for when to shut down to save the battery in later MY cars.  In any event, one might want to make sure that the dealer does the battery reset when installing a new battery as the SOC will likely not be correct for the new battery unless the reset is performed.

 

I will do some more monitoring especially when the SOC is higher than 40%.