Battery usage?

[Diversion]

Is the “Other” power feed always supposed to be on? Does it ever turn off? Picture attached.. trying to figure out why my gas mileage has been poor ..

[plus 3 golfer]

"Other" power flow is 12V power for seat heaters, radio, lights, control modules, wipers, and the like that flows from the High Voltage Battery through the DC/DC converter to the 12 V system.  There is no alternator like in a non-hybrid.  The DC/DC converter replaces the alternator. So, there will always be "Other" power flow.  

 

Give us more info on your mpg and why you think it is low.  

Edited August 21, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Diversion]

"Other" power flow is 12V power for seat heaters, radio, lights, control modules, wipers, and the like that flows from the High Voltage Battery through the DC/DC converter to the 12 V system.  There is no alternator like in a non-hybrid.  The DC/DC converter replaces the alternator.

 

Give us more info on your mpg and why you think it is low.  

 

 

 

 

Got it..   So the "Other" power feed is always on?    Just wanted to make sure i don't have anything sucking juice off the battery..    Well I bought the car used at 73k..    Early on I noticed that when I'm on the highway MPG would be poor until the battery charged up almost to the top and then it seemed like the car goes into a lean burn mode and I'd get about 40-44mpg..   Now the best it's getting under the same conditions is about 36-38 on the highway..  Can't get the meter to pass the 40mpg anymore..   Same tires, checked pressure, etc..  nothing new, nothing different.   The battery now stops charging itself on the highway, it will actually use a down arrow while cruising and just cycle the battery up and down on the charge but it doesn't get high enough to get back into that lean burn or whatever it's doing.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Diversion

[plus 3 golfer]

The "lean burn" mode is likely negative split mode operation where the SOC of the HVB is high (around 2/3 - 3/4 full when looking at the battery symbol), cruising on relatively flat ground at moderate speeds (50 - 70 mph).  By backing off the throttle ever so slightly (or going down a very slight downgrade), torque demand drops slightly.  The power control algorithms can then reduce ICE rpm by spinning the generator in the opposite direction thereby maintaining rpm to the final drive and thus mph.  The traction motor will be used to make up slight differences in torque requirements (either + or -).  The effect on ICE is that it is now operating on a more efficient point on the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption map.

 

Operating in negative split mode was easier to do prior to the Ford changing the maximum EV speed from 62? mph to 85 mph.  Now, backing off the throttle slightly generally kicks in EV mode.  In addition, Ford may have  tweaked the algorithms in later revisions.   Negative split is not the preferred mode and is used when ICE must be on.  The preferred modes are EV and positive split mode (ICE on, generator charging, traction motor assisting ICE propel car).

[Diversion]

The "lean burn" mode is likely negative split mode operation where the SOC of the HVB is high (around 2/3 - 3/4 full when looking at the battery symbol), cruising on relatively flat ground at moderate speeds (50 - 70 mph).  By backing off the throttle ever so slightly (or going down a very slight downgrade), torque demand drops slightly.  The power control algorithms can then reduce ICE rpm by spinning the generator in the opposite direction thereby maintaining rpm to the final drive and thus mph.  The traction motor will be used to make up slight differences in torque requirements (either + or -).  The effect on ICE is that it is now operating on a more efficient point on the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption map.

 

Operating in negative split mode was easier to do prior to the Ford changing the maximum EV speed from 62? mph to 85 mph.  Now, backing off the throttle slightly generally kicks in EV mode.  In addition, Ford may have  tweaked the algorithms in later revisions.   Negative split is not the preferred mode and is used when ICE must be on.  The preferred modes are EV and positive split mode (ICE on, generator charging, traction motor assisting ICE propel car).

 

 

Edit:  Yes the "lean" burn mode i'm referring to is when the battery is charging (near max) and getting over 40+ mpg.     It only gets to this point *IF* the battery is almost nearly fully charged..  the problem is now the battery doesn't get nearly as high as it used to on the highway, no matter what, flat land or not (i'm in Florida, we are very flat here) it will force the battery to discharge a bit before charging it back up a little and do this cycle over and over..  a behavior I haven't seen before until recently..  Normally it would just sit almost always almost fully charged and does the EV split mode for assist..  It's still assisting, I see a blue section of EV power while the ICE is on but it's just not charging the battery as often as it used to.  

 

Well I did have my car in for service to have the Sync system replaced (black screen problems) and it does kind of seem ever since I got my car back the highway behavior has been worse. but city seems to be the same..  I've hit 50+ on many city trips by taking it slow and easy around town.     

 

I actually asked Ford to update the ECU software while it was in the shop but they wanted $150 or so to do so I said no..  but I'm wondering if they flashed it to the latest..  Any way of knowing what ECU software the car is running?     I do have a ODB2 usb dongle that can interface with applications but I have no idea what software to use to check this.  

Edited August 22, 2018 by Diversion

[plus 3 golfer]

See if your dongle is compatible with ForScan.  If so, you can buy the appropriate APP for a smartphone or download the free Windows APP.  There is info on the modules but I don't know whether we can decifer it with respect to software version / revision level.  I'll check on my car.  

 

 My service records indicate three PCM updates to the latest calibration level for my car.  The last one is dated June 10, 2015 and was done with CSP 15B04.

[plus 3 golfer]

Attached are screenshots from Forscan of my module information.  The Strategy should be the version of firmware currently installed on my C-Max.  I believe the Calibration is as-built data that is specific to VINs.  For example, DRLs implemented / not implemented.

 

My guess is that Dealers / independent shops simply follow the VCM II tool / IDS protocol, TSBs, and Manuals when performing module updates and know little of what is different from previous versions.  One can DIY with the tool and a Ford IDS subscription. 

 

About the only thing an owner can do is compare their module data with others and pay for updates out of warranty. Some updates are CSPs (not Recalls) and have expiration dates.

[ptjones]

"Diversion" Have you watched my YouTube videos?  http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/6568-how-to-drive-a-cmax-hybridffh-to-get-great-gas-mileage/

 

From my experience your Technique isn't the most efficient way to get the Best MPG's on the HWY, do you use the 2 Bar acceleration and go into EV when you reach about 50% state of charge(SOC)?  Have you use a good fuel injector cleaner?  If you are interested I do get out your way, have friends in Deltona, I could check your CMAX out, I have a ScanGaugeII to monitor ICE functions.  I average about 52-54 mpg on the FWY. :)

 

Paul

Edited August 27, 2018 by ptjones

[Redshift]

The "lean burn" mode is likely negative split mode operation where the SOC of the HVB is high (around 2/3 - 3/4 full when looking at the battery symbol), cruising on relatively flat ground at moderate speeds (50 - 70 mph).  By backing off the throttle ever so slightly (or going down a very slight downgrade), torque demand drops slightly.  The power control algorithms can then reduce ICE rpm by spinning the generator in the opposite direction thereby maintaining rpm to the final drive and thus mph.  The traction motor will be used to make up slight differences in torque requirements (either + or -).  The effect on ICE is that it is now operating on a more efficient point on the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption map.

 

Operating in negative split mode was easier to do prior to the Ford changing the maximum EV speed from 62? mph to 85 mph.  Now, backing off the throttle slightly generally kicks in EV mode.  In addition, Ford may have  tweaked the algorithms in later revisions.   Negative split is not the preferred mode and is used when ICE must be on.  The preferred modes are EV and positive split mode (ICE on, generator charging, traction motor assisting ICE propel car).

 

One thing. The generator doesn't physically change direction. The current flow direction is controlled electronically.

[plus 3 golfer]

 

The "lean burn" mode is likely negative split mode operation where the SOC of the HVB is high (around 2/3 - 3/4 full when looking at the battery symbol), cruising on relatively flat ground at moderate speeds (50 - 70 mph).  By backing off the throttle ever so slightly (or going down a very slight downgrade), torque demand drops slightly.  The power control algorithms can then reduce ICE rpm by spinning the generator in the opposite direction thereby maintaining rpm to the final drive and thus mph.  The traction motor will be used to make up slight differences in torque requirements (either + or -).  The effect on ICE is that it is now operating on a more efficient point on the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption map.

 

Operating in negative split mode was easier to do prior to the Ford changing the maximum EV speed from 62? mph to 85 mph.  Now, backing off the throttle slightly generally kicks in EV mode.  In addition, Ford may have  tweaked the algorithms in later revisions.   Negative split is not the preferred mode and is used when ICE must be on.  The preferred modes are EV and positive split mode (ICE on, generator charging, traction motor assisting ICE propel car).

 

One thing. The generator doesn't physically change direction. The current flow direction is controlled electronically.

 

No, your addition to my post (shown in red) is incorrect. 

 

The generator rotation physically changes direction in negative split mode from positive split mode. So, by changing electronically the phase relationship of the 3 phases of the generator, the generator can be made to spin in the opposite direction thereby allowing the rpm of ICE to drop while still applying the same torque demand.  The generator rpm is added to the reduced ICE rpm to keep rpm to the wheels virtually the same.  See attached chart showing ICE, Generator, and Traction Motor RPM that I posted several years ago.  Clearly, the generator physically changed direction of rotation (blue dotted line). Also note how the Generator controls the overall "gear ratio" (green dotted line vs blue dotted line). 

 

Also, the torque requirements must remain in balance to the wheels to maintain the same speed.  So, the traction motor can act as a generator producing electric energy that will be used by the generator (acting as a motor).  The control algorithms will adjust the torque requirements of the generator and traction motor to keep ICE operating as efficiently as possible.  But, the transmission operating efficiency suffers because of the losses in the generator and motor converting mechanical energy to electrical and back to mechanical in negative spit mode. 

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Tennesseecmax]

Diversion, I experience the same thing as you, my highway mileage is 36-39 mpg at 70 on flat ground. I know it's because of the 85 mph ev limit. The battery is always draining therefore putting the ICE under load, back and fourth. Really not a good thing for mpg. Almost wish I could change it back to 62 mph limit... I do a lot of highway driving at 70

[ptjones]

Actually raising the EV max speed was a good thing, because using 2 Bar acceleration seems to be the most efficient operation of the ICE.  That is to much power to keep a steady speed on the FWY so the extra power is converted into electrical energy and stored in the HVB.  This is where Pulse and Glide are used to make the ICE more efficient.  Then electrical energy is converted back to mechanical energy in EV Mode.  I'm in EV Mode more than 50% of the time on the FWY,  that wouldn't happen at 62mph and the ICE would never be operating at max efficiency.  A side note I do use coasting in neutral going down hill which doesn't charge the HVB, but does improve efficiency significantly  over charging the HVB in Drive. :)

 

Paul 

[DarenHayes]

hmm im in a 2013 and i think mine only does the 62mph thing, not 85,  which i thought i checked into before , but on the ford app it says my car doesnt have any recalls.  Wouldnt the  recall be on the Ford app if it wasnt done? Mine will still enter into EV mode over 62 mph , but only if im not touching the gas pedal really. Hmm, that kinda sucks, i thought the update was done.  Its a 2013 so im assuming i cant get it completed now ? Or how would i even know for sure ? i dont have a scan gauge or anything like that.. thanks ! I would say i get about 35mpg (traveling at speeds of 70-75 mph, if i go slower id say i get about 38mpg)) on the highway, which im not really complaining about ( i dont have the ESTires) . This post  is all over the place but basically how do you know if your car has had that update? thanks.

Edited September 26, 2018 by DarenHayes

[cr08]

It's not going to end up on the recall list as it isn't necessarily a safety issue. It's likely going to be one of those unlisted 'if we feel like it' or 'if requested' software updates that the dealer can do but isn't required to. It's very likely it may have been missed. You can certainly request your dealer to get everything up to date at a cost to you.

[plus 3 golfer]

hmm im in a 2013 and i think mine only does the 62mph thing, not 85,  which i thought i checked into before , but on the ford app it says my car doesnt have any recalls.  Wouldnt the  recall be on the Ford app if it wasnt done? Mine will still enter into EV mode over 62 mph , but only if im not touching the gas pedal really. Hmm, that kinda sucks, i thought the update was done.  Its a 2013 so im assuming i cant get it completed now ? Or how would i even know for sure ? i dont have a scan gauge or anything like that.. thanks ! I would say i get about 35mpg (traveling at speeds of 70-75 mph, if i go slower id say i get about 38mpg)) on the highway, which im not really complaining about ( i dont have the ESTires) . This post  is all over the place but basically how do you know if your car has had that update? thanks.

Watch the EMPOWER screen.  On slight downgrade with SOC above 50% and speed 70+ mph, back off throttle slightly until screen shows you are in EV mode and speed should still be around 70 mph.  ICE willl be off.  If speed falls to mid 60s mph before EV mode, you likely do not have the update.

[homestead]

I think this is the update that increased ev speed in aug 2013.

SSM 44124 - Customer Satisfaction Program 13B07 Fuel Economy Improvement - Powertrain Control Module Calibration

Certain 2013 Model Year C-MAX, Fusion, and MKZ Hybrid Vehicles - Fuel Economy Improvement - Powertrain Control Module Calibration When updating the PCM and SOBDM-C modules as part of FSA 13B07, use IDS R85.05 and either the VCM I or the VCM II. If the IDS software has been updated to R86.00, the user must update to R86.01 and use the VCM I. Do not use the VCM II and IDS R86.01 to perform FSA 13B07.

[ptjones]

hmm im in a 2013 and i think mine only does the 62mph thing, not 85,  which i thought i checked into before , but on the ford app it says my car doesnt have any recalls.  Wouldnt the  recall be on the Ford app if it wasnt done? Mine will still enter into EV mode over 62 mph , but only if im not touching the gas pedal really. Hmm, that kinda sucks, i thought the update was done.  Its a 2013 so im assuming i cant get it completed now ? Or how would i even know for sure ? i dont have a scan gauge or anything like that.. thanks ! I would say i get about 35mpg (traveling at speeds of 70-75 mph, if i go slower id say i get about 38mpg)) on the highway, which im not really complaining about ( i dont have the ESTires) . This post  is all over the place but basically how do you know if your car has had that update? thanks.

The CMAX won't go into EV above 62 mph no matter what if you don't have the up grade. So if it goes into EV Mode above 62 mph you have the up grade. :)

 

Paul

[DarenHayes]

Thank you Paul !!

[plus 3 golfer]

The CMAX won't go into EV above 62 mph  if you don't have the up grade. So if it goes into EV Mode above 62 mph you have the up grade. :)

 

Paul

Before 13b07 I could drive at 66 mph in EV by doing exactly what I said in my previous post.  What I could not do was to increase speed from below 62 to 66 mph in EV.  In fact, even with the EV limit at 85 mph it's virtually impossible to accelerate from a lower speed to 85 mph in EV unless one is going down a steep grade. I believe overall torque requirement is also taken into account in addition to absolute speed when determining EV mode operation. 

[ptjones]

Before 13b07 I could drive at 66 mph in EV by doing exactly what I said in my previous post.  What I could not do was to increase speed from below 62 to 66 mph in EV.  In fact, even with the EV limit at 85 mph it's virtually impossible to accelerate from a lower speed to 85 mph in EV unless one is going down a steep grade. I believe overall torque requirement is also taken into account in addition to absolute speed when determining EV mode operation. 

Interesting, I can increase speed at 65 mph in EV, maybe it is because of my MODS with less aero drag. :headscratch:  You Think?  The ability to accelerate in EV is tied to SOC, the higher percentage SOC the more power you have available in EV.  The temperature of the HVB has an effect on this too.  Most CMAX Hybrid owners don't realize that their CMAX is an Energi with a small HVB, about 1/4 the size and then the computer only allows you to use 1/3 of it.  :sad:

 

If you want to see what it is like to drive an Energi, tonight when you are going Home the last few miles don't use EV and try to keep your HVB charged up as much as possible.  The next morning after turning on the CMAX use the Empower Smart Gauge to see what your SOC of the HVB which should be close to the top. Then look at the available EV power in blue box on left side and the top of it should be around the 2 Bar line. Then drive off watching the blue power being used line in the blue power available box not to exceed the top of the box. You will be surprised how powerful the car is in EV and will be able to go a mile or 2 in EV if you keep it under 35 mph. If you go above that the ICE will start automatically to lubricate the trans.  After that you can go back to EV and accelerate up to 55 mph in EV before you run out of HVB power. :)

The Energi can go up to 85 mph in EV, but the HVB will discharge very quickly and cutting down the range in EV.

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

Interesting, I can increase speed at 65 mph in EV, maybe it is because of my MODS with less aero drag. :headscratch:  You Think?  The ability to accelerate in EV is tied to SOC, the higher percentage SOC the more power you have available in EV.  The temperature of the HVB has an effect on this too.  Most CMAX Hybrid owners don't realize that their CMAX is an Energi with a small HVB, about 1/4 the size and then the computer only allows you to use 1/3 of it.  :sad:

 

If you want to see what it is like to drive an Energi, tonight when you are going Home the last few miles don't use EV and try to keep your HVB charged up as much as possible.  The next morning after turning on the CMAX use the Empower Smart Gauge to see what your SOC of the HVB which should be close to the top. Then look at the available EV power in blue box on left side and the top of it should be around the 2 Bar line. Then drive off watching the blue power being used line in the blue power available box not to exceed the top of the box. You will be surprised how powerful the car is in EV and will be able to go a mile or 2 in EV if you keep it under 35 mph. If you go above that the ICE will start automatically to lubricate the trans.  After that you can go back to EV and accelerate up to 55 mph in EV before you run out of HVB power. :)

The Energi can go up to 85 mph in EV, but the HVB will discharge very quickly and cutting down the range in EV.

 

Paul 

Yes, I can also increase speed (apply throttle) above 65 mph now in EV but not pre-13B07.  This discussuon started based on how to determine whether the poster had 13b07. 

 

Yes, the torque monitor algorithm will see less torque requirement because of your aero mods.  Obviously, the algorithms in the Energi will have more kWh available in the HVB and an auxiliary electric cooling pump, and thus can allocate all torque requirements to EV up to the nominal 85 mph limit or max torque limit of the traction motor for a longer period of time than the hybrid. 

 

I have already driven nearly 2 miles in EV mode several years ago and documented it in this post. What point are you trying to make?  My SOC declined about 30% or HVB energy declined about 0.4 kWh.  At slow speed one should be able to drive about 5 miles per kWh or 2 miles on 0.4 kWh - nothing new. :)

[ptjones]

Before 13b07 I could drive at 66 mph in EV by doing exactly what I said in my previous post.  What I could not do was to increase speed from below 62 to 66 mph in EV.  In fact, even with the EV limit at 85 mph it's virtually impossible to accelerate from a lower speed to 85 mph in EV unless one is going down a steep grade. I believe overall torque requirement is also taken into account in addition to absolute speed when determining EV mode operation. 

Your statement above was a little confusing for me. :)

 

Paul

[Redshift]

 

No, your addition to my post (shown in red) is incorrect. 

 

The generator rotation physically changes direction in negative split mode from positive split mode. So, by changing electronically the phase relationship of the 3 phases of the generator, the generator can be made to spin in the opposite direction thereby allowing the rpm of ICE to drop while still applying the same torque demand.  The generator rpm is added to the reduced ICE rpm to keep rpm to the wheels virtually the same.  See attached chart showing ICE, Generator, and Traction Motor RPM that I posted several years ago.  Clearly, the generator physically changed direction of rotation (blue dotted line). Also note how the Generator controls the overall "gear ratio" (green dotted line vs blue dotted line). 

 

Also, the torque requirements must remain in balance to the wheels to maintain the same speed.  So, the traction motor can act as a generator producing electric energy that will be used by the generator (acting as a motor).  The control algorithms will adjust the torque requirements of the generator and traction motor to keep ICE operating as efficiently as possible.  But, the transmission operating efficiency suffers because of the losses in the generator and motor converting mechanical energy to electrical and back to mechanical in negative spit mode. 

 

C-Max RPM.JPG

 

The electric motors spin at high RPM. They DO NOT physically reverse direction. https://www.thoughtco.com/how-inverters-and-converters-work-85612

 

[plus 3 golfer]

Redshift tell me what happens when you shift into reverse???? 

[plus 3 golfer]

For those that don't understand how a Power Split transmission works go to this link and set the sliders in the animation as I describe below for examples of how positive, negative, EV, reverse, and stationary modes work.   The rpms shown are based on the Prius transmission.  The C-Max rpms will be different but the same principles apply.  Also, this diargam is for rpm only and not torque as the motors can supply positive or negative torque irrespective of rotational direction.

 

Stationary Mode:  vehicle is not moving.   1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to zero mph. 2) move ICE slider up and down. 3) the generator rpm will be positive and the control algorithms will determine whether to charge the HVB by applying the appropriate three phase voltages and frequency to generator (MG1) so that current will flow from the generator to the inverter and then to the HVB.  The rotation of MG1 is deemed positive.

 

Reverse Mode:  vehicle is moving in reverse.  1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to -10 mph.  2) move ICE slider to zero.  3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be positive.  The traction motor (MG2) will supply torque to the wheels so the vehicle moves in reverse (negative rpm).

 

EV Mode: ICE is off and vehicle is being propelled by the traction motor (MG2).   1) set ICE to zero rpm.  2) move MG2 slider up and down above zero rpm.  3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be negative.  For the C-Max, the gearing is such that rpm is almost a -1:1 ratio of MG1:MG2 rpm.  The control algorithms will use the energy from the HVB to operate MG2.  

 

Positive Split Mode:   ICE is on and vehicle is moving. HVB being charged.  1)  set ICE rpm slider and traction motor rpm slider (MG2) so that the generator rpm (MG1) is greater than zero.  This is positive split mode where the control algoritms determine how much ICE torque is applied to the generator to charge the HVB.

 

Negative Split Mode:  ICE is on, HVB SOC is high (control algorithms won't allow any more charge), and vehicle cruising at higher speed.  1)  Set MG2 rpm high (say above 65 mph) to simulate that EV mode would not likely be used.  2)  set ICE slider so that MG1 rpm is about zero.   3) now slide ICE rpm lower simulating constant torque but at reduced rpm (more efficient operating point on the BSFC map of ICE). MG1 rpm is negative (physical rotation has changed from positive split mode.  The control algorithms will operate MG1 as a motor applying torque to slow down ICE.  The traction motor rpm remains constant but may act as a generator to utilize the combined torque of ICE and MG1 or motor if additional torque is required in both cases to maintain speed.

 

As one can see from my graph in a previous post and the linked demo (despite what Redshift continues to say),  the algorithms will switch the physical direction of rotation of the generator extremely quickly via electronics and seamless to the driver for the benefit of operating most efficiently. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer