Who is going to jump to the Escape Hybrid?

[fbov]

... the best temp for LiON battery was 86*F/30C.

Think how the discussion changes if this is actually the best MAXIMUM temperature...

[plus 3 golfer]

About the only time I get above 55% SOC is with Regen and then I can hit 65-70% SOC given that I think we have a bigger window temp wise, I think I have seen 120*F going across the desert at OT of 107-110*F. :sad:

 

Paul

There's no issue with our Hybrid because the SOC only gets to around 70% occasionally and then is depleted rapidly.  So, the time at higher SOC and high temps would be virtually zero.  With the 1.1 kWh battery it's likely that there will be more time spent at higher SOC but liquid cooling should keep the battery at a reasonable temperature to mitigate capacity fade.

 

Think how the discussion changes if this is actually the best MAXIMUM temperature...

It wouldn't surprise me if your thinking is correct.   Regardless whether it is best max or not, while plugged-in (whether charging or not), the chiller (assume heat pump for winter heating of coolant) has to stay on so that the liquid HVB coolant is run through the chiller to keep battery no higher than 30 C in summer.  Then, one can unplug in morning and drive and not worry as much about capacity fade.  Problem is we will likely not know until someone buys an Escape PHEV and runs tests and records data. Perhaps Ford will describe the operations in the Service Manual for the Escape.

 

Battery fade is a fact of life of lithium ion batteries that Ford needs to cover under warranty.  That's they only way I'd buy one in the first few MY years. All one needs to do is read the C-Max and Fusion Energi forums about owners' HVB capacity fade and Ford / dealer saying it's normal.

[stratosurfer]

My question concerning the Escape Hybrid is whether or not it is a Full Hybrid as our C-Max's are or Partial Hybrids as is designed for the f150 with only one motor/generator mounted in the front of the 10 speed transmission. I understand that this PHEV setup is supposed to be more robust for towing, which is probably true. Yet I am towing routinely with my C-Max at 1000 lbs, and the new RAV-4's hybrid drive is very similar the C-Max's FHEV drive, and the RAV-4 is rated to tow 1,750 lbs. This is a major point to me. The PHEV will do much better on mpgs than a full gas with Start Stop, but not nearly as well as our FHEV drivetrains.

[zalusky]

Lincoln is supposed to have a Ford Escape Hybrid equivalent for next year.  Anybody have any better links for that than the google.

[fbov]

My question concerning the Escape Hybrid is whether or not it is a Full Hybrid as our C-Max's ...

Same power-split based drivetrain as the C-Max but...

- 2.5L ICE

- optional AWD

- 1,500 lb. tow limit. 

 

I haven't seen any details on the motors. A little more power (200 HP), a little less weight (86 lb. lighter FWD or 66 lb.heavier AWD). 

 

Frank 

[stratosurfer]

Same power-split based drivetrain as the C-Max but...

- 2.5L ICE

- optional AWD

- 1,500 lb. tow limit. 

 

I haven't seen any details on the motors. A little more power (200 HP), a little less weight (86 lb. lighter FWD or 66 lb.heavier AWD). 

 

Frank 

Okay, well that's good. I will trust this stage of development in this drivetrain, and it is in my personal experience certainly more than capable of towing relatively light loads. I will now be curious if the AWD is setup like Toyota's with a third motor-generator coupled to the rear axle, or more conventional with an AWD drive shaft from the Hybrid Drive to the rear axle. That will be interesting to see Ford's thoughts on that combo in light of the success of the hybrid RAV4's and Hybrid Highlander AWDs. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by stratosurfer

[zalusky]

I have been anxiously waiting to hear some test drive tell me what the turning radius is.  I am pretty disappointed on the CMAX value relative to its size.

[fbov]

... I will now be curious if the AWD is ... conventional with an AWD drive shaft from the Hybrid Drive to the rear axle. ...

Conventional, but what Ford calls Intelligent Disconnect AWD. 

Frank

[djc]

Looks like several 2020 Escape preliminary reviews appeared on or around Sept 19.  This one at Forbes looks at hybrid and compares tech used in different Escape hybrid generations:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2019/09/19/2020-ford-escape-hybrid-the-original-american-hybrid-is-back-with-room-for-a-spare/#78e50d76d25b

 

This Consumer Reports video first look at the 2.0L: version they rented is generally quite positive; Escape discussion is about 8 minutes starting at minute 7:

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-driving/talking-cars-222-california-emissions-ford-escape-suv/

 

It appears the main hybrid contenders in this segment will be RAV4, Escape, and upcoming Honda CR-V.   The claimed 30 mile range of the plug-in hybrid sounds good.

 

I didn't see numbers for turning radius, but this review says  "Steering is nicely weighted, offering predictable feedback and an impressive turning radius which always helps in urban environments and parking garages." :

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/19/2020-ford-escape-hybrid-first-drive/?icid=autoblog|trend|2020-ford-escape-hybrid-first-drive-|-more-frugal,-but-still-fun

[stratosurfer]

Here is a video of the Intelligent AWD.

 

https://owner.ford.com/support/how-tos/safety/driver-assist-technology/driving/how-does-Intelligent-awd-4wd-work.html

Edited September 28, 2019 by stratosurfer

[zalusky]

Looks like several 2020 Escape preliminary reviews appeared on or around Sept 19.  This one at Forbes looks at hybrid and compares tech used in different Escape hybrid generations:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2019/09/19/2020-ford-escape-hybrid-the-original-american-hybrid-is-back-with-room-for-a-spare/#78e50d76d25b

 

This Consumer Reports video first look at the 2.0L: version they rented is generally quite positive; Escape discussion is about 8 minutes starting at minute 7:

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-driving/talking-cars-222-california-emissions-ford-escape-suv/

 

It appears the main hybrid contenders in this segment will be RAV4, Escape, and upcoming Honda CR-V.   The claimed 30 mile range of the plug-in hybrid sounds good.

 

I didn't see numbers for turning radius, but this review says  "Steering is nicely weighted, offering predictable feedback and an impressive turning radius which always helps in urban environments and parking garages." :

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/19/2020-ford-escape-hybrid-first-drive/?icid=autoblog|trend|2020-ford-escape-hybrid-first-drive-|-more-frugal,-but-still-fun

 

Thanks for the first clue.  I am hoping it is better than the CMAX and that the energy recovering braking of the hybrid does not penalize the turning radius.

[ptjones]

Thanks for the first clue.  I am hoping it is better than the CMAX and that the energy recovering braking of the hybrid does not penalize the turning radius.

Why do you think that Regen has anything to do with turning radius? :headscratch:

 

Paul

[zalusky]

I am assuming there is some hardware at the wheels that is not needed on non hybrid cars.

[stolenmoment]

No, regen is all in the drive motors, not at the wheel.  The wheels turn the motors, which can act as generators when being turned, instead of turning themselves.

[zalusky]

Thanks for the explanation.

[fbov]

I am assuming there is some hardware at the wheels that is not needed on non hybrid cars.

There is, in the RAV-4. Toyota's AWD puts a motor/generator on each rear wheel, where it has no effect on turning circle, but can provide regen braking and motive power. 

 

From what I've read, the disadvantage is that the rear MG capability limits the RAV-4 AWD split options, while the 2020 Escape AWD is AI-based, with a 0-100% torque split with the front wheels. The rear axle is open-diff... no left-right limited slip, just front-rear. It's the same as the 2019 Edge AWD, so a second-year technology. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

[markd]

Ford is claiming 45 mpg on the hybrid. It's a slicker vehicle but I have my doubts.

[fbov]

Do you have a source for that number? The only 2020 Escape drivetrain listed by the EPA is the 1.3L Turbo 8-speed FWD. 30 MPG is not bad compared with the 2019's mid-20's.  

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.shtml

 

Frank

Edited October 1, 2019 by fbov

[markd]

I'll look for a link. I read it the other day.

[ptjones]

I was getting 42 City mpg with my 2010 FEH, 30 Hwy and 35 mpg 55 mph State Routes.  Knowing what I know now I could get a few more MPG's.

 

Paul

[fbov]

Small comfort, Paul. You're besting the C-Max EPA mileage by 25%, so by your logic, it'll come in at 35 MPG! 

 

Note that on older cars like ours, the EPA site posts an average mileage (39.6 MPG) and links to the data. It reinforces my belief that folks will use as much fuel as their car allows; high mileage cars just don't allow fuel use. "Fun to drive" and high mileage requires driver participation. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

[SnowStorm]

Although the Escape sounds good with several features I want that aren't on the C-Max, there's not much chance of getting one as my wife has had it with Ford and all the problems - and I'm not far behind.  To list:

1. Dead transmission with hole worn clear through the side!  Ford won't do anything for us.
2. Dead batteries.
3. Dead radio/audio - just leave the fuse out.
4. Loud "pop" on acceleration - sounds like the car is coming apart.
5. Lift-gate has always been temperamental about opening.
6. What did I forget?

Otherwise its a great car!  Had hoped to go straight to a BEV in a few years but might have to look at the RAV-4 hybrid.  I'll need a grill cover for sure, a big one - just to cover all that ugliness!

[plus 3 golfer]

Although the Escape sounds good with several features I want that aren't on the C-Max, there's not much chance of getting one as my wife has had it with Ford and all the problems - and I'm not far behind.  To list:

 

• Dead transmission with hole worn clear through the side!  Ford won't do anything for us.
• Dead batteries.
• Dead radio/audio - just leave the fuse out.
• Loud "pop" on acceleration - sounds like the car is coming apart.
• Lift-gate has always been temperamental about opening.
• What did I forget?

Otherwise its a great car!  Had hoped to go straight to a BEV in a few years but might have to look at the RAV-4 hybrid.  I'll need a grill cover for sure, a big one - just to cover all that ugliness!

Rear suspension camber causing premature wear of tires and unbearable tire noise at 70+ mph, otherwise for me a great car (assuming tranny holds up a little longer at least a couple more years).

[fbov]

... my wife has had it with Ford and all the problems...Otherwise its a great car! ...

FWIW, here's the service history for mine. Lines separate invoices, oil changes highlighted at 5.6K, and every 10K after. The only thing that jumps out is brakes - rust issues up front, caliper issues in the rear - and the large number of recalls from Day 1... three PCM updates, one per year through 2015. 

Service Actions 2013 CMax.pdf

 

And then there's the INL AVT data, 130-170K miles on four 2013's in heavy service in Az. All got trannies, none got batteries (2-year test).  

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2013-ford-c-max

 

This data isn't impressive until you look at some other electric vehicles. They don't fit on 1 page.  

 

I see the slow roll-out as a good thing. Today's paper had articles on it and Honda's CR-V Hybrid, noting that the Escape shares the Focus platform, as the C-Max had, and that Ford plans to build it in 5 plants, worldwide. We know FWD Hybrids are a Spring item, plug-in later than that. A slow but hopefully quality rollout. For me, a C-Max repeat would be excellent!

 

Have fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

Although the Escape sounds good with several features I want that aren't on the C-Max, there's not much chance of getting one as my wife has had it with Ford and all the problems - and I'm not far behind.  To list:

1. Dead transmission with hole worn clear through the side!  Ford won't do anything for us.
2. Dead batteries.
3. Dead radio/audio - just leave the fuse out.
4. Loud "pop" on acceleration - sounds like the car is coming apart.
5. Lift-gate has always been temperamental about opening.
6. What did I forget?

Otherwise its a great car!  Had hoped to go straight to a BEV in a few years but might have to look at the RAV-4 hybrid.  I'll need a grill cover for sure, a big one - just to cover all that ugliness!

How many miles do you have? Car is seven years old.

 

Paul