homestead Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 (edited) DETROIT – They knew the truth and kept quiet.Their secret wasn’t a secret at all in engineering, product development, research, design or manufacturing within Ford Motor Co., say seven current and former employees who worked to develop and launch the Fiesta and Focus cars that would become known for defective automatic transmissions.“My hands are dirty. I feel horrible,” said an engineer who played a key role in developing the popular compact cars. Ford workers break silence Edited December 5, 2019 by homestead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 That's the DPS6 transmission, not the HF35 in the C-Max. I wish we knew what went wrong with the HF35, and better yet, if or when they will pay us for the bad ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 They did warranty the bad ones anyway, I've got one. To me it seems the one bearing that failed wasn't heat treated right causing them to fail. IMO Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted December 6, 2019 Report Share Posted December 6, 2019 Ford workers break silenceApparently, Ford suffers from something similar to VW disease, of the self-destructive variety. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homestead Posted December 6, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2019 Sounds like a bad environment where the workers are afraid to speak up."Quality is job ??" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigqueue Posted January 15, 2020 Report Share Posted January 15, 2020 To be fair, the newest HF35 transmission was an new one developed inside Ford and meant to replace the older one's they used to outsource from a Japanese vendor. So while it was loosely based on a prior vendors unit, it was totally new to Ford. So they didn't really have the "experience" with the prior units that might have given them the insights into whatever problem they came across. Having said that....besides not finding it in their DVT tests (Design Verification Testing), they really took quite a long time to come to the table with a fix. I mean the issue was visible in the 2013 cars, pretty much right off. There are cars with very low miles failing....and yet they didn't get a "fix" into a production transmission until something like August 15, 2015..... That's a long time in my book.....now grant it, I work in the computer industry, and product response times are probably much faster with computer hardware than with cars. BTW: I am sure most of you have seen it, but this guy on Youtube has some great videos on the CMAX transmission, and one on the different generations of Ford e-CVT transmissions: https://www.youtube.com/user/WeberAuto/search?query=CMAX Here is that last one I described about the generations of Ford eCVT: -Quentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted September 23, 2020 Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 The 8-year / 100,000-mile warranty on hybrid-specific components will hopefully save me here. I just took mine in yesterday. (They said the transmission shop is backed up and wouldn't be able to look at it for a few days, but I'm working from home now, so it isn't that big of a deal to be car-free for a while...) I really love my C-Max apart from this, and I hope this keeps it drivable another 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grege Posted September 23, 2020 Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 32 minutes ago, Noah Harbinger said: The 8-year / 100,000-mile warranty on hybrid-specific components will hopefully save me here. I just took mine in yesterday. (They said the transmission shop is backed up and wouldn't be able to look at it for a few days, but I'm working from home now, so it isn't that big of a deal to be car-free for a while...) I really love my C-Max apart from this, and I hope this keeps it drivable another 10 years. Fingers crossed for a good outcome. Please let us know the diagnosis and outcome. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted September 23, 2020 Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 34 minutes ago, grege said: Fingers crossed for a good outcome. Please let us know the diagnosis and outcome. Greg They just called to say they're looking at TSB 20-2219: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/MC-10177123-0001.pdf After reading that, I'm curious if that is the right TSB, since it states "The noise may be present in all gear ranges including neutral when the vehicle is moving but will not be present when the vehicle is stationary or in park" - the noise definitely occurs (in all gear selector positions) when the engine is on but the car is not moving. Maybe the TSB means, "... when the gas engine is on ... "? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 Yes TSB is correct, Because the output / transfer shaft has to be spinning for noise (car has to be moving). If no noise from transfer shaft components, TSB does not apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Plus 3 Golfer said: Yes TSB is correct, Because the output / transfer shaft has to be spinning for noise (car has to be moving). If no noise from transfer shaft components, TSB does not apply. And that's my biggest worry - if it is deemed that the TSB doesn't apply and that the noise alone doesn't warrant repair. Maybe I'm vain, but it is embarrassing to have a car making that much noise. I adjust my driving so that the battery is full before pulling into parking lots so that people don't stare at me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 So, are you saying there is no noise with ICE on and car is moving? And there is no noise when in EV when moving? So, perhaps it is a bad damper. Perhaps with ICE on and stopped, the damper springs are shot and damper vibrates but once moving there is enough torque where the vibration stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) The noise is present when the ICE is on, both when stationary and when moving. No noise when in EV and moving. The dealer called today to say that they got it apart and that it was bad enough that they'll replace the transmission under warranty (I'm still under 80k miles - yeah, I'm a light driver! Hopefully there are many more miles to come...). I am always nervous about talking to people in real life (and I was just so glad it was something that would be covered!) so I forgot to ask for details - I'll ask more when I pick it up. Edited October 6, 2020 by Noah Harbinger fbov and pureenergi 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonerbreth Posted October 14, 2020 Report Share Posted October 14, 2020 I'm happy to report that after bringing my 2014 C-Max Energi to a local Ford dealership to diagnose a howling/growling noise in ICE and electric mode, they replaced the gear and shaft assy at no cost. I couldn't be more pleased with this outcome. The invoice refers to TSG 20-2219. C-MaxA2, Noah Harbinger and grege 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takingittothemax Posted October 14, 2020 Report Share Posted October 14, 2020 56 minutes ago, tonerbreth said: I'm happy to report that after bringing my 2014 C-Max Energi to a local Ford dealership to diagnose a howling/growling noise in ICE and electric mode, they replaced the gear and shaft assy at no cost. I couldn't be more pleased with this outcome. The invoice refers to TSG 20-2219. Great news!! I still live in fear that my 2014's transmission will go when my hybrid drivetrain warranty expires in early 2022. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted October 14, 2020 Report Share Posted October 14, 2020 (edited) I got mine back yesterday. Yay! The technician's notes read: "Road test vehicle and verified TSB 20-2219 applies. Removed trans for inspection as per TSB. Split trans case and inspect. Verified pitting final drive and transfer shaft bearings. Found transfer shaft gear wore into the dampener housing. Replaced trans as per TSB 20-2219 and flushed trans cooler. Updated trans strategy and road test." It's going to take a while to get used to it being so quiet again, and to un-train the internal mental grimace of anticipation of the engine turning on at low speeds. It feels like getting a whole new car, so I am quite happy, and looking forward to driving it for many years! Edited October 14, 2020 by Noah Harbinger takingittothemax, pureenergi, C-MaxA2 and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted October 15, 2020 Report Share Posted October 15, 2020 Its great to hear your good news! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted October 15, 2020 Report Share Posted October 15, 2020 Great news! How many miles prior did you start to hear the transmission noise? and did the noise change over time? Frequency? Loudness? I note Ford is using remanufactured transmissions now. It looks like MSRP is around $4800 with the lowest price on internet I saw was just under $4000. One assumes that Ford mitigated the issue causing the early transmission to fail in the remanufactured transmissions. I’m at 132k miles (no noise) and see no reason to trade the car any time soon (now only putting 3k miles per year locally and up to 5k on trips.. So, should my transmission fail, the choices would likely be $4000 + installation - $5500 all in for remanufactured, $3000 / $3500 all in for a used 2016+ transmission + installation, or say goodby to our beloved C-Max. C-MaxA2, fbov and JAZ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djc Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 Kelly Blue Book (kbb.com) is valuing a 2013 SEL with 130k at: $2400-$4300 trade-in $3900 - $6500 private party selling Does not seem worth spending $5500 for one part in this near 8 year old model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homestead Posted December 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 Saw a 2013 Sel for sale on Craigslist for about $3500 with a bad transmission. Car had 115k miles and was still drivable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 On 10/14/2020 at 6:55 PM, plus 3 golfer said: Great news! How many miles prior did you start to hear the transmission noise? and did the noise change over time? Frequency? Loudness? I don't feel completely confident in my recollections, unfortunately - remembering details often causes one to reconstruct memories to fill in the missing details. I really should keep a diary of such things. That said: I am pretty sure the volume of the noise increased over time, because I think at first I would only notice it when the stereo volume was low (when I had my dad as a passenger) or if I was driving with the windows down (when I would hear it reflected off adjacent cars). At the time I was thought it would be treated by the dealer as an insignificant noise complaint. That was at about 55k miles. Maybe it could have been a bearing replacement if I had taken it in sooner? I kind of just got used to it. By 74k (when I took it in) it was loud enough to hear over my music, but I don't have any specific recollections of it getting louder, so I think it just got progressively worse over time. I initially had the impression that it was worse when the car was cold. By the end it didn't matter. (Unless by 'frequency' you mean 'pitch' - the pitch stayed the same). I would say it got harsher over time, but maybe that's just a result of getting louder. If you're curious, the write-up on the repair invoice says: "Reman trans 10.60 EEC test pass. Ran oasis TSb 20-2219 related. Road test vehicle and verified TSB 20-2219 applies. Removed trans for inspection as per TSB. Split trans case and inspect. Verified pitting final drive and transfer shaft bearings. Found transfer shaft gear wore into dampener housing. Replaced trans as per TSB 20-2219 and flushed trans cooler. Updated trans strategy and road test." So it sounds like what SnowStorm showed pictures of (though my dealer didn't share any pictures with me ?) Quote I note Ford is using remanufactured transmissions now. It looks like MSRP is around $4800 with the lowest price on internet I saw was just under $4000. One assumes that Ford mitigated the issue causing the early transmission to fail in the remanufactured transmissions. I’m at 132k miles (no noise) and see no reason to trade the car any time soon (now only putting 3k miles per year locally and up to 5k on trips.. So, should my transmission fail, the choices would likely be $4000 + installation - $5500 all in for remanufactured, $3000 / $3500 all in for a used 2016+ transmission + installation, or say goodby to our beloved C-Max. Yeah, my replacement was a remanufactured transmission. I sure hope it's a reliable remanufactured part. I'd definitely have had a hard time justifying that kind of a repair bill if I was out of warranty - I think I would have kept driving it around it died once and for all, and started setting aside money for the next car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty D. Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 I purchase my 2018 Hybrid C-Max in 2019. I took it in because it had a strange noise I didn't recognize. I made an appointment to take it in and they were backed up in service so I made an appointment and they estimate having it for a week and 1 and 1/2 weeks to repair. My dealer did offer me a car to use while the repairs are being made. Great that it was under warranty. i thought that the transmission problems had been resolved after earlier model failures. I'm concerned about the hybrid battery now as the replacement for these is also around $4,000. I didn't consider this when I purchased it. I do like the car very much though but concerned about the future maintenance costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takingittothemax Posted March 14, 2023 Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 Do you have a recording of the noise? Or can you describe it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted April 8 Report Share Posted April 8 On 3/14/2023 at 9:05 AM, Ty D. said: I purchase my 2018 Hybrid C-Max in 2019. I took it in because it had a strange noise I didn't recognize. I made an appointment to take it in and they were backed up in service so I made an appointment and they estimate having it for a week and 1 and 1/2 weeks to repair. My dealer did offer me a car to use while the repairs are being made. Great that it was under warranty. i thought that the transmission problems had been resolved after earlier model failures. I'm concerned about the hybrid battery now as the replacement for these is also around $4,000. I didn't consider this when I purchased it. I do like the car very much though but concerned about the future maintenance costs. I'll note that I'm >10 years in (only about 100k miles though) and my battery still seems to be doing fine (HEV_BAT_VAR_V, max variation in voltage between batteries, reads 0.01V, the minimum non-zero possible). I don't know the statistics, but I haven't heard about any abnormally frequent problems with the high-voltage battery pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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