Cmax Energi HVB Battery replaced under Warranty

[IslandCmax]

Aloha from Kauai!

 

Thank you Ford for replacing my HVB today!!! Love having my range back! Here's my journey: My 2014 energi Started having fairly significant capacity loss yr one that continued until last yr when I was at about 50% loss. Maybe i could squeeze in about 4 Kwh and it would use maybe 3.4 Kwh/ish. While Ford pushed back on the capacity loss, (I still think they should honor the 30% or more loss in 10 yrs or less industry standard) they did listen and act on the performance issue is was causing.  It would not stay in EV only mode and when accelerating it would only utilize about 1-bar of EV power causing almost a super short stall or mini jarring lag in what is normally smooth and strong acceleration. BTW they did change out the battery module first to rule that out as an Issue. I hope this helps a lot of owners. If your really stuck don't forget to reach out to some the community colleges that are rebuilding EV batteries for cheap or some work around.  Onward 

steve parsons Kauai

Edited January 30, 2020 by IslandCmax

[Billyk24]

, (I still think they should honor the 30% or more loss in 10 yrs or less industry standard----that is for a liquid cooled HVB which the CMax Energi is not.   The cooling  design is inadequate for hot weather and the problem become worse when owners drive their CMax as if it is a BEV.   Temperature and excessive loads (amps >70) placed upon the vehicle leads to premature KWh capacity loss.   An Energi owner, using he EV mode in piecemeal fashion showed after 46,000 miles he had 0.1 kWh loss in capacity (5.6 is new and he had 5.5).    

[bigqueue]

6 hours ago, Billyk24 said:

, (I still think they should honor the 30% or more loss in 10 yrs or less industry standard----that is for a liquid cooled HVB which the CMax Energi is not.   The cooling  design is inadequate for hot weather and the problem become worse when owners drive their CMax as if it is a BEV.   Temperature and excessive loads (amps >70) placed upon the vehicle leads to premature KWh capacity loss.   An Energi owner, using he EV mode in piecemeal fashion showed after 46,000 miles he had 0.1 kWh loss in capacity (5.6 is new and he had 5.5).    

 

I hear the Chevy Bolt and Volt batteries are liquid cooled, and that this is a far superior system for all sorts of reasons.....I live in New England, so I would not expect very many temperature extremes.....but are there stories of Ford battery loss like those of the Nissan Leaf?

[fbov]

There is data that says the Energi battery is only good for about 100K miles in stress environments (AZ). Of four vehicles, two exceeded 150K miles at test, and their batteries show a clear drop in energy capacity. 

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2013-ford-c-max-energi

 

Check out the Weber State videos for a good explanation of why the Leaf has losses. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtr07mdKhsUwVJjL8Kw_q5A

 

Have fun,

Frank

Edited February 11, 2020 by fbov

[Billyk24]

The Energi battery can degrade quickly when one drives it excessively in EV.  An owner in North Carolina, drove the first 20,000 miles with only 2,000 in the ICE and suffered a 1kWh capacity loss!    He spent the next 40,000 miles driving differently and claims only a 0.5kWh loss in capacity.   The Energi is not a BEV and should not be driven as it is one.   Those posting excessively high mpg figures are likely degrading their battery.   These individuals frequently point out they still get 20 miles per charge without realizing a significant portion is coming from MG2-regenerative braking/coasting. 

[plus 3 golfer]

Here’s HVB losses vs miles curves I prepared from the INL data and posted about 2 years ago for  the C-Max and Fusion  Energis and the C-Max Hybrids.  The Energis suffered over a 20% or about a 1.5 kWh loss at 160 k miles.  The Hybrids suffered about a 9.4 % loss at 160 k

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[bigqueue]

2 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

Here’s HVB losses vs miles curves I prepared from the INL data and posted about 2 years ago for  the C-Max and Fusion  Energis and the C-Max Hybrids.  The Energis suffered over a 20% or about a 1.5 kWh loss at 160 k miles.  The Hybrids suffered about a 9.4 % loss at 160 k

 

 

 

Interesting.....I always thought I would be hard on my battery when  I had my Honda Fit EV because I generally always kept the battery at 100% SOC. I would drive pretty much the full charge of the battery each way to work....maybe 5-10% extra is all I had when I would get there. Then I would put it on the charger and within a few hours it was at 100%. So ad I worked for 9 or 10 hours, it was at 100% for maybe 5 of those hours.....then I would drive home, again down to say 5% of the battery and put it right on the charger which would charge it up to full in a few hours and it would sit there at 100% for maybe 12 hours....so lots of time at 100%.....bit the sort of think a Li-ION loves to experience. (Lucky for me, I was in Massachusetts.....so not in the super hot environment)

 

I wonder if this was a factor for the Energi.....or was the chemistry of the bigger battery different for some reason?

 

The hybrid CMAX software does a good of keeping the battery between 30% and 80%, the sweet spot for Lithium life.

[plus 3 golfer]

19 hours ago, Billyk24 said:

The Energi battery can degrade quickly when one drives it excessively in EV.  An owner in North Carolina, drove the first 20,000 miles with only 2,000 in the ICE and suffered a 1kWh capacity loss!    He spent the next 40,000 miles driving differently and claims only a 0.5kWh loss in capacity.   The Energi is not a BEV and should not be driven as it is one.   Those posting excessively high mpg figures are likely degrading their battery.   These individuals frequently point out they still get 20 miles per charge without realizing a significant portion is coming from MG2-regenerative braking/coasting. 

As long as ICE supplied no energy to the HVB, 20 miles per charge is the correct range from wall power for that owner. EPA tests are no different. The car is driven on a dynamometer following the standard driving cycles which would include regenerative energy when the car is braking or coasting. Just like an ICE vehicle, mpg and mpge will vary depending on how the car is driven.  But, their driving range is not an appropriate measure of  HVB capacity loss when comparing with others’ driving range.  
 

However, if an owner drives the same route day in and day out, the owner can use a change in range over time as an rough estimate of % HVB losses which would include regeneration providing their driving style is virtually the same.  Then, the owner can multiple that % by the accepted usable kWh available for EV only operation to get kWh losses. For example, when new the owner got an average of 28 miles on a charge for his daily commute in the summer.  Now, 100 k miles later the owner gets 20 miles per charge over the summer,  The owner has lost approximately 28.6% of the nominal new 5.6 kWh of usable EV only capacity or about 1.6 kWh.  But, this 1.6 kWh loss when compared with the full capacity of the HVB of 7.6 kWh represents about a 21% loss.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

14 hours ago, bigqueue said:

 

Interesting.....I always thought I would be hard on my battery when  I had my Honda Fit EV because I generally always kept the battery at 100% SOC. I would drive pretty much the full charge of the battery each way to work....maybe 5-10% extra is all I had when I would get there. Then I would put it on the charger and within a few hours it was at 100%. So ad I worked for 9 or 10 hours, it was at 100% for maybe 5 of those hours.....then I would drive home, again down to say 5% of the battery and put it right on the charger which would charge it up to full in a few hours and it would sit there at 100% for maybe 12 hours....so lots of time at 100%.....bit the sort of think a Li-ION loves to experience. (Lucky for me, I was in Massachusetts.....so not in the super hot environment)

 

I wonder if this was a factor for the Energi.....or was the chemistry of the bigger battery different for some reason?

 

The hybrid CMAX software does a good of keeping the battery between 30% and 80%, the sweet spot for Lithium life.

No, the chemistry is the same in the Hybrid and  Energi battery.  IMO, the difference in the loss % relates to AZ heat and number of charge / discharge cycles of the Energi to near 100% capacity.  The normal operating range of the Hybrid battery in between high 30% to mid 50% SOC. Yes, if one doesn't charge the Energi to 100 % each time, the losses would decrease.

 

Here's my attempt to relate my Hybrid battery health to the INL tested hybrids at 105k miles.  I believe, the INL data and my data are very similar.  The standard method for measuring the capacity of a lithium ion battery is to discharge the battery from full charge at a 1C rate or in the case of the Hybrid battery at a rate of 5 A = 5Ah (nominal capacity rating) / 1 hour.  So, the appropriate curve to look at is the curve labeled 0-10 A to capture all data which when averaged is very near 5 A. As seen on the graph, the 10-20 discharge current curve is very close to the 0-10 A curve.  As discharge current increases, the curves drop. 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[dmmeado]

I just bought a 2013 C-Max Energi with 93K miles. It is only getting about 2.1 KWH per charge with only 5-7 miles of range. This seems like a pretty huge loss from 5.5 kwh. Greater that 60% seems higher than normal for loss. I am pulling this data directly from the app. I took it to the ford dealer and they "can find nothing wrong" They tell me they have no way to measure the capacity or check the pack but since there are no codes there is nothing they can do. Anyone had any experience with this? 

 

 

[plus 3 golfer]

First, a new HVB is about 7.6 kWh.  You have lost 3.4 kWh out of 7.6 or 45% of the capacity.     You still have about 55% capacity left.  So, my suggestion is to stop charging it and simply operate it as a hybrid.  You can then expect to get well over 200 k miles.  If you want to continue to use the remaining 2.1 kWh of usable range and mitigate the degradation, do the opposite of what I’ve listed below as likely cause of the degradation.
 

If there are no codes, the HVB is fine and has simply been abused by the previous owner and the HVB has degraded to a capacity of about 4.2 kWh likely due to a combination of cycling the HVB very frequently (maybe twice a day), charging in high ambient temperatures, and running in EV at very high speeds (very high discharge Amps).  Lithium ion batteries will degrade faster if operated in those conditions.

[val1ca]

My 2013 C-Max Energi has the same problem. It came with 40 km EV range at full charge and stayed there just in the first half of  year. It dropped down every year more than 10%. Right now full charge battery will give me 11 km range or 27.5% of initial Capacity of the battery.

Went twice in the last 2 months to my Ford dealer but I hit a hard wall, no one seems to understand my real issue: I don't have a problem with charging the battery, but with losing 72.5% of the storage capacity in 6 years. I mentioned the 8 years warranty on the batteries and again I witnessed a deaf ballet, no one will hear me.

Can anybody advise what I can do?

 

 

 

[val1ca]

On 2/14/2020 at 4:32 PM, dmmeado said:

I just bought a 2013 C-Max Energi with 93K miles. It is only getting about 2.1 KWH per charge with only 5-7 miles of range. This seems like a pretty huge loss from 5.5 kwh. Greater that 60% seems higher than normal for loss. I am pulling this data directly from the app. I took it to the ford dealer and they "can find nothing wrong" They tell me they have no way to measure the capacity or check the pack but since there are no codes there is nothing they can do. Anyone had any experience with this? 

 

 

The same here I just posted earlier. It looks like we have way of finding out what we can do about. Changing the batteries is out of question, is not worth it. 

[ptjones]

You might checkout these people for relatively cheaper alternative $2300-$2900. I think these are Hybrid and not Energi HVB  This shows the difference in module sizes between the Hybrid and Energi HVB. I talked to this company at a EV show.  https://greentecauto.com/product-category/ford/fusion

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

1 hour ago, val1ca said:

My 2013 C-Max Energi has the same problem. It came with 40 km EV range at full charge and stayed there just in the first half of  year. It dropped down every year more than 10%. Right now full charge battery will give me 11 km range or 27.5% of initial Capacity of the battery.

Went twice in the last 2 months to my Ford dealer but I hit a hard wall, no one seems to understand my real issue: I don't have a problem with charging the battery, but with losing 72.5% of the storage capacity in 6 years. I mentioned the 8 years warranty on the batteries and again I witnessed a deaf ballet, no one will hear me.

Can anybody advise what I can do?

 

 

 

It appears you have lost about 50% of the new nominal  HVB capacity of 7.6 kWh or 3.8 kWh.  This indicates that the capacity available for EV only has dropped from around 5.6 kWh, when new, to now around 1.8 kWh = (5.6 - 3.8).  This is consistent with your EV range of around 11 km.
 

Unfortunately, Ford does not warrant  HVB degradation, did not educate consumers as to what affects battery degradation, and neglected to provide sufficient “design” protection to mitigate battery degradation under “harsh” operating conditions.  The consequence of such to unaware owners can be significant loss of EV only range.  But, the HVB is still fine for hybrid operation.  
 

Since Ford will do nothing, you can replace the HVB but I doubt the economics will pay unless you change how you operate the car and plan to drive 100k miles or so.

 

 

 

 

[homestead]

I have a Hybrid but what can Energi owners do to help mitigate the HVB degradation during their daily charging/commutes?

[plus 3 golfer]

Raja an Energi owner has many great posts on the Energi forum on how to operate / charge an Energi to mitigate HVB degradation.  Energi owners need that site to be merged into this site or it to be resurrected. 
 

In general, one needs to monitor HVB temperature and operate and charge vehicle so the temperature of HVB stays under certain levels, “eliminate“ EV driving at high speeds / high power demand (use ICE instead), and reduce the frequency of cycling HVB to full charge.  

[val1ca]

5 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

It appears you have lost about 50% of the new nominal  HVB capacity of 7.6 kWh or 3.8 kWh.  This indicates that the capacity available for EV only has dropped from around 5.6 kWh, when new, to now around 1.8 kWh = (5.6 - 3.8).  This is consistent with your EV range of around 11 km.
 

Unfortunately, Ford does not warrant  HVB degradation, did not educate consumers as to what affects battery degradation, and neglected to provide sufficient “design” protection to mitigate battery degradation under “harsh” operating conditions.  The consequence of such to unaware owners can be significant loss of EV only range.  But, the HVB is still fine for hybrid operation.  
 

Since Ford will do nothing, you can replace the HVB but I doubt the economics will pay unless you change how you operate the car and plan to drive 100k miles or so.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply! This car is operating in Vancouver Lower Mainland where temperatures are mild. I am always switching to EV Later on Hwy and use EV only in the City traffic. Also, I am plugging the car overnight, so in the morning I will always  have 100%. charged My daily commute is 100km( 60 miles), 20 kms will be hwy. On my Ford app in the first 2 years I was in top 10 of every category under Local Ranking. Overall I'm really happy with my C-max Energi. I have 155K kms - 96K are EV., maintenance was very low cost, I changed tires and the wiper electric motor so far, and back up camera is not working( to much to change it- $1500 CAD). 

Probably I will never change the battery and when it dies I will just replace the car. I will never buy a plug-in hybrid or electric car. When hydrogen ones will be developing to  an efficient, reliable one I will consider to try it. I'm back on gas and I will get the Rivian SUV deposit back. Electric cars are not the future IMO.

[plus 3 golfer]

2 hours ago, val1ca said:

Thanks for your reply! This car is operating in Vancouver Lower Mainland where temperatures are mild. I am always switching to EV Later on Hwy and use EV only in the City traffic. Also, I am plugging the car overnight, so in the morning I will always  have 100%. charged My daily commute is 100km( 60 miles), 20 kms will be hwy. On my Ford app in the first 2 years I was in top 10 of every category under Local Ranking. Overall I'm really happy with my C-max Energi. I have 155K kms - 96K are EV., maintenance was very low cost, I changed tires and the wiper electric motor so far, and back up camera is not working( to much to change it- $1500 CAD). 

Probably I will never change the battery and when it dies I will just replace the car. I will never buy a plug-in hybrid or electric car. When hydrogen ones will be developing to  an efficient, reliable one I will consider to try it. I'm back on gas and I will get the Rivian SUV deposit back. Electric cars are not the future IMO.

So, if you got 40 km / charge when new but have lost EV only capacity over time, you may have charged to 100% over 2000 times to get to 96 k EV.   Do you charge more than once a day?  Do you charge at 120 V or 240 V?  
 

Lithium ion battery degrade slightly every time one charges to 100%.  The  C-Max HVBs are NMC which have a cycle life (fall below 80% of new capacity) of between about 1000 to 2000 cycles when charged to 100% depending on operating conditions.
 

There has to be something that has caused your significant degradation.  

Edited February 24, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[mikekoz]

   I cannot get into the technical specs of my battery, just the real life effects of age. When our Cmax was 2 years old and under, the car would go 15-24 miles on electric power. The battery gauge on the dash would show 18-24 miles after a fill charge depending on the temperature outside. Now, after owning the car for six years, the gauge will show 8 to 11 miles, and in reality, gets less. I would say the battery craps out after about 6-10 miles. Ford said if the battery goes, they are about $13,000 to replace, which is about half of what we paid for the car, so it would total it.  The car still runs great and Ford said it is possible the car would still operate on gas only if the battery completely went out. The cars warranty has expired, but I am not sure how the battery warranty works. I think they told us it was seven years, but not sure if it is 7 years or after so many miles like the rest of the car.

[Billyk24]

a new HVB is about 7.6 kWh.  ------5.6KWh is the new capacity.  Not sure where you get the 7.6 figure.       The eCVT needs the HVB to function.   As long as the HVB will charge and start the vehicle, you can operate the vehicle even with a degraded HVB capacity.     

[plus 3 golfer]

2 hours ago, Billyk24 said:

a new HVB is about 7.6 kWh.  ------5.6KWh is the new capacity.  Not sure where you get the 7.6 figure.       The eCVT needs the HVB to function.   As long as the HVB will charge and start the vehicle, you can operate the vehicle even with a degraded HVB capacity.     

Yes, the size of the HVB is 7.6 kWh.  Do an internet search on the Energi specs, if you don’t believe that.  
 

Problem is people continue to use a 5.6 kWh “usable” range for EV only operation as the denominator in quoting %capacity loss from new or as one poster wrongly stated “losing 72.5% of the storage capacity in 6 years“  is not correct.  If the poster lost 72.5% of his storage capacity, his car would likely only operate as a hybrid.
 

5.6 kWh comes off the top of the 7.6 kWh.  That leaves about 2 kWh for hybrid use and buffer area after the 5.6 kWh is depleted.  As battery fade occurs (degradation), the capacity lost is from the 7.6 kWh to a lower number.  The % loss in capacity is the the capacity lost divided by 7.6 kWh.  The %loss in usable range is not the same as % capacity loss. 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ArizonaEnergi]

I have noticed a recent decrease in my EV miles to 15-18.  I'm tempted to blame some of the loss to my new Michelin Premium tires  but frankly I was not monitoring the EV miles carefully enough before I got the tires.  I have increased the pressure in them to 40 to mitigate any loss.  I have also been doing more 50 mph driving on EV in recent months which may be a factor in decreasing battery capacity.

 

I looked at my results back in the early years 2013-14 and it was 25-28 miles.  Ah, the good old days.  By very careful 40 mph max in town driving I got 18.8 recently.  Non careful and its 13-16.

 

The burden of being an early EV adopter of a flawed battery cooling system design. 

 

POWERS THAT BE:  BRING BACK THE ENERGI FORUM!  We need it.

[ArizonaEnergi]

Since the hot weather has arrived my EV range has dropped to 10-14.  Very disappointing.  I checked the warranty and it specifically excludes drop in capacity as that's "normal" for Li-Ion batteries.  So I anticipate soon it will be mainly running as a Hybrid and there will be no need to charge the battery for a few miles of EV.  I have 7 years on it and only 25,000 miles.

 

Very disappointed but the burden of being an early-adopter of the technology that was not well implemented by Ford (cooling, etc.).

 

Wish the Energi forum was back to share the misery.

 

 

[C-MaxA2]

The Energi was a flawed concept to me from the beginning.  I looked at both models of the C-Max and read comments like yours I had to ask myself if after 20 miles was worth having a 267 lb. 'passenger' sitting in the back until there was a recharge. Ford charged quite a bit more for it as well.  Now I see Energi models selling for lower than a straight Hybrid C-Max.