Extended Hybrid Battery Warranty through Ford?

[7doc508]

My daughter is set to buy a 2013 C-Max with 114k miles. The dealer (not a Ford dealer) said the battery warranty is for 10 years and that she can buy an extended warranty from Ford for $400 when the ten years are up. Is this correct? Or, is it $400 a year? I know nothing about hybrids and am concerned she may have to pay a lot of money down the road. She is not in a position to do so. She's already started the paperwork, but doesn't have the car yet. She's pretty set on the car, though. I realize any car of that age may have problems, but if this battery goes, it would be a huge expense.

[homestead]

2013's may have a transmission problem.  With 114k it may or may not already been replaced.  2016 would be a better choice.

[plus 3 golfer]

Search this site or internet for unique hybrid components warranty.  Unless you are in a State which follows "CARB" warranties the car HVB is warranted for 8 years 100k miles (10 years / 150k miles in cARB states).  Also, look up Ford extended warranties. You can price them on line at at many dealers like Flood Ford iirc. I don't believe Ford will sell one if you did not have one initially for the first 114 k miles.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

There have been comments by owners that the CARB hybrid warranty does not cover the transmission. Second, there are reports that Ford's unique hybrid components warranty may not cover bearing failure on the output shaft which is the most common cause of transmission failure which is covered under the 5/60 powertrain warranty.

The C-Max is a great car.  But, you need to find out whether the transmission has been replaced. Probably worth a CarFax report to see if it notes a replacement.  

[RustyMacIntosh]

we had a 13 CMAX from auction come in off the truck. Trans was rattling. It had 85k on it.  Sent it to Ford and 2 weeks later we had a new trans installed. They have 8/100k warranties.  My 15 with 95k is going to the dealer this am to be evaluated on possible drivetrain issues. 

 

[jestevens]

..and yet they are still using the HF35 .. if the transmission was really that bad you'd there were would be tons of Fusions breaking down as well..  Maybe something about the C-MAX application makes it less suitable.

[plus 3 golfer]

I agree, as we are not seeing “tons” of HF35s failing.  We really don’t know the failure rate. Some believe it is very high based on the INL failure of 3 out of 4 C-Max test vehicle transmissions.  A quick tally shows that Ford sold around 225,000 vehicles with HF35 transmission in 2013 and 2014.  Total sales are likely around 500,000 vehicles with the HF35 to date.  IMO, the primary reason potential owners should be concerned about the HF35 failures is the very high cost of replacement should the failure not be covered under warranty.  Of course as vehicles accumulate 100k miles the likelihood of any part Failing increases.  
 

I monitor(ed) the Fusion and C-Max Hybrid and Energi forums since 2012.  Based on reports of failures in the forums,  I doubt the failure rate is any more than several % points.  There have been very few reported failures in the forums.  As an example, VW TDIs had HPFP failures due to contaminated diesel fuel which were not covered by warranty.  Less than 250 failures were reported in the forum out of about 100,000 early units sold.  Actual failure rate reported to NHTSA was around 3.7%.  So, around 6.7% (250 /3700) of actual failures were reported in the forum.  So, using a transmission failure rate of 5% and the 6.7% number, we might expect as many as 750 transmission 2013/14 failures reported by members of forums.  No one, AFAIK, has tabulated the reported failures in the Ford forums, but IMO, it would be less than 750.  
 

 

[djc]

I think I remember hearing (maybe in this video:

that the Energi had an electric oil pump to lube the transmission whether the engine was running or not, but Ford took a gamble and on the regular hybrid relied on the engine oil pump, since there would be fewer miles with no engine.   I haven't re-watched the video (and maybe I heard it elsewhere)  but the part number for the $230 oil pump lists both Energi and Hybrid application.   Anyone know which is the case?

 

Also just what did they revise in the transmission after 2015 to make it more reliable?  A bearing?  If so, which?

Is there evidence that failures are more likely in hot climates?  With sustained freeway / high speed driving?

Anyone know what sort of driving was being done in the 4 govt owned C-max's?

 

I believe the HF35 was used in the police pursuit versions of the Fusion, so must be pretty durable in later years.

[Bill-N]

I think the transmission issue was first noticed in vehicles used in taxi service.

[djc]

Thanks Bill.  The government owned ones were piling on the miles.  I think they were being used in Arizona for courier service with lots of hot highway miles, but not sure of this.

[plus 3 golfer]

The INL statistics are on the INL website.  Both hybrid and Energi have a mechanical transmission oil pump which is driven only when ICE is running.  The Energi also has an electric aux. transmission oil pump. 

 

The taxi transmission issue is TSB 14-0024.  The 0024 specifically applies to hybrids in Taxi service. Later in 2014 Ford issued TSB 14-0176 which superseded 0024 to include all hybrids and Energis.  My guess is that the issue causing the transmission issue is exacerbated by the type of service the INL test vehicles and taxis operated under.  Ford has always stated failure may occur if operated under certain conditions yet fails to describe such conditions.  I still believe it is related to changes in axial load (trust) on the output shaft due to regeneration EV operation.  The direction of axial load (trust) on the output shaft will shift from EV operation to regeneration.  If one looks at pics of the shaft one can see the helical gears on the output shaft.   The bearing retainers have to hold the gears in place and not allow the shaft to move as it does when the transmission fails.  Perhaps this constant change in direction of axial load eventually overcomes the hold force of the bearings and the shaft starts to move.  Perhaps its related to number of cycles of this shifting / of axial load and  the magnitude of the axial load.  In addition, the lack of cooling / sufficient lubrication inside the transmission when in EV and regeneration (ICE off) might contribute to the issue.  But Energis have also had failed transmissions.

 

I guess the bottom line is if one does not know how vehicle was operated, I'd only buy a newer model of a model with a replaced transmission ( both after the build date in 2016 which we believe may have a transmission which mitigates the issue) or heavily discount the offer price otherwise.

 

 

[djc]

INL website unavailable for me this evening.  Google cached page for VIN 5139  shows that C-max went over 130k miles in 2 years 4 months, average temp 84°.  Fairly even mix of city / hwy.   So a lot of driving, and if 84° is the average, must have been some pretty high temps.

 

I wonder if the it matters if the mode shift is gentle or sudden?  e.g. abruptly go from regen to heavy throttle?  It's been a long time, but as I remember NYC taxi drivers race from traffic light to traffic light.  Maybe light-footed drivers less likely to have this tranny failure.