Second Ford replacement battery dead

[METROMAN]

2013 SEL with 81,000 miles. Replaced oem 12 volt battery after about 5 years. Ford replacement replaced last April. Replacement #2 now dead as a hammer. Same thing one month ago. When that happened, I put it on a battery tender overnight until it showed a completed charge. Car not driven since then. Voltage the day before thanksgiving was 2.74 volts measured under the hood. Yesterday it dropped to 2.25. This afternoon the reading was 1.94. Called dealer yesterday and told them I'd just drop it off, and they can keep it for a few days. Hopefully they can figure something out.

[djc]

Still running original 2013 battery.  

Are any of the 12v sockets live after car has been sitting?  i could track down my little volt meter that plugs into a cigarette lighter socket to keep tabs on it.  My impression is that the console socket is not live, after a short delay, once the ignition is turned off.

[METROMAN]

Not sure if anything is live. Patient is sitting at the dealership right now, awaiting a verdict.

[fbov]

7 hours ago, djc said:

Are any of the 12v sockets live after car has been sitting

Yes, the one in the cargo area. 

[METROMAN]

Well, just got a call from the stealership. Said they couldn't find anything wrong with the battery, or any drain from the system. They suggested I get all the modules software updates to handle a possible drain from them. Since I was told they couldn't find any drain, and he couldn't say it would really help, I declined that service

I now owe $295 for the checkout, (which told me nothing) and they wanted an additional $200 to update the software that I declined. The real kicker was, when I dropped the car off, they had me sign a form stating if it wasn't a warranty item, my checkout fee could run between $94 and $194, AND they would contact me first if it was going to run any higher. Guess what they didn't do. Yep, no call to get authorization to exceed $194. 

Anybody else had the above mentioned update?

[plus 3 golfer]

1) What “battery tender” do you have? The Ah rating of a new Ford battery is 43Ah.  So, most would say in the bulk charge mode, you want the constant charging current to be no less than 10% of the 43 Ah, say 5A and no more than 25% or say 10 A.  The bulk charge state should charge the battery to at least 70% (30 Ah) to no more than 80% (34 Ah) State of Charge.  So, bulk charge time will likely be between 3 hours and 7 hours for a completely discharged battery.  The remaining 20-30% charge to reach full charge would be in the absorption state of the charger.  This usually takes 2 to 3 times as long.  So, for a 10 A charger, charge time should be around 10 - 12 hours. For a 5 A charger, the charge time will likely be 18 - 24 hours.

 

2) A full charged battery with no load on it after resting for 24 hours is 12.6 V for a flooded battery which I assume the Ford battery is.  Since you read 12.74 V, there was surface charge on the battery which will be quickly depleted by the load on the battery.

 

3) Since the battery was connected to load when you measured voltage under hood, the chart below is a better representation of the SOC of the battery. Just opening hood (opening door) puts a several Amp load on battery.  My battery voltage is 12.35 V under hood and my 12 V battery SOC is 47%.  Based on my current reading, I would recommend using the c/20 curve in the chart below to measure your SOC as the C/20 curve matches my readings.

4) So, using your 2 voltage reading and the C/20 curve below, it appears your SOC dropped about 20% in 1 day (assume 24 hours) or 8.6 Ah in 24 hours which would be a drain of about 360 mA.  Normal drain should be less than 50 mA. Your drain is likely 7-10 times normal.

 

5) I assume dealer (for $295) checked the wiring noted in several recalls for causing battery drain.  We know that the APIM and certain associated modules have caused battery drain.  I would try pulling fuse 79 in fuse panel under glove box and leave out while you monitor battery drain over 24 hours. Then put fuse back in and monitor. Post your results.

 

 

 

 

[jzchen]

15 hours ago, METROMAN said:

Well, just got a call from the stealership. Said they couldn't find anything wrong with the battery, or any drain from the system. They suggested I get all the modules software updates to handle a possible drain from them. Since I was told they couldn't find any drain, and he couldn't say it would really help, I declined that service

I now owe $295 for the checkout, (which told me nothing) and they wanted an additional $200 to update the software that I declined. The real kicker was, when I dropped the car off, they had me sign a form stating if it wasn't a warranty item, my checkout fee could run between $94 and $194, AND they would contact me first if it was going to run any higher. Guess what they didn't do. Yep, no call to get authorization to exceed $194. 

Anybody else had the above mentioned update?

 

There was a trunk door wire harness issue on the 2013, (not sure if all 2013s were affected), which included a physical repair and retaping where the wire harness entered the body I think, and software update.  It was done under some sort of service campaign for us without cost.  We traded in the car in 2018 so I don't have record of it.  I'll see if my wife kept the folder somehow....

[SnowStorm]

I hate to say it, but the module update may have been worth it.  A major "dead battery" CSP (Customer Satisfaction Program) was "15B04 – 12 Volt Battery Test and Module Software Update – 2013-2014 Ford C-MAX".  It ended in 2016 so now, I suppose, you would have to pay for it.  I had several dead 12V battery events before having 15B04 done and essentially no problem since then.  In my jaundiced view, I wouldn't make any assumptions as to what the dealer did for $295 (except make a profit).  My suggestion is to follow plus 3 golfer's advice for battery charging/monitoring and then shop around for a dealer that will fully perform 15B04 at a "fair" price and report exactly what they find about bad wiring and what modules needed updating - along with version numbers (or "calibrations" or whatever they call them).  (I wish there was a way to find the latest software versions for your VIN and then compare what's actually in the car - but I don't know of one).

Edited December 9, 2020 by SnowStorm

[METROMAN]

Well been sick for a few days and just picked up the car this morning. The day i got the call from the service advisor, I ended up going back to the dealership and speaking directly to the service manager. I explained how I have had the car in several times before for the same issue, and nothing had ever been found. Also reminded him that other than myself, no one else had ever serviced the car but them, and despite the occasional battery issue, I'd been very happy with their service. I also stated that it sure was a shame that my 7 year 100k Ford extended warranty had recently expired, and it sure would have been nice if the issue could have been solved during that time period when i might have only paid a $50 deductible. I also mentioned the customer satisfaction bulletin for the module software update, how it had been issued several years ago, and no one had ever mentioned it to me, nor applied it to my vehicle. I then stated how I was asked to sign the estimate statement, and that the repairs would not exceed that amount without my permission. I further stated how there seemed to be a breakdown in communication,  and possibly in their company policy.

I also stated that I hoped we could work something out to help make me a happy customer again and that it could be a win win for both of us.

 

Well, he listened, seemed genuinely concerned, and was rather upset that I hadn't been contacted for an updated authorization.

He asked if they could keep the car for another day while he looked into it further. I told him keep it all week if you need to, please just see if you can figure it out.

 

Long story short, I was charged $123 total for all the "diagnostic work" and they threw in the software update for free. Hopefully it's healed now. I made sure to stop by and thank him for his help, and I intend to follow up with a thank you card. You gotta feel for those guys, Their bosses are probably always saying they need to improve profits, and customers always complaining.

 

I will check tomorrow and see/post what number update they did and post it.

 

[METROMAN]

Repair order says BCE module reprogram. Reprogrammed all modules, 5 total. 

Performed battery and electrical draw test. Charge battery/text good  Draw test ok  Drops to .05 amps

No additional info on order.  Hopefully it will be ok now. Guess I'll start checking the voltage daily and see if it starts dropping again.

 

 

[homestead]

Metroman your first post reminded me of reading this yesterday.  Don't know if it's true and it's a little hard to read but this was the part I was talking about.

 

Another Ford problem that is becoming more and more widespread is the refusal to recognize warranty issues.

There are quite a few neat tricks that Ford uses... like telling the consumer that there is no problem until the product is no longer under warranty

, telling the consumer that a part is on backorder until the product is no longer covered.

Believe me they do it for all their Brands, from Ford to Land-Rover.

Actually, the folks running the sales business get praise for doing this,

because it makes their products look better in JD Power Quality surveys and because it reduces the warranty repair expenses by huge sums of money.

[plus 3 golfer]

16 hours ago, METROMAN said:

Repair order says BCE module reprogram. Reprogrammed all modules, 5 total. 

Performed battery and electrical draw test. Charge battery/text good  Draw test ok  Drops to .05 amps

No additional info on order.  Hopefully it will be ok now. Guess I'll start checking the voltage daily and see if it starts dropping again.

 

 

Well it’s good news that dealer “finally” did the right thing.  AFAIK, there is no BCE module but likely the Battery Energy Control Module for the HVB. I’ve attached CSP 15B04 (which shows the list of modules to be reprogrammed) as reference for others who may find this thread and have dead 12V battery issues. 
 

The CSP is very clear as what dealer was suppose to do if vehicle was brought in for any service  prior to expiration of CSP.

 

SOLD VEHICLES

 Owners  of  affected  vehicles will  be  directed  to dealers  for  repairs.

 Immediately  contact  any  of  your  affected  customers  whose vehicles are not  on  your  VIN  list but  are  identified  in OASIS.    Give the  customer  a copy  of  the  Owner  Notification Letter  (when available)  and schedule a  service date.  
 Correct  other  affected  vehicles identified  in OASIS  which are brought  to your  dealership.”

 

R15B04-All.pdf

[METROMAN]

Wow, interesting. As you said, that's good info for people later.

[C-MaxA2]

Another thank you to Plus 3.   I've saved it for future reference.  I'd advise others who have any battery concerns to save this since this site has gone down before and given the situation with the C-Max it might disappear tomorrow with no notice.

[SnowStorm]

20 hours ago, C-MaxA2 said:

Another thank you to Plus 3.   I've saved it for future reference.  I'd advise others who have any battery concerns to save this since this site has gone down before and given the situation with the C-Max it might disappear tomorrow with no notice.

I'm worried about that possibility too.  Everyone needs to take Plus 3's advice to get up to speed with Forscan and buy the service manual.

[METROMAN]

Update. Back at dealer. Went out to check it yesterday morning, dead as a hammer. 7.59 volts. Called the service manager directly. He asked if I could drop it off for a few days again. Said his gut feeling is another bad battery. Sure, no problem, says I. I've got 3 other vehicles. Guess I'll hear something after new years. 

Seriously thinking of unloading it and finding a 2018 Titanium coming off lease.

Will post another update, when there's something to post.

Edited December 24, 2020 by METROMAN

[SnowStorm]

2 hours ago, METROMAN said:

Update. Back at dealer. Went out it check it yesterday morning, dead as a hammer. 7.59 volts. Called the service manager directly. He asked if I could drop it off for a few days again. Said his gut feeling is another bad battery.

You might want to read this post and also the link at end of my April 20, 2014 post.

The 12v battery seems to get run down during the night by something turning on and off (or not off!) which means that you can't just check for "no drain" after shutting off the car and expect everything to be OK.  Or its chaffed wiring which can be intermittent.  The battery could get 100% discharged (10.5v) many times and the car will still "start".  But then one night it goes below 8 and it won't start.  These repeated discharges weaken the battery however.  It seems strange that your battery was "good" 5 days ago and now they think its "bad".  Anyway, a new battery may appear to solve the problem for a while but its likely to fail again eventually.

Edited December 23, 2020 by SnowStorm

[plus 3 golfer]

On 12/22/2020 at 6:13 PM, METROMAN said:

Update. Back at dealer. Went out it check it yesterday morning, dead as a hammer. 7.59 volts. Called the service manager directly. He asked if I could drop it off for a few days again. Said his gut feeling is another bad battery. Sure, no problem, says I. I've got 3 other vehicles. Guess I'll hear something after new years. 

Seriously thinking of unloading it and finding a 2018 Titanium coming off lease.

Will post another update, when there's something to post.

Where do yo live? IIRC, eastern US?  One other thought is that there were connector issues up front not sealing and water intrusion would cause battery drain.  Was the car driven in rain, wet roads in the last 5 days?  I don’t recall the TSB related to this but dealer should check these connectors.

[METROMAN]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:00 AM, plus 3 golfer said:

Where do yo live? IIRC, eastern US?  One other thought is that there were connector issues up front not sealing and water intrusion would cause battery drain.  Was the car driven in rain, wet roads in the last 5 days?  I don’t recall the TSB related to this but dealer should check these connectors.

Update. Back at dealer. Went out to check it yesterday morning, dead as a hammer. 7.59 volts. Called the service manager directly. He asked if I could drop it off for a few days again. Said his gut feeling is another bad battery. Sure, no problem, says I. I've got 3 other vehicles. Guess I'll hear something after new years. 

Seriously thinking of unloading it and finding a 2018 Titanium coming off lease.

Will post another update, when there's something to post.

 

Living in eastern US. Hasn't been started, or driven, since it came back from the dealer, except for jumping and going back to the dealer.

Edited February 22, 2021 by METROMAN
Grammar issue

[13max]

Hi All,

 

I had for the first time my 12 volt battery go dead, or actually the car went to deep sleep mode to protect the battery. 

Events that lead up to my 2013 Cmax energi battery problems was once the onset of colder weather started and when I used heated seats and heater going up hill under load in EV mode the wrench light would come on. When I got home, parked the car usually a couple hours later the battery would be discharged down to 8 v. After a couple of weeks of Jumping with my little pack I had a few days off to do some diagnosis....I found it odd that each time I turned the car off, let it sit, Battery drained to 8 v, used jump pack and restarted, the wrench light disappeared until I used heat or the EV button......at which point the wrench light would reappear. I knew there had to be a parasitic draw somewhere but could not figure it out.......until....I dropped my keys as I walked in front of the car, bent down to pick them up and that is when I heard a whirling noise.....I didnt know what it was but it sounded like when I preheat the car, it was the same noise.....Anyways.....I pulled the fuse for the Heater controls, waited 5 minutes to re-insert and VOILA, that solved my parasitic drain! 

Place your ear just above your front plate and listen for any electrical noise....this may or may not be the issue but its worth a shot!

[plus 3 golfer]

9 hours ago, 13max said:

Hi All,

 

I had for the first time my 12 volt battery go dead, or actually the car went to deep sleep mode to protect the battery. 

Events that lead up to my 2013 Cmax energi battery problems was once the onset of colder weather started and when I used heated seats and heater going up hill under load in EV mode the wrench light would come on. When I got home, parked the car usually a couple hours later the battery would be discharged down to 8 v. After a couple of weeks of Jumping with my little pack I had a few days off to do some diagnosis....I found it odd that each time I turned the car off, let it sit, Battery drained to 8 v, used jump pack and restarted, the wrench light disappeared until I used heat or the EV button......at which point the wrench light would reappear. I knew there had to be a parasitic draw somewhere but could not figure it out.......until....I dropped my keys as I walked in front of the car, bent down to pick them up and that is when I heard a whirling noise.....I didnt know what it was but it sounded like when I preheat the car, it was the same noise.....Anyways.....I pulled the fuse for the Heater controls, waited 5 minutes to re-insert and VOILA, that solved my parasitic drain! 

Place your ear just above your front plate and listen for any electrical noise....this may or may not be the issue but its worth a shot!

 

You are likely hearing the cabin coolant heater pump running which is only used on the Energi model and such is not installed on the Hybrid.  There are many DTCs for this pump and coolant / heater circuit. If it happens again, you need to read the DTCs.  

[13max]

Perfect....Thanks for the reply golfer! Either way, the problem is solved...(touch Wood) and for the past week with temps below 32 F the battery is holding @ 12.10 v

[METROMAN]

Interesting post 13max. I'm certain someone from the Energi crowd will find it helpful. Thanks

[METROMAN]

Talked to them Tuesday morning. They said the battery is bad, and they'd be replacing it under warranty. This will be the third battery installed by them. I was told they found a drain. Said it was the aftermarket backup camera that I had installed about six years ago. When I asked how much of a drain, the service writer said, (are you ready for this? )  1/5000th of an amp. Also said 1/3000th is within specs. Really????  I said I really don't think a drain of 1/5000th of an amp would drain the battery in about a week. He said the tech pulled the fuse for the camera and the drain stopped. He also said the service mgr wanted to make me a happy customer, and would be adjusting my bill. I'm thinking an adjusted bill would be nice, but a proper diagnosis and repair would be much better.

So it's Wednesday night, and I don't know anything more than I did yesterday morning. My better half told me she won't drive the car without a backup camera. Guess I'll need to find that off lease 2018 if they can't figure it out.

[plus 3 golfer]

SA or Tech is confused and they likely can not convert from mA to Amps.

 

From the C-Max Service Manual:

"NOTE: No factory-equipped vehicle should have more than a 50 mA (0.050 amp) draw. Check for current drains on the battery in excess of 50 mA (0.050 amp) with all the electrical accessories off and the vehicle at rest for at least 40 minutes. Current drains can be tested with the following procedure."

 

I believe a typical draw should be around 30 mA on average after all modules go to sleep.  If ones SOC is low from normal battery aging, ones Ah rating might be only 10 Ah.  Even at 10 Ah capacity, a 30 mA drain gives 333 hours until 0% SOC (around 10.5 V being defined as 0% SOC) and we know C-Max will start at 0% SOC.  Again based on your voltage readings and the discharge curve above, I believe your draw was at least 360 mA.  My guess is the SA meant they observed a 500 mA  and in not knowing how to convert to Amps said 1/5000 A drain and in reading his literature on typical drain of around 30 mA was converted to 1/3000 A. 

 

How did you wire the after market backup camera in?  The backup camera is only energized when the accessory relay contact closes and +12V via F31 in the Rear Junction Box (behind left side panel on rear wall powers the back up camera. So, when car is off, there is no power to the backup camera.  My guess either the accessory relay is bad or Tech pulled wrong fuse.  Camera should not drain battery when car is off.