CMAX Grill Cover Testing, 2-5 MPG Gain

[Jus-A-CMax]

hybridbear/ptjones - sorry guys, got no scangauge to report temps. For all intent and purposes, the 2 bar burn up the hills were fine, it was only when it settled on the 3 bar and kept at the 66mph that it went into overheat. That could be on the buy list for 2014. Like I posted before, its either a golf club or these car toys, I prefer the golf clubs.

 

Here is the link: https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=US-395+N&daddr=US-395+N&hl=en&sll=37.452649,-118.580589&sspn=0.118695,0.207367&geocode=FXz6OgIdvf3u-A%3BFbY-PAIdrpLu-A&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=13&t=m&z=13 that you plug into http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/profile_input

 

I suspect it was around mile that it overheated and I dropped back down to 2 bar burn and it was fine. Temp stayed at around 1/2 to 3/4 and within the white bar range limit. Prior to that, it was P&G jus before the steep climb. Normally, I would sit on a 2 bar burn and enjoy the music going up this grade. Coming back the temps were much higher at 50F-60F and I just stick to the 2 bar burn and occassionally 3 bar burn for short periods and keeping an eye on the gauge - Maxine performed fine :)

 

PS This is an awesome grade coming down though....

 

On a side note, I kept the grill covers on this morning, it was around 48-50F this morning in my drive to work, Maxine was behaving weird with the covers on, the warm up cycle would come on intermittently - usually when stopped at the lights for about 5 miles. I can't recall the warm up cycles being on so often with the covers off. I was using surface streets and mostly EV when I could. SOC was high. In contrast, typically, ICE would burn 0.04 gas and be ready without the grill covers. Consequentially, my MPG to work was like 63MPG with 20.4 miles and 0.32 gas burnt. I always scored 70s and gas around 0.24 to 0.28 depening on traffic and light timing.

 

May be its Maxine and the high SOC and cold, she behaves weird like limited 1 bar EV burns (cannot exceed 1 bar otherwise ICE is on and the SOC is almost full) and yet the ICE would still continue to warm up (outside temps were 26F back then). Strange.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Jus-A-CMax

[ptjones]

I'm wondering if Maxine is still learning. Also several members have noticed ICE wants to stay on when cold till it reaches 128degrees which i noticed this morning on MadMax. The Family is back together, YA! :)  :yahoo: :shift:  I'm working on improved Grill Cover to solve potential over heating problem.

 

Paul

[Jus-A-CMax]

I'm wondering if Maxine is still learning. Also several members have noticed ICE wants to stay on when cold till it reaches 128degrees which i noticed this morning on MadMax. The Family is back together, YA! :)  :yahoo: :shift:  I'm working on improved Grill Cover to solve potential over heating problem.

 

Paul

 

I thought about the :airquote: learning curve as well..the route is exactly the same so is this CMax smart enuf to record engine temps with the GPS? I might as well keep it on and see what happens the rest of the week.

 

 

Well :congrats:   Paul...and YES...I AM SHOUING BECAUSE I KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO FEEL TO HAVE THE FAMILY BACK TOGETHER AGAIN.... :rockon: .... :happy feet:.... :victory: ...... :dance:

Edited December 31, 2013 by Jus-A-CMax

[Recumpence]

I have noticed in very cold weather that my engine runs until coolant reaches 108f. At that point the engine shuts off. However, if I am not careful and the engine starts again, it will not shut off until 128f. It is really weird.

 

Matt

[Jus-A-CMax]

I have noticed in very cold weather that my engine runs until coolant reaches 108f. At that point the engine shuts off. However, if I am not careful and the engine starts again, it will not shut off until 128f. It is really weird.

 

Matt

That may be what I am seeing too whilst I was driving around town <= 26F ambient. Darn..I need to get scangauge. Happy New Year Matt :)

[ptjones]

Today tested the cooling system by driving 50mi out and then back on Fwy 50 to 70mph. I started with the whole front end and hood taped up, no air leaks, OT 49*F. It took 25mi to get to 200*F and kept climbing to 230*F up hill and 220*F down hill. Turned heater on and lost 15*F to start and then settled on 5*F. On the the way back I took tape off hood and head lights. This made no noticeable difference in temps. Next I took tape off top grill and saw a 5*F drop in temp. So with both center and bottom grills taped off temps were 215*-225*F after 25mi with 50*F OT on the Fwy.

Paul

Edited January 3, 2014 by ptjones

[Tree63]

I've also noted the 2 stage engine warm up, especially since the FE related TSB upgrade.  Another Forum suggested one was for EV OT and other was ICE OT.

 

With -20C/-2F plus windchill yesterday, the pipe insulation covering part of upper grill kept car cosy though of course FE took huge hit - from 6L/100km to 8L/100km when driving 80% city. 

 

Don't know about an engine hot spot but interior temp seems to go beyond the 21-22C setting that I use.  Anyone else seen this?

 

Also - door handles seem to be temp sensitive - would open only with glove-free hand yesterday.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Tree63

[hybridbear]

I have noticed in very cold weather that my engine runs until coolant reaches 108f. At that point the engine shuts off. However, if I am not careful and the engine starts again, it will not shut off until 128f. It is really weird.

 

Matt

Check out what I've documented for warm up stages here

[Jus-A-CMax]

Good stuff hybridbear!

 

How did you manage to get all the data on the FFH stages?

 

Also, does anyone know if this is the same for our CMaxs? I'd like to PIN the link here if they are the same.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Jus-A-CMax

[ptjones]

I spent the afternoon running errands about 50mi OT 37*F and averaged about 48mpg going 35-55mph with the whole front of car taped up. Top temp was 215*F at 55mph after an half an hour and turned heater on to drop to 210*F. Max intake air temp about 90*F. :)

 

Paul

[frbill]

Here is an article that validates the usefulness of grill covers

 

http://transportevolved.com/2014/01/03/guest-post-how-to-help-your-plug-in-hybrid-warm-this-winter/

[hybridbear]

Good stuff hybridbear!

 

How did you manage to get all the data on the FFH stages?

 

Also, does anyone know if this is the same for our CMaxs? I'd like to PIN the link here if they are the same.

I started with the Prius stages and compared those notes with what I observed in the FFH. I used ET Mode to monitor coolant temps and over time began to see patterns. I have gotten into the habit of turning on ET Mode every time I start the car as I find it helps me to be more efficient when the ICE is cold. With my ScanGauge I don't need the Empower screen to drive efficiently. Thus, I can watch the coolant temp in ET Mode. The coolant will first shut off at 40C when stopped. After that it takes subsequently higher temps to turn off the ICE. The PCM update lowered the temps to allow the ICE to shut off more. My car gradually learned the new temps to shut of the ICE after the PCM update. The first day after the update it wouldn't shut off at 40C consistently, but after about a month of driving it was consistently shutting off at 40C.

 

I imagine the C-Max is the same since it's the same powertrain.

[Jus-A-CMax]

I started with the Prius stages and compared those notes with what I observed in the FFH. I used ET Mode to monitor coolant temps and over time began to see patterns. I have gotten into the habit of turning on ET Mode every time I start the car as I find it helps me to be more efficient when the ICE is cold. With my ScanGauge I don't need the Empower screen to drive efficiently. Thus, I can watch the coolant temp in ET Mode. The coolant will first shut off at 40C when stopped. After that it takes subsequently higher temps to turn off the ICE. The PCM update lowered the temps to allow the ICE to shut off more. My car gradually learned the new temps to shut of the ICE after the PCM update. The first day after the update it wouldn't shut off at 40C consistently, but after about a month of driving it was consistently shutting off at 40C.

 

I imagine the C-Max is the same since it's the same powertrain.

 

Ha...I just created a new thread linking to that EXCELLENT writeup, here in our Tips & Tricks section. Took me a couple of reads to understand the downshift to L and up to D to kick it out of S1a.

 

I have one question though...while I was in the snow, I start Maxine cold, its a heat scorching, BBQ day of 26F outside. I had full SOC. Maxine would kick on ICE immediately and when she did, it all appeared normal. She runs thru the warmup, ICE is on full time and it's not the S1a as I am very careful there not to scorh the batts. It goes to S2 and......however, when the S2 stage came on (EMPOWER EV mode <-see I learnt something today), it LIMITED my EV burn to 1 bar only. Have you seen this yourself, is there something more to this S2 stage? I wished I had a video of this...and its happened more than once, post 13b07 and I NEVER saw this pre-13b07.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Jus-A-CMax

[hybridbear]

Ha...I just created a new thread linking to that EXCELLENT writeup, here in our Tips & Tricks section. Took me a couple of reads to understand the downshift to L and up to D to kick it out of S1a.

 

I have one question though...while I was in the snow, I had full SOC. Maxine would warm up and when she did, it all appeared normal. However, when the S2 stage came on (EMPOWER EV mode <-see I learnt something today), it LIMITED my EV burn to 1 bar only. Have you seen this yourself, is there something more to this S2 stage. I wished I had a video of this...and its happened more than once, post 13b07 and I NEVER saw this pre-13b07.

Thanks, I'm glad it's helpful. I need to revisit the numbers again to verify again because the cold winter weather could affect the way the car behaves. I've also seen the limit in EV to only 1 bar even when SOC is high. It appears that this happens when the heat is on and the coolant is almost too cold to continue making heat. Thus the car limits your EV by kicking the ICE on at lower power demands. I've also seen the 1 bar limit to EV when the HVB is very cold. With our cold weather I've seen the HVB temp be below 0. When the HVB is cold there is a noticeable difference in how it operates. When it's that cold it discharges much more quickly and charges more slowly. Since it discharges more quickly when very cold you cannot get as many amps out of it which limits how many watts the electric motor can provide to the wheels. In the cold weather after the car sits outside the HVB might only warm up about 30 degrees above ambient after an hour of driving. Once the cabin temp heats up the car will turn on the HVB fans to warm up the battery. Once the battery warms up then you can get more than just 1 bar of EV.

Edited January 5, 2014 by hybridbear

[Jus-A-CMax]

Thanks mate, I was getting concerned since Maxine was pulled apart and patched up after the accident and after that, its our 1st outing with her up north in the mountains.

 

This behaviour was not there earlier (pre 13b07), so I was surprised by it.

[bemyax]

Okay, thanks hybridbear. That explains why the one bar limit returned while shopping. So if I'm stingy with the cabin heat, I'm also keeping the HVB cold. We're beginning 64 to 83 hours of subzero temps, similar to the Twin Cities. - sent from balmy Northern Iowa

[grggwlkr]

hybridbear

 

I read the tread on the FFH site.. Good stuff.  My question is, do you need to shift from D to L to D to "trick" the computer, or could you just start off in L? The reason I am asking is I am not proficient at differentiating engine sounds.

[ptjones]

hybridbear, Thanks for the input and you've got me thinking that an oil pan heater might be useful on the HVB to keep it warm as well as the ICE. I wonder what is the optimum operating temp. for HVB? :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

Today it's 47* (heatwave) made 10.5mi trip (7mi hwy 70mph) and got 47.3mpg and came back city streets (45-55mph) and got 53.7mpg with max WT184*F and front of car completely carpet taped up. Plan to install oil pan heater tonight in time for sub freezing temps for the next few days. I will see how much difference it makes and let you know. :)

 

Paul

[fbov]

Now that the holidays are over, I need to get back to interrogating the car... It'll take me some time to understand hybridbear's analysis, especially since I have access to the same data and can replicate the results.

 

I've seen 1-bar EV limit ever since the PCM update, and agree that it's there just to bring ICE back on sooner, but Saturday I got a 1/2 bar EV limit despite very high SOC. Granted, the low temperature that morning had been -4F, and the back of the car had seen no sun, but it was in the 20's when it occurred, and I'd been driving, so the ICE wasn't cold.

 

Thoughts? where might this fit?

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

Maybe it was the temp of the HVB was to cold.

 

This morning I used oil pad heater with 50's*F garage Temp and 65*F WT and OT of 27*F. My drive to work is 2.4mi a little uphill and got 35.4mpg and without it I would gotten around 33mpg.  The obvious  difference was I got to 128* in 1.2Mi and without it I probably wouldn't have made it.

 

At lunch time I did my normal  loop into town 4.2mi., out to restaurant 4.6mi. and then back via Fwy 6.2mi. and I averaged for the whole trip with stops, 43.5mpg and OT of 27*F. I forgot to look at WT, darn! :drop:  I did get 46.1mpg on Fwy leg and 52.3mpg on second leg and I was using the heater for both legs, didn't want the wife suffer.  :)

 

Paul

Edited January 6, 2014 by ptjones

[Jus-A-CMax]

Now that the holidays are over, I need to get back to interrogating the car... It'll take me some time to understand hybridbear's analysis, especially since I have access to the same data and can replicate the results.

 

I've seen 1-bar EV limit ever since the PCM update, and agree that it's there just to bring ICE back on sooner, but Saturday I got a 1/2 bar EV limit despite very high SOC. Granted, the low temperature that morning had been -4F, and the back of the car had seen no sun, but it was in the 20's when it occurred, and I'd been driving, so the ICE wasn't cold.

 

Thoughts? where might this fit?

 

HAve fun,

Frank

 

I PMed Ashley on your issue to see if the Engineers can have an input. 1/2 bar is a concern, 1 bar I can live with. We shall see. Frank, after the warmup did this 1/2 bar EV limit go away? My 1 bar goes away after warm up and when the batts drop to 1/2.

[ptjones]

This morning had oil pan heater on for about 1 1/2hr , garage temp 48*F,WT 57*F, OT 12*F took 1 1/2mi to get to 128*F and got 32.8mpg with little higher HVB SOC than  when I started. Not bad for conditions.

 

Went to lunch with 18*F OT,75*F WT, 9mi. with one stop and sat in the drivethur for 10min. got back with 49mpg average and WT 175*F, I would say this is very good results with these conditions. :happy feet: :)

 

Paul

[fbov]

1) block heater should be standard... what was your temp this morning, Paul? 12F sounds warm... and how did you get a block heater? In Atlanta???

 

2) the 1/2 bar EV was temporary. It returned to the normal 2-bar warm, 1 bar tepid, 0 bar cold (no EV) behavior. I, too, suspected a cold battery, but am I the only l one to see it? -2F this AM and no repeat, but I got right on the highway without EVing.

 

I've got WT on MyView, and you can see the correlation between 0-, 1- and 2-bar EV and indicator location. Got to remember Test Mode...

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

1) block heater should be standard... what was your temp this morning, Paul? 12F sounds warm... and how did you get a block heater? In Atlanta???

 

2) the 1/2 bar EV was temporary. It returned to the normal 2-bar warm, 1 bar tepid, 0 bar cold (no EV) behavior. I, too, suspected a cold battery, but am I the only l one to see it? -2F this AM and no repeat, but I got right on the highway without EVing.

 

I've got WT on MyView, and you can see the correlation between 0-, 1- and 2-bar EV and indicator location. Got to remember Test Mode...

 

HAve fun,

Frank

I'm not monitoring HVB temps and I got oil pan heater from NAPA 150 Watts/120V and stuck it on bottom of oil pan. :)

 

Paul