salman

three comments 1) Mr Debi's description of the California Lemon Law is wrong. Claims are not restricted to the first year and the number of repair attempts required in non-life-threatening cases is generally at least 4. 2) Don't believe me or anyone else. Look up your state's lemon law yourself. Here is the california department of consumer affairs page about the California law: http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon 3) BullDurham's advice about the battery charger stuff is absolutely correct. If you have dead 12 volt problems, get the car towed to the dealer whenever possible and either have the dealer fix the problem or, after enough attempts fail, consider getting a buy back or replacement. (it seems to me the problem can be fixed. It is about 7 months since my current CMax has had a problem. Details on the thread from April and May 2014). But if anyone would rather use battery chargers & jumpers, that's up to you.

Yes, to the wiring harness at the rear hatch, regarding a chaffing problem. I'm surprised this TSB is not about water intrusion in connectors under the front hood, since the SSM notice from early summer or late spring told service departments that a TSB would be out in 3rd quarter about the water intrusion problem.

I would strongly suggest asking the service rep for a detailed description of everything they checked in looking for a power draw and also a description of what the TSB 14-0155 is about (someone will eventually get the TSB details and post them here). In particular, make sure the service techs checked electrical connectors as noted in earlier TSBs and also checked the coolant pump and the ground connection on the Body Control Module (BCM). Last, make sure they contacted the Ford engineers at the Tech Hot Line. If they did not do all those things then they did not do their job, and should do all those things. If they won't, take your car to a different dealer service department (warranty is good at all Ford dealers)

Yes, if you read through the long threads you will find that all the dead 12 volt cases have happened after the car has been parked for many hours, typically overnight, which usually happens to be at home. I cannot think of a single case that happened after being parked for just an hour or two. The take-away from this is that there is a power drain that depletes the battery over several hours, hence a drain that is not too fast (speed of drain is also relevant to the reserve capacity of the battery, which is smaller in the CMax than in standard gas engine cars).

pjurek please explain the details of the settlement in your case. It sounds like ford paid you compensation for all of your time and expenses in dealing with the car. I assume they must have also agreed to buy back your car. And I assume that Ford must be paying your lawyer's bill, which I can only guess must be around $10,000.

The long discussion about the practical difficulty of round-the-clock and weeks-long monitoring of intermittent current draws and testing to find the location of the current draw should be enough to explain why this has been a difficult problem for Ford to track down. Also think about the problems that Ford's recent TSBs and SSM's have described: All the problems with electrical connectors are problems that can be visually checked by opening the connectors and seeing if there has been water intrusion. The coolant pump connectors are like, plus the coolant pump can be heard. Ford mechanics have heard the pump running when it should have been off, and they have seen fouled connectors. Tracing an intermittent parasitic draw is not easy, and is especially devilish if the activated component is not obvious in some way. If it was easy, Ford would have figured it out a year ago. There is no doubt they have been working on it. Posts on the forum tell the story of the engineers working to diagnose re-purchased cars and also working on cars out on the road under warranty, Some of the parts being changed under warranty are not cheap. All of this is important for understanding the magnitude of the problem: 1) the 12 volt syndrome makes a non-trivial minority of CMaxs inoperable on a random basis, 2) the problem is not easy to troubleshoot, 3) Ford has made lemon law buy backs on a bunch of 12 volt cases reported here on the forum and mostly done so without a fight.

The first comment from your dealer matches what has been reported on the forum and also matches what I have seen: batteries were replaced because they had been discharged, and also as a shot in the dark in early 2013 to try to fix the 12 volt problem. The second comment, which I think you are also attributing to the dealer is about batteries that are testing bad. There just are not many reports on this forum about batteries testing bad. Very few. far fewer than reports of dead 12 volt systems (ie drained batteries). I don't see any evidence in reports on the forum that points to a bad batch of batteries.Ford has not issued a TSB about a problem with the CMax battery, only TSBs that address the charging routines and systems that do not shut down (including the faulty connectors that cause systems to awaken or stay awake). I still see no evidence pointing to a battery problem. There is considerable evidence of problems with bad connectors and bad connections (main harness, coolant pump, gear shifter, & BCM module), and evidence that when these things are identified and fixed the dead 12 volt syndrome seems not to re-occur . . . . although only time will tell if these are full and permanent fixes. There is also lots of evidence that some dealer service departments are better than others. Some service departments dive into the problem, keep abreast of the TSBs, and contact the Ford Tech Hotline to discuss the problem with an engineer. Other service departments say that they see no problem and have never heard of 12 volt problems and they won't look for the problem or contact Ford engineers. Bad departments tell the owner it is their fault for outrageous reasons. . Owners on this forum have been told they don't drive the car enough, that there is a minimum number of miles per day or week that must be driven, and other total BS. My original dealer's service manager knew nothing about hybrids, did not know there was a step down converter, would not call Ford's hot line, and did nothing to try to fix the problem. They even lied to me about changing the battery. In Feb or March 2013 I switched to a different dealer service department and they are great.

News to me that a lot of batteries have been bad. I don't think I've heard that before, except as speculation about the cause of the dead 12 volt syndrome in November 2012 through February 2013. That was proven not to be the case, so far as I can tell. It is true that many cars suffering dead 12 volt syndrome have had their batteries changed. That was done for two reasons: first, in the early days, as a blind shot at solving the problem, and second because a battery's ability to take a full charge is diminished when it is run down to a very low charge. The batteries were not changed because of a bad batch of batteries. Bad connections (on the BCM or any electrical connector) can cause a system to activate or stay active when it is supposed to be off.That seems to be the one thing that has been a successful repair so far. Two caveats: 1) so far. Only more time will tell if this has been a real fix, and 2) it can't be a repair until the bad connection is found, and in your case it seems it has not yet been found. Third caveat: yes, in your case it could turn out to be a problem with something other than a connector. If that is ever verified and repaired, please let us all know, for it would be new information.

traveler you might have them check the BCM module for proper connection, esp the ground connection

Yes, there was a TSB about updating the charging routine software to charge more thoroughly. That TSB was from winter 2013, or maybe spring 2013. To the best of my knowledge no dead 12 volt problems were solved by this TSB. The story with the infotainment screen is similar. One of the early TSBs addressed this, but it turned out not to solve anyone's dead 12 volt problem, to the best of my knowledge. FWIW, I've tried to track this issue closely because my first CMAX, purchased in December 2012, started having dead 12 volts days after purchase. I initiated a buy back request in October 2013 and got a new 2014 in March 2014, when a new model identical to my 2013 became available. Then had two dead 12 volt episodes on the 2014. If you know of a case in which the problem was solved by the charge routine update and/or the infotainment update, please post details.

There is pretty clear evidence that the 12 volt problems in the CMax are not due to a problem with the charging routine nor to a problem with the batteries. There is positive evidence that there are problems with electrical connectors (on examination they show water and corrosion), and circumstantial evidence that repairing the connections ends the 12 volt problems (5 months trouble free for me, but time will tell). On the other hand, my Honda Accord has battery problems. I've had to change the battery four times!!! Of course, it is a 1995, but the rest of it seems like it will last forever. Obviously made by people who did not understand the fundamental value of planned obsolescence.

The car most similar to a CMax is a Prius V. It is a little bigger and does not accelerate or maneuver as well as a CMax, but it gets better MPG and the Prius has proven reliability. If you read back in the forum, you will see that when I started the bu back case for my 2013 CMax I was at first certain I would not do a replacement. I thougth I would buy a Prius V. Almost did, but then decided to take my chances with a CMax again because I like driving it and I had found a good dealer service department. Then my new 2014 had two dead 12 volt episodes! Remember, this was after the lemon law buy back for my 2013. Dealer service was great and immediately contact Ford engineers about the dead 12 volt in the 2014. We had already been around the block 7 or 8 times with the 2013 and developed a good relationship. After the second 2014 dead 12 volt episode the coolant pump was changed (May 2014) and no problems since. Would I do it all over again. No. Does every CMAX have dead 12 volt episodes? No, but a non-trivial minority of them do, and the cause seems to be the design of the electrical connectors. I would wait for the fix to be fully proven before buying a CMax. But that's just me. I don't care to tell others what to do. I can only say what I think I would do.

The 2013 and 2014 are essentially the same car, esp when it comes to the things that have contributed to the dead 12 volt problems: same lectronics systems, same wiring connectors, same coolant pump. My 2013 had problems, my 2014 had problems, and when the 2014 was serviced - replacing connectors on the main wiring harness and thn replacing the coolant pump because of its connectors - those repairs were made because the issues had been identified on other CMaxs, both 2013 and 2014. That is what the engineers on the hotline told the service manager and mechanic servicing my car. If the engineer had not encountered the problems before, he would not have recommended those repairs on my car. I have not had a problem with the battery since the pump was replaced in May. If it turns out that bad connectors are the cause (or main main cause) of the dead 12 volt problem, then Ford should have the problem fixed for the 2015. Water tight electrical connectors are (ahem) a mature technology. But time will tell if 1) the connectors are the main culprit, and 2) if Ford fixes them for the 2015 model. Insofar as the bad connectors are concerned, rain, sleet, snow, and car washes can gget water into the connections. The problem is not driving in the rain. The problem is the connectors are not water tight. I looked into reports of battery problems with other hybrids last year. Yes, some priuses have had dead 12 volts after sitting unused for several weeks (main cause is the OEM battery is small and has a low reserve rating, as compared to standard sized batteries. Optima makes a more robust after market battery for the Prius). But I saw nothing with any car that is comparable to the problem with the CMaxes At first, in January 2013, I thought maybe the small size of the CMax battery could be the cause, but that is water under the bridge. It is not the cause. It seems like bad connectors are the main cause. A bigger battery would get drained, too. Would I buy a CMax today? No, I would wait until the 12 volt problem is definitively fixed, which should be for 2015. Has Ford been trying to solve the problem? Absolutely. Has Ford taken responsibility for the problem by buying back or replacing cars when the lemon law is properly invoked? Yes, and without a fight in almost all cases described on the forum. I think Ford is a good company and the CMax is a great idea, but with a significant bug that might be close to being fixed. Time will tell.

most posters here have pursued buy backs on their own, without a lawyer. ford's customer service dept will initiate a buy back review if you ask them. They take basic information over the phone, then send you a packet with forms to fill out, plus you send them a letter narrating the case. Ford does not ask for it, but it is a good idea to send copies of all service documents and copies of all correspondence documenting the problems. buy backs take longer than car exchanges, and my case took longer becuase I waited for the new 2014 models, which did not hit the streets until the end of February. I started my case in late October, I think, and got approval for the buy back/exchange in January - so my case also had a delay from the winter holidays, and then another delay when severe cold weather froze everything in Michigan. Then there were some paperwork screw-ups by the company to which Ford outsources its buy back cases. It may prove the case that BBB is faster, but I would not immediately assume that is why Ford or any manufacturer would mention BBB in its owner manuals.

Now that is pretty interesting. My reaction against BBB was based on thinking things would stall and drag out with the final repair attempt ploy. But once Bull Durham said "no," it seems Ford immediately agreed to do the buy back. Let's see how long the rest of the process takes. In my case, Ford agreed to do the buy back within about two months, I think, but then paperwork dragged out, and I also waited for the 2014 model, and they dragged out making one available. Bull Durham's experience is quicker so far.

I would advise against your checking the connectors mainly because you have an active warranty case and you may still be able to make a lemon law claim. My thinking is that you want your case (warranty or lemon law) to be flawlessly strong. Messing with anything that you don't ordinarily touch or use in driving or routine driver performed service could be used by Ford if they fight against you. Conversely, the stronger and cleaner your case is, the more likely Ford will respond positively to any reasonable request or demand you might make. Checking the connectors would not be hard. you'd need to be able to read the wiring diagram to locate the connectors, then open them, check them, and close them again. Problem is if a piece of plastic breaks while you are doing it, Or if there is a problem later with water intrusion and Ford says it is your fault. My suggestions are: 1) you need to know exactly where you stand in relation to lemon law rights, and time is of the essence, so nail that down right away. If you can still make a lemon law claim, you'll need to decide whether to do it. 2) you still have warranty rights. I think you have three possible courses of action within this realm: A) write to Ford & the dealer and then go back to the dealer to have them check the electrical connectors and do anything else required to figure out what went wrong with your car, B) decide that the dealer is subpar because they should have checked the connectors and done other things to figure out the problem, and maybe they did jump the car to start it, and in this case you should start going to a different dealer for service, or C) wait until the next episode and then be firm in pursuing A or B.

I am in california, too, and researched the lemon law process deeply before i demanded that Ford buy back or replace my car. Nowhere did i see Ford write that a buy back request must or should go through BBB. I do not even recall seeing BBB mentioned as an alternative. It would be illegal for Ford to say BBB must be used, since the state's law says otherwise. I just initiated the case directly with Ford all on my own - no lawyers, no court case, just a demand that Ford repurchase or replace the car. And 6 months later I had a new car as a replacement, at no monetary cost to me. My gut feeling is that BBB's program is not likely to be helpful in most cases. In most cases discussed on these threads the argument for a lemon law buy back has been very strong, and few if any of the posters here have had to go to court. I would not go to court without a lawyer, but going to couirt generally has not been necessary in any of the cases written up here. Of course, if you hire a lawyer and win (in court or outside of court), Ford stands to be responsible for the attorney fees. That is why Ford actually does process lemon law cases on their own. It takes a few months, but when the case is strong they seem to have a good track record of buying back the cars. There are bureaucratic foul-ups, but so far not much fighting against doing a buy back.

It took me approx October 2013 to March 2014, so about 5 to 6 months for me, lengthened because I wanted to wait for a 2014 model which came out later than usual. Your case was finished about 3 to 4 months.

The problem with the electrical connectors is that water and/or corrosion caused by water leads to shorts and a failure of systems to shut off, which drains the battery after the car is turned off. It is not a problem of connections being loose (and then possibly being jarred back into connection by the tow truck). If your car started after being towed to the dealer and started without being jumped or charged, then one of two things happened: either 1) your car was not dead at your house and maybe you did not check fully to see if nothing electrical would work (not doubting or challenging you, just laying out the logical possibilities) OR 2) this was not a dead 12 volt episode which happen when the battery is drained while the car is shut off, but a different problem of kind not previously reported on these threads. Of course a third possibility is that the dealer did jump start the care and they fibbed to you about it. If you are sure the car was totally dead (no elctronic lock function, no lights, wouldn't start, nothing, dead, no juice, zip) AND if you have any doubts about the dealer service being sub-par, then any next episode of trouble should be brought to a different dealer. . . . unless you are already at the lemon law buy back stage. It seems odd to me that the dealer will not check the electrical connectors. Checking them is quick: you unplug the connectors and look to see if they are dry and clean. If you have had two or more dead 12 volt episodes I think the dealer should check the connectors without question. They should really check the connectors on the first dead 12 volt episode since the SSM has been out for many months at this point. I might be wrong about this, but to my mind a dealer service department that won't check the electrical connectors (as the SSM instructs) is not a good service department.

good karma points for that, Wab. That is the list of connectors to check on the main wiring harness. Service techs should also check connectors on the coolant pump. (if this stuff is checked on all dead 12 volt cases it will either solve the problem or it will tell us that there is another cause that has not yet been identified. Please post results. Post information about what was checked, what was found, and then updates on whether the dead 12 volt problem re-occurs. It is information we all need.)

somewhere on this thread there is a TSB that lists several (6, I think) connectors on the main wiring harness. They should check those connectors and they should check the connectors on the coolant pump. your report of the car being totally dead and then, according to the dealer, starting without being jumped or charged is unique. Make sure the dealer did not jump or charge your battery. And double check your own memory: was the car totally dead (nothing electronic worked, from door locks to radio to engine)? All the dead 12 volt cases have always started after being jumped or charged, and all would then continue to start for a while after that for days, weeks, even months until suddenly there would be another dead 12 volt episode. Could the dealer be saying that they jumped the car and it started, so they think they see nothing wrong???? of course it could be that your car has a different and unique problem that is not a dead 12 volt problem.

BullDurham You seem to be on solid ground. If I were in your shoes, I would go forward to arbitration ASAP and I would also send a letter directly to Ford Corporate if there is time. I agree with you that Ford can't be faulted for asking for another crack at fixing the car, and i agree with you that once you say no they should immediately agree to make the buy back rather than drag through arbitration. Ford's offer to send an engineer to see the car should have happened during the 4th repair attempt. They should not have waited until you filed a lemon law demand. At least the dealer and Ford Corporate were honest enough to tell you that they had not found the cause of the problem during the final 2 week long stay in the shop.

If you have had a dead 12 volt episode and your service dept will not check your electrical connectors for water intrusion, then you should go to a different dealer for service. And they won't check them, then write a letter to Ford Customer Service. Water intrusion in connectors is a problem that is recognized and documented by Ford. The dealerships are franchised, as are the service departments. And some mechanics and service managers are better than others. Some are terrible. Do not take no for an answer if you have had a dead 12 volt episode. As for opening the connectors and looking yourself: on the one hand, if you see water or corrosion, then you know there is a problem. On the other hand, I would not be inclined to open the connectors because I would be concerned that Ford might claim the connecotrs leaked only because you messed with them. And, yes, changing the coolant pump seems so far to have solved the dead 12 volt problem on my car. Ford has an SSM advising dealerships that there is a problem the pump's connectors and that they are working on a fix, by which I think they mean a redesign of the part. My car had a new pump installed (old design, I believe it must be) which they water proofed by packing the connectors with dielectric grease.

To Bull Durham The NC Lemon Law does not seem to give the manufacturer an additional whack at fixing the car. According to the NC Dept of Justice, the rule is 4 or more repair attempts, OR 20 or more days in the shop in ne 12 month period. The law does require that you notify the company in writing and give them up to but no more than 15 days to fix the problem - in my reading that does not imply Ford has a right to last whack at fixing the car, but read up on commentary in your state to be sure. The lemon law is here: http://www.ncdoj.gov/consumer/automobiles/lemon-law.aspx I tried to look at the BBB website for NC, but it does not load clearly on my IPad, so I cannot see whether BBB mandates an extra repair attempt. I could only see half of the BBB text. It did not look like there was anything there about an extra repair attempt, but I could not read the document properly on my screen. Please make sure you've read all the rules carefully, both from the State and the BBB program. I guess you elected to go the BBB route rather than approach Ford directly yourself. I hope you did not make the matter more difficult for yourself by that choice. Knowing all the rules will give you the answer to that. If you have full documentation of all of your service visits and if you have had written communication with Ford, then I think you should be able to put together a powerful case. One element of the NC Lemon Law is that the problem with the car must significantly detract from the use value or safety of the car. In your case, not only is a car that repeatedly won't start a clearly significant impingement on the car's usefulness, but you also have a powerfully compelling human story to tell: you need reliable transport for cancer treatments. If you have full documentation, then, if I were in your shoes, I think I would write a letter to Ford and send it to them directly by fax and certified mail. I'd do this while the BBB rocess continues. I'd write up the case for buy back and lead with the full significance of tha car's unreliability, which includes your need to be on time for urgent medical treatments. Basically, you'd be telling Ford that they are risking some very bad publicity and maybe, if the law allows it, damages. The BBB arbitrator will almost certainly be moved by your story. And if you hire a lawyer & win, then Ford would be stuck with your legal costs (in most and possibly all States - check this for NC) The big IF in all of this is that you need to know the law and the BBB rules inside-out, and you need all your documents to be complete and well organized (send copies of the documents with your letter to Ford, if you write to them). My experience of the buy back process was that Ford did not fight it, and I did it directly with Ford. Maybe choosing the BBB program makes Ford think they have more wiggle room. Maybe there is a difference between NC and California that makes Ford less cooperative in NC. Maybe it was just the individual at Ford who got your case that made Ford's response different. Look for clues to an answer for this difference, if there are any clues. Best of luck with you health and with Ford and BBB.

I would recommend being very specific with the service manager about checking electrical connectors and the coolant pump. The connector numbers are posted in the thread and there is already a SSM message out from Ford about the coolant pump. My advice is that you should demand that they check these things and that they contact engineers on Ford's hotline and that they show you the communication (it is an e-mail-like system). If they won't do that, go to a different dealer for service. Also, double check the lemon law. Most cover a new car for 2 years, I think.