salman

Hybrid Dude Ordinary tow trucks can use a wheel lift. The tow truck hoists up one end of the car and the other pair of wheels are jacked up of the ground by the wheel lift, which is a jack on wheels. The car stays in park. When towed it rolls on the wheel lift's wheels. Even if the dealer jumps the car to read trouble codes from the computer there are still reasons to tow it while dead, especially if the dealer and/or Ford are not yet doing everything they need to do to fix it. Towing while dead proves beyond a shadow of doubt there is something wrong. Has your dealer service checked the electrical connectors and the coolant pump?

Do you know what they checked, tested, and attempted to repair/change? Do you know whether they checked the connectors, and then packed them with grease? Did they change the coolant pump? How do they know they have not solved the problem? The only way to know is by real world testing, which means waiting to see if the dead 12 volt problem happens again. Did your shop try some fix and then found the 12 volt battery dead the next day? If you have posted all these details earlier or elsewhere, then i apologize for not being up to date on recent weeks of posting.

Kelleytoons The last TSB on the matter (unless there has been a new one I have missed) promised another TSB this summer that would address the connector on the coolant pump. In fact Ford is changing the coolant on some cars with 12 volt problems. They did on mine in April, and it seems to have worked. And they did it on mine because they had already been doing it on others. My car was not the first. The engineers suggested my service department should change the pump because they had found it worked on other cars. Also, a key point about the electrical connector problems is that they can and have been positively identified as problems. Visual inspection has shown that water was fouling and corroding the contacts in the connection. Unlike Fords early focus on the infotainment module back in early 2013 (which was a shot in the dark), the electrical connector repairs/replacements is addressing a definite real problem. The connectors are supposed to be water tight. There have also been others who have been told by their service department that Ford does not yet have a remedy for the coolant pump connector - this demonstrates that individual service departments are different, and so too are the many individual engineers who answer Ford's hotline for service techs. Until the new TSB comes out there will not be universal for all Ford engineers and techs to follow, and even then at the service department end there will be some departments that check for the TSBs, and others will make excuses and be lazy. Last, it is possible that there might be more causes of the 12 volt episodes beyond just the bad electrical connectors. But, so far, we don't have evidence of that (If anyone has had connectors checked and changed and packed with water-proofing grease and has had the coolant pump changed AND STILL HAD ANOTHER DEAD BATTERY EPISODE AFTER THAT, then please let us all know).

There is a lot of information about this on the TSB/Maintanence threads about the 12 volt problems: 1) 2014 models have had the problem, too (direct personal evidence, details posted on the other threads) 2) I think there is little or no evidence that the problem has any relation to MFT or no MFT. 3) There is abundant evidence the problem has mostly and mainly been caused by water intrusion in electrical connectors, on the main wiring harness and the coolant pump. The evidence is 1) connectors have been found to be fouled with water and corrosion, 2) there is direct evidence of the coolant pump continuing to run when it should be off, 3) there is some evidence from real world testing that seems to indicate that changing these bad connectors has prevent recurrence of the dead 12 volt problem - in my case no dead 12 volts since April. 4) My advice is to read all the threads, collect all the TSB numbers and all the information about what Ford engineers have told service departments to do, and then tell your service department to contact Ford engineers on the hot line and do all those things. If your service department won't do that, then go to a different Ford dealer for service. The warranty is good at all Ford dealer service departments, and some are better than others.

I think I have localized the creaking to the fuzzy weatherstripping in the window channel, not the rubber weather seals for the door. Silicone would work on the rubber seals. On the fuzzy channel weatherstripping for the window I've got to think it would create a mess and would not work.

this problem started in my car about 1 month ago, loudest at the driver's door. I have isolated the problem. It most probably has something to do with the weatherstripping at the top of the window, as others have reported. I was able to isolate the problem by testing for the noise with the window slightly open. Other posters report this, too. By slightly open I mean the barest fraction of an inch, which can be done by tapping the window control as lightly as possible so that the window just barely moves. Opening the tiniest gap at the top of the window makes the creaking cease. At high speed on the highway there would be a whistle, but at 10-30 MPH in town there is no whistle and one can tell the creaking is not happening. Closing the window all the way makes the creaking return. It is the contact between the window and the weatherstripping inside the top channel that is the source location of the noise. At my next service & recall appointment i will ask the dealer service department about the noise problem. When I have a chance I might test what happens with a thin piece of felt or perhaps T-shirt fabric temporarily layered on top of the weatherstripping (easily put in place, easily removed if no adhesives are used - just a test for a possible band-aid fix). It is possible that removing and re-installing the weatherstripping might help or might reveal another clue. It would be easy to do, but I'd rather have the dealer do it just in case the weatherstripping is flimsy and rips - then they would need to replace it. Costs $100 plus retail, I think.

I own an SE, so I was not considering the push button ignition. On the SE all electronics are supposed to time out and shut down, including the headlights. The only way to drain the 12 volt battery by driver error would be to leave the key in the car turned to the "accessory" setting and leave the radio or lights on. Otherwise 12 volt drainage down to dead is not supposed to happen. With the SEL, I'd think that if you left the car on it run would it run off of the LiOn battery and then when that runs low it would start the gas engine, run off gas until the LiOn is recharged, then run off the LiOn, etc, until you ran out of gas. At what point would the 12 volt battery become drained? No automatic shut-off at all??? You parked the car in your garage? No exhaust fumes? Surely the gas engine would have kicked on when the LiOn went low......

Tom Anyone reading this forum who has one dead 12 volt episode should have their dealer check all TSBs, perform all updates, and check all of the indicated electrical connectors for water intrusion. There are TSBs for connectors on the main harness and also for the coolant pump (the coolant pump notice says there will be an updated notice this summer). Anyone who has three or more dead 12 volt episodes should look up their State's Lemon Law and should at least start to think about when they might want to ask for a refund or replacement. The specifics depend upon the operative State law, the individual case, and the decision of the owner. I agree with Kostby for the most part. Keep good records of every incident. Bring every dead 12 volt case to the dealer, towed by Ford Roadside Assistance if possible. And don't waste your time with a dealer service department that does not take the problem seriously or blames the driver or will not perform service as per Ford's own TSBs. The warranty is good at all Ford dealerships. No need to stick with poor service just because you bought the car at that dealer.

I have not had a dead battery episode since my coolant pump was changed in April. In my opinion, there is a high probability that leaking electrical connectors are the primary cause of the 12 volt problems. I say that because: 1) there has been positive evidence of electrical connectors fouled by water intrusion, at the coolant pump and also on the main wiring harness. The evidence is that the mechanics find water and/or corrosion inside the connectors. And, 2) so far the replacement of connectors seems to have worked for me and apparently some others. So far I do not think there has been a case of a CMax with a replaced coolant pump that has had another dead 12 volt episode. The connectors are obviously defectively designed and/or manufactured. The immediate repair that Ford can make is to replace the connectors and, when installing the new ones, pack the connectors with dielectric grease to make them water tight. With the coolant pump the entire pump needs to be replaced because the connector is built into the pump. Any dealership that refuses to check the connectors for water intrusion is not doing their job and the owner should go to a different dealership if there is a dead 12 volt problem.

Bill-N thanks for posting this notice from Oasis. New readers should know that this information is available to all dealers who bother to look up 12 volt problems on their computers. My car had its coolant pump and gear shifter replaced in mid-April. i wrote it up here in post 1187 on April 18. Evidence of water intrusion was found in the coolant pump's electrical connectors. They changed the shifter, too, on Ford engineering's recommendations because of my cursed repair history with the 12 volt problems. From April 18 through today I have had no problems. No rain or car washes to give it a good test, so my fingers are still crossed. Anyone who takes their car to a dealer who does not perform the tests and fixes prescribed on Ford's own database should go to a different dealer. Likewise, the dealer should directly contact the engineering hot line. Dealer service departments that do not do this do not deserve your business, and your warranty is valid at all Ford dealerships. You do not have to go back to sub-par service departments. May 28 2014 4975 -2013-2014 C-MAX, Fusion Hybrid and MKZ Hybrid – Discharged 12-Volt Battery Some 2013-2014 CMAX, Fusion Hybrid and MKZ Hybrid vehicles may experience an issue related to discharge of the 12-volt battery. This condition is currently being investigated by engineering. Detailed service information should be available 3rd Quarter 2014. In the interim, inspect the water pump connectors for damage, water and/or corrosion in C1812 and/or thewater pump connector. Also observe if the water pump continues to run for longer than 2 minutes after the vehicle has been shut off. Only replace the water pump if damage, water intrusion, corrosion or an operational fault is found. Monitor OASIS for updates and continue to submit Global Concern Reports.

Mikeg's service department seems on the ball. I'm not so sure that Maxy's is. Had they called into the hotline they would have been advised to check electrical connectors, look at and maybe replace the coolant pump, and same with the shift lever. And they would not have said that reprogramming the entertainment display module will fix the problem, but it has not had a good track record of fixing the problem Some service departments are better than others. Some, maybe many, will do a better job if you bring them information, such as TSB numbers and information about other repairs being done for the same problem on other cars. Ask them if they have called the service tech hotline. If they haven't called (well, it's is actually e-mail) and won't contact the hot line, then you know you need to take your car to a different service department

Administrative support could be helpful if your dealer service department is not authorizing a rental, if it is dismissing the 12 volt issue or not calling the engineer hotline, and it is also helpful to establish a paper trail with Ford Corporate that you would refer to in the event of a buy back case. There is no definitive fix yet. That is obvious. The latest targets (water pump, shifter lever) have just been tried. The only way to find out if they solve the problem is testing over extended time to see if there is a re-occurrence. The problem is not getting a system to work. If that were the problem, results would be instant (Eureka! It works now! Therefore we know the problem is fixed.) Instead, this is like a durability problem. The success of a fix can only be known after the elapse of a substantial period of time to see if there is a re-occurrence. The trouble shooting is being done both by engineers in Michigan and field service engineers and by mechanics at the dealerships. Information is getting shared in multiple directions (though sometimes it doesn't get shared as it should because a dealer service department is sub-par or an engineer on the hotlines is sub-pars - some are better than others, and it can take time for information about the latest trouble shooting to be widely shared, as we see here on this forum). It helps to bring your car to a good service department not only because they might play a role in finding a fix, but also because the repair record from a good service department will make a buy back case easier if it comes to that. I asked the regional Customer Service Rep if I could please speak directly with one of the engineers working trouble shooting the problem. She said that was impossible, but transferred me to her supervisor who said he would at least ask. But then he became suspicious and mischievous, and asked me if I was trying to repair the car myself . . . .. NO!!!!! that may possibly invalidate the warranty, and that is the last thing I would want to risk - I made sure that was clear to the supervisor. They are supposed to call me back. I think it is unlikely that a contact with an engineer will be arranged.

I think she is a conduit to connect you to the regional customer service managers who work for Ford Corporate. They open a case file, can help to authorize rental cars if a dealer is not doing that, and maybe in the case of a poor service department they can coax the service manager into talking with the Ford hotline. My own opinion is that if you think the service department is subpar, then you should switch to a different service department (as easy as just taking your car to a different dealer's service department next time there is a problem - no arrangements necessary). The main reason to establish a case file with customer service is to have it for your own records and to be able to show that you have taken all reasonable steps to give Ford a full shot at fixing the car.

it is pretty clearly established that the 12 volt system problems are the result of an electronic system (or systems) in the car that come alive when the car is shut down. When the car sits long enough, it allows the drain to draw down the battery to the point at which it cannot unlock the doors or power up any other systems. The cause for the power drain might be bad ground connections, bad or corrupted electrical connections, faulty switches, and/or problems with software or system modules.All of these have seemed to be culprits in one or more cases. Everything electronic system in the car is a potential culprit. Conversely, it is also pretty clear that the problems reported here are not the result of batteries that don't take or hold charges, nor the result of problems with the step-down converter that charges the 12 volt battery from the LiOn battery. Yes, someone might one day have a bad battery that needs replacing, but that is definitively not the cause of the rash of 12 volt problems reported here (and, yes, after serial 12 volt problems it would be wise to replace the battery, but this has to be distinguished from the initial cause of the problem). Nor are the problems caused by driving habits. Ford would not have bought back any cars or spent $thousands attempting warranty repairs if the problems were due to bad driving habits. To sum it up: there seems to be an engineering and/or part or software design problem or problems in the CMax that cause the 12 volt system problems. Ford has not yet definitively solved the problem. Ford is clearly trying to solve the problem. Ford corporate HQ and most dealers are being very good about the problem (if you have dealer who tells you it is your fault or not a real problem, switch to another dealer for service. You don't need to take the car where you bought it). And Ford has bought back several CMaxs already without fighting over it.

more info on the water pump and shifter: the water pump is electronic.The problem that has been found on some water pumps is that the electrical connector on the pump sometimes allows water into the connection. On my car, when they pulled the pump there was evidence of water intrusion in the electrical connector. The pump connector has been redesigned to stay water tight. the shifter problem is that when the shift lever is put into park sometimes an electrical connection is not shut down, and that may keep the instrument panel (or other instrumentation) running when the car is shut. Not a danger of the car staying on and moving, just a danger of current being drawn from the battery. The shift lever assembly has been redesigned to make sure electrical systems are shut. My car is ready, Was tested after sitting overnight,. Will pick it up tomorrow and hope for the best.

yes, all or nearly all. the logic of that seems simple: it takes time to drain the battery and cars are parked longest at home. It also might take time before a system comes alive while parked. At work a car might sit for 8 hours or a little longer, in most cases.. At home it might sit for 12 to 14 hours or longer before being started again.

I appreciate your thoughts. I do not think there is anything environmental or driving habit related that contributes to the double whammy I am experiencing: I live in a warm and dry place. No special electrical noise and no pattern of anything else suffering fro interference. I drive the car nearly every day and often enough for middling to longer drives. Dead batteries have happened after longer drives (ie next day dead battery). Don't use the 12 volt outlets, don't use the USB ports, don't use bluetooth, always shut everything off before exiting the car. Ford does not think it has anything to do with the locality or my use of the car. Sync is a possible culprit, but so too is every computer system on board, every switch, and every electrical system. Ford is advising my shop to look at the coolant pump and the shifter lever, since they have found these to seem to be causes in other cases( ie, in other case they changed these things and did not have a repeat dead battery). Interestingly, no one on the forums has reported anything about these two items in connection with battery troubles. There are obviously more than a few dead battery cases not reported on this forum. I am asking to be put in direct touch with a Ford engineer. Don't know if they will agree but does not hurt to ask.

2nd dead battery episode this morning on my 2014 C-Max SE. (the lemon law replacement car for my 2013 C-Max . . .) being towed to the dealer now. one new weird symptom: the driver's side rear door was unlocked. All other doors were locked. Suggests a possible malfunction in the electronic locking system. will see what the service department and engineers can do, and will ask for a higher level of involvement from Ford's engineers (will see what Ford says about that).

You should bring it in to have a record of a repair attempt, which you will need if you ask Ford for a buy back. You should also make sure the shop has tried everything reported on the forum. Have they checked electrical connectors? Have they checked all the connections on the Body Control Module by pulling it, reinstalling it, and reprogramming it? If they have tried all of this and have nothing more to try from Ford's hot line, then get them to write that in a letter which you could include in a buyback request. You say the shop does not know what to do . . . have they contacted Ford's engineers via the hotline?

Hi Donna That is amazing. Both of our 2013's functioned perfectly while the buy back case was pending, roughly October to March. Go over the paperwork for your 2013 from its last repair attempts. It sounds like it was in the shop in September or October 2013. Talk to your dealer service department about checking everything on the 2014 that they touched on your 2013 back in September/October. That's what I did with my service department. They checked & updated all software as per all the TSBs, checked the electrical connectors on the main wiring harness per that TSB, and, last and maybe most important of all, they disconnected and then reconnected the Body Control Module and reprogrammed it. There is a TSB for a bad ground connection on the Body Control Module, and possible bad pin connections on it, too. These can make eletrical systems function erratically. The TSB tells dealers to check these connections if there is a trouble code, but it is worth checking the connections even without a trouble code. I have a strong hunch that the Body Control Module might have been the chief culprit on my 2013. The circumstances and timing of problems and the disappearance of problems after October 2013 point in that direction. I will post full details if I have a re-occurrence of the 12 volt problems. So far, so good. Please update us on what your dealer does on your car. Let's hope we won't need to make lemon law claims again. But, if it comes to that, at least we know how to do it and have had the experience of Ford being better than reasonable about it.

Ford has bought back cars when the cases surpass the limits set by the lemon law - not the time limits, but the number of repair attempts and/or days in the shop to try to repair a significant problem. The CMax is not an old enough model to exceed the time limits. No, Ford engineers have not contacted me. Yes, it is probably less expensive for Ford to settle buy back case through its own process rather than stonewalling and forcing showdowns in court. In court they would lose if the case is good (depends on the case and the applicable State laws) and then they would need to pay attonry's costs. Nevertheless, there still seems to be a more responsible approach here than with GM and Toyota in their recent troubles. It is not just about buy back cases, but about trying to fix the problems. Toyota denied there was any acceleration problem. Of course it was harder to prove the acceleration problem was real than it is to prove that the CMax dead battery problem is real.

Update, information, comments: 1) Got the car back yesterday. I have an excellent service adviser and an excellent mechanic at the dealership: they are smart, honest, and share information with me. The battery was badly drained from an overnight current draw. They updated all firmware. They disconnected wiring connectors per the 2013 TSB, found no water intrusion, cleaned the connections, applied dielectric grease/sealant, and reconnected. And, last and we think most important, they removed the Body Control Module and reconnected it, checking all connections, and then re-programmed the BCM. They also checked to make sure all dash lights shut down after turning off and locking the car - Ford is advising service departments to check this. No problem on my car. Then they fully charged the battery and held it overnight to test the next morning. Time will tell if this works. I am optimistic that the BCM is the culprit. 2) I would not argue with anyone who decides not to try a second CMax. That is a very reasonable decision to make. At first, that is what I was sure I would do - i.e, take the buy back money and buy a different car. 3) My best guess - and it is only a guess - is that the incidence rate for the 12 volt problems is probably in the range of 1% to 5% of CMaxs. I don't think Ford will ever release statistics and we cannot work them up ourselves because all we have is self-reporting from people who find their way to this forum. We know dozens of cases have been reported on this forum (haven't tried to count for a long time) and that the dead battery discussion is more active than any similar trouble topic on most other cars. 4) So far it seems the problems hit cars relatively soon after purchase or soon after having work done on the cars. 5) The several reports of first time trouble after having software updates like 13B12 seems to be a clue. 6) Ford has not yet found a definitive cause or causes, nor has it confirmed definitive fixes. The 2014 model has very few changes from the 2013. There is no electronics redesign of the 2014 that could claim to fix the problems experience in the 2013, and now my car provides direct evidence of that. 7) Ford has, however, not denied the problem, as Toyota and GM have done in more serious and deadly cases that have been in the news these days.Individual dealerships have been a problem for some owners, but the Ford Motor Co has not refused warranty service and has, in fact, authorized some expensive repair attempts. The wiring harness is not cheap, nor is the BCM. Last but not least, in all but one of the buy back cases reported here, it seems Ford has offered to buy back or replace CMaxs with little resistance when the problems clearly surpass the limits set by State Lemon Laws. The process is time consuming, but Ford has shown itself to be responsible and reasonable in almost all of these cases. High points for that. 8) What happens after warranty? That is a good question. It is well documented that this is a problem rooted in the original design of car parts and/or software, and not something that happens from ordinary wear and tear, nor something caused by the owner, nor something that can truthfully be attributed to mechanic's error. We can't know what will happen in the years ahead, but I think it would behoove Ford to fix the problem on all cars regardless of warranty expiration if they discover a fix and if they want to continue to sell CMaxs. Given Ford's responsiveness on repairs and buy backs so far, I am inclined to be a little optimistic on this point.

Here we go again dead battery in my 2014 CMax SE which is a lemon law replacement for my 2013 CMax. Got the car last week, approximately 200-250 miles on it. Drove it about 40 miles yesterday. Dead this morning. never used blue tooth or sync. shut the lights off, etc and so forth. need to retrace all the steps taken with the 2013: check software, check electrical connectors for water intrusion, check Body Control Module for proper ground. My money is on the last item. Lesson for us all: the 2014 model has not corrected the root cause(s) of the dead battery syndrome. Will have more information next week. My service rep is out until Monday.

FWIW: When I first filed my case for a buy back I was sure I would not try another CMax. Opting to chose a different car would be a reasonable decision. In your case, the trouble you are reporting seems unique. Maybe I've been too focused on the battery problems to see reports about other problems, but so far you have not written about the engine warning light problem in a way that suggests you know there are other cases. It is possible your car is an individual lemon, as opposed to the 12 volt problems that afflict a fair number of CMaxs. If I am right about that, then there is little reason to worry about a 2nd CMAx having the same problem as your car. I've been reading the reports about the GM recall and it sure puts my dealings with Ford in a better light. At a few junctures the buy back/replacement process slowed down, but Ford was not fighting it like GM has appeared to fight off cases with much more dangerous problems. I appreciate that more now.

Yes, thought about this long and hard, especially the question of possible long term costs post warranty. Your VW problem involved a system that blows out after time, if I understand correctly, so that failure requires replacement of the system. (looked it up on a forum: Yikes!!! Cars stall out while driving, which is very dangerous. And VW has a mixed record of responsiveness, sometimes blaming impure gasoline. Ford's responsiveness has been very good, on the whole.) The CMX 12 volt problem seems different: a persistent bug in some % of the cars that causes 12 volt problems in a relatively short time frame (not after years of driving, so far as we can tell, but after weeks or months). If the problem exists on the new car it will likely show itself soon and re-occur every couple of months, and if that happens there is a backstop in place in terms of losses. I would not try a CMAX for a third time..... I'm optmistic (not foolishly so, I hope) that I won't have to go through that.