Online Chat with C-Max Engineer

[Maximus]

An online chat with the engineer for the C-Max and Fusion hybrids.

 

The audio starts off weak, but it improves

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUwnEdPQt0g

[Jus-A-CMax]

Great, great and very revealing interview..thanks!

 

My main takeaway from that whole chat are:

 

1. 60 is more efficient than 55 - just because of the active shutters. I concur, I was seeing that  in my own drives but could not figure out why, until now.

 

2. The active shutters were acknowledges as "dumb", great. Ford spends so much money on the whole system and to me, seemed to miss the ball with what, imo, is a critical piece of cake with the mileage pie. We now have it confirmed this is based on speed alone, hence "dumb" but I senses that the engineers are regretting not making it smarter to have it temp based and be a possible solution to the cold weather driving. As much as the engineer talked about installing your own block heater - and ptjones seemed to prove this with his own closed grill research, having those shutters closed at the cold temps would be a viable solution. 

 

3. Didn't know they ran the coolant along the exhaust somewhat to provide heating.

 

4. Now I am paranoid that all the stuff we put into the CMax may block the battery vents - got to find these vents and make sure they aren't accidentally covered by the gear.

 

So yeah, a very revealing interview - thanks for the links Maximus... :rockon: 

[darrelld]

<p>Thanks for the post. Excellent discussion with the Ford C-Max Hybrid/Energi Engineer.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Highpoints include;</p>

<p>Energi Ford Mobile app release imminent, Fusion Energi in final assembly configuration at the factory, all hybrid powertrain software engineering is coded in-house by Ford developers.</p>

<p>Better solutions for ICE thermal management actively in engineering study.</p>

Edited February 9, 2013 by darrelld

[Tdefny]

Thank you. Very interesting to hear about all of the choices they had to make and what they discovered along the way.

 

Hopefully some stuff like ICE management and controlling active shutters based on temperature and speed will be software upgrades that can flow back down to the existing cars and not just future models.

 

Can't wait for MFM to work.

[erwhitham]

I also enjoyed the discussion though my technological knowledge is next to nil. One aspect of the video dealt with the size of the battery for the auto start. Someone clarify for me if this meant a larger battery for all remote start vehicles across all makes, or specific to the Ford hybrids. Thanks

Edited February 10, 2013 by erwhitham

[CNCGeek]

Great, great and very revealing interview..thanks!

 

My main takeaway from that whole chat are:

 

1. 60 is more efficient than 55 - just because of the active shutters. I concur, I was seeing that  in my own drives but could not figure out why, until now.

 

2. The active shutters were acknowledges as "dumb", great. Ford spends so much money on the whole system and to me, seemed to miss the ball with what, imo, is a critical piece of cake with the mileage pie. We now have it confirmed this is based on speed alone, hence "dumb" but I senses that the engineers are regretting not making it smarter to have it temp based and be a possible solution to the cold weather driving. As much as the engineer talked about installing your own block heater - and ptjones seemed to prove this with his own closed grill research, having those shutters closed at the cold temps would be a viable solution. 

 

3. Didn't know they ran the coolant along the exhaust somewhat to provide heating.

 

4. Now I am paranoid that all the stuff we put into the CMax may block the battery vents - got to find these vents and make sure they aren't accidentally covered by the gear.

 

So yeah, a very revealing interview - thanks for the links Maximus... :rockon: 

Thanks for sticking it out and posting the summary, the audio sucks so much I had to turn it off - sounds like they are inside a fish tank, with bells, chimes and keys clicking.  I just tried again and started from the middle, at least it is watchable from there.  Good to see Ford putting an engineer out there honestly answering questions without the marketing BS.

Edited February 9, 2013 by CNCGeek

[rfruth]

Good video thanks  -  glad to hear no vent mode subject brought up !

[DaveofDurham]

Active grill shutter discussion starts at 44:25

 

Before I saw this video, I drove about 80 miles today in eco cruise at 62mph.  I guess the grill shutters were closed some or all of the time while I was doing this.

 

I need to try a highway route at 55 mph and at 62 mph and see if there is an mpg difference.

 

He didn't say closed shutters were bad for aerodynamics at lower speeds (he just said they didn't help much at lower speeds), so why not enable or direct the shutters to close at other times such as cold start?

[PWBarrett]

I also enjoyed the discussion though my technological knowledge is next to nil. One aspect of the video dealt with the size of the battery for the auto start. Someone clarify for me if this meant a larger battery for all remote start vehicles across all makes, or specific to the Ford hybrids. Thanks

That part was about non-Hybrids with auto-start, where they have to use a regular starter motor, so they need the deep-cycle battery.

For the Hybrids, it's just the reverse.  The 12V battery doesn't start the car so it can be smaller.

[Tdefny]

There would be lower air flow into the radiator at lower speeds and the possibility of inadequate cooling if the shutters are closed. With little aerodynamic advantage to closing them it was simplest to close them only at speed. It sounds from some of the posts on this forum like it would be worth it to consider adding temperature into the mix, but the coolant system is already thermostatically controlled so it might not make a difference.

[erwhitham]

That part was about non-Hybrids with auto-start, where they have to use a regular starter motor, so they need the deep-cycle battery.

For the Hybrids, it's just the reverse.  The 12V battery doesn't start the car so it can be smaller.

Thanks.

[salman]

That part was about non-Hybrids with auto-start, where they have to use a regular starter motor, so they need the deep-cycle battery.

For the Hybrids, it's just the reverse.  The 12V battery doesn't start the car so it can be smaller.

 

 

True enough for starting the hybrids under normal conditions . . . . but then there is this bug causing dead 12 volt systems in what seems to be a non-trivial minority of C-Max cars. The problem has not been successfully diagnosed yet. The cause could be the smaller battery size coupled with the slower re-charge rate from the stepdown converter (slower than a traditional alternator). Or the cause could be twitchy relay or circuit, or a combination of a small battery and circuit problem.

 

Too bad we couldn't send in questions

[SBGrad]

Too bad we couldn't send in questions

 

I could've sworn the marketeer said they were taking questions from FB and twitter, but I could be wrong.  Even if they were, you have to figure out WHICH Ford acctount/FB page to folow to find out about these things.  Iget email from Ford Social and they didn't tell me about this.  Maybe go to You Tube and look at who posted it and go backwards from there.

[RachelnLa]

SB, I clicked the link and enjoyed the pics of your car. Nice photos. I noticed the umbrella holder others talked about. Great idea. In the center console I see the cup invention at the bottom. I would be worried about Moisture. I also see an Indention next to the 12v plug. Or is it not really much of an Indention and more just the molding? I also noticed lights in the rear of the vehicle on the sides. Hadn't noticed that before.

 

Thanks for sharing the photos :). I am able to get my "fix" until my car arrives lol

[SBGrad]

SB, I clicked the link and enjoyed the pics of your car. Nice photos.  In the center console I see the cup invention at the bottom. I would be worried about Moisture. I also see an Indention next to the 12v plug. Or is it not really much of an Indention and more just the molding? I also noticed lights in the rear of the vehicle on the sides. Hadn't noticed that before.

 

Thanks for sharing the photos

 

You're welcome, thanks for the nice words about my pix.  I'm something of an amateur photog and it was fun doing a 'photo shoot' with the new car.

 

Umm, let's see-- yes, I too am worried about moisture, especially with the media center there in the center console, so I will never put drinks down in 'the pit.'  I had to go look at the indentation next to the 12V plug, it is about 2" deep and 2" high, so you can put small objects in there.  Yes, there are lights in the back, and also reflectors on the frame of the C-Max, so if you have the lift gate up and you are parked on a street/road at night and a car comes up behind you, there will be something for their headlights to bounce of off.   When the gate is closed the reflectors are hidden (but then of course you have the taillights in position).  I rechecked my C-Max pictures and I framed so tightly on the mtn bike that I left out the reflectors-- have to fix that next time I am shooting.

 

This had been WAAAAYY OT, so to get back on topic, here is a link to some info about Gil Portalatin, the Ford engineer in the 'Lunch Date' Fusion video: http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=31305  --  I googled his name to find that link and saw that he has a number of hybrd related videos up on YouTube.

[RachelnLa]

For an amateur you're very good. Keep it up. My sis is like that, a natural behind the lens.

[roninsd]

" I also see an Indention next to the 12v plug. Or is it not really much of an Indention and more just the molding?"

 

Once I realized that this small indentation existed, I tried putting some coins in there.  As long as there aren't a lot, it seems to hold them ok.  The floor of the indent has a slight downward slant, making a nice little nook.

 

I second Rachel's compliments on your photography, SB.  REALLY nice job.  Since our cars are the same color, it makes mine look great!

[RachelnLa]

I was wondering about it holding coins too.

[ptjones]

There would be lower air flow into the radiator at lower speeds and the possibility of inadequate cooling if the shutters are closed. With little aerodynamic advantage to closing them it was simplest to close them only at speed. It sounds from some of the posts on this forum like it would be worth it to consider adding temperature into the mix, but the coolant system is already thermostatically controlled so it might not make a difference.

I don't know what FORD is doing, but I connected a camera to my laptop and put it in grill opening when I was testing my Grill Covers. The shutters are controlled by temp not speed. They start to open at 190deg.F and are fully open at 213deg.F and the fan comes on at 215deg.F. Your shutters are always closed in city driving unless you are using AC. Having a ScanGauge is useful in determine these functions. The aerodynamic benefit for the shutters is minimal at best because they open up when going fast when they need to be closed. That is why my Grill Covers improve MPG by 2mpg at 70mph.  

[plus 3 golfer]

I don't know what FORD is doing, but I connected a camera to my laptop and put it in grill opening when I was testing my Grill Covers. The shutters are controlled by temp not speed. They start to open at 190deg.F and are fully open at 213deg.F and the fan comes on at 215deg.F. Your shutters are always closed in city driving unless you are using AC. Having a ScanGauge is useful in determine these functions. The aerodynamic benefit for the shutters is minimal at best because they open up when going fast when they need to be closed. That is why my Grill Covers improve MPG by 2mpg at 70mph.  

I agree Paul as when I listened to the Ford engineer's statement I thought he misspoke especially calling them "dumb" and operating on speed.  How can the shutters be closed going 75 - 80 mph for XX miles up a 7% grade in 100*F+  ambient temperature with a/c on.  You need airflow through the grills in those conditions to remove heat from the condenser and the radiator. 

 

Also, here's the coolant temps I got when testing the grill covers at 70 mph at 27*F ambient when I measured the 2.1 mpg gain with the grill covers on.  If the shutters were fully closed as the Ford engineer says at 60 mph, why would there be a temperature difference between the uphill tests with / without covers of 7.5*F.  Based on your shutter opening temperatures, my shutters were open to some extent in the no cover test thereby increasing aerodynamic drag. 

 

[ptjones]

Something odd is going on here, I don't see the point of miss information.

 

BTW on my trip to SF and back I tried to determine if there is any difference in   MPG at 206deg.F vs 213deg.F and couldn't tell. Do you think with your laptop you could tell? Maybe come up a curve for optimum MPG vs temp.

[StoBro2]

It's possible that the grille shutters in the C-Max are controlled differently than they are in a Focus, but according to this collision repair training website:

 

"The shutters are regulated by the powertrain control module (PCM), and can be set into 16 different positions, from fully closed (see Figure 2), to fully open (see Figure 3), depending on the amount of cooling air required. The grille shutter actuator receives the position commands from the PCM. The PCM determines the required positions based on inputs such as vehicle speed, coolant temperature, ambient air temperature, and air conditioning system pressure."

 

http://pdmdev.i-car.com/html_pages/technical_information/advantage/advantage_online_archives/2011/062911.shtml

[DaveofDurham]

It's possible that the grille shutters in the C-Max are controlled differently than they are in a Focus, but according to this collision repair training website:

 

"The shutters are regulated by the powertrain control module (PCM), and can be set into 16 different positions, from fully closed (see Figure 2), to fully open (see Figure 3), depending on the amount of cooling air required. The grille shutter actuator receives the position commands from the PCM. The PCM determines the required positions based on inputs such as vehicle speed, coolant temperature, ambient air temperature, and air conditioning system pressure."

 

http://pdmdev.i-car.com/html_pages/technical_information/advantage/advantage_online_archives/2011/062911.shtml

 

Very interesting!  Thanks for sharing.

[ptjones]

It's possible that the grille shutters in the C-Max are controlled differently than they are in a Focus, but according to this collision repair training website:

 

"The shutters are regulated by the powertrain control module (PCM), and can be set into 16 different positions, from fully closed (see Figure 2), to fully open (see Figure 3), depending on the amount of cooling air required. The grille shutter actuator receives the position commands from the PCM. The PCM determines the required positions based on inputs such as vehicle speed, coolant temperature, ambient air temperature, and air conditioning system pressure."

 

http://pdmdev.i-car.com/html_pages/technical_information/advantage/advantage_online_archives/2011/062911.shtml

I have not tested anything besides CMAX but hope to check out FFH in near future.  When I did my test I started with cool ICE and drove onto fwy to 70mph before ICE warmed up. At 190deg.F shutters opened 1/4  and kept  on opening in 1/4 steps to fully open at 213deg.F. You could see them changing with temp change. The shutters open when you turn on AC and fan also. This has nothing to do with speed.

[darrelld]

I have not tested anything besides CMAX but hope to check out FFH in near future.  When I did my test I started with cool ICE and drove onto fwy to 70mph before ICE warmed up. At 190deg.F shutters opened 1/4  and kept  on opening in 1/4 steps to fully open at 213deg.F. You could see them changing with temp change. The shutters open when you turn on AC and fan also. This has nothing to do with speed.

 

That behavior would do more to utilize the shutter hardware than what the Ford Engineer described. The sound from the engine compartment sounds like a stepper motor adjusting when you turn the C-Max on/off and you wouldn't need that for purely speed based adjustments. From the way the Engineer described something as simple as a solenoid would do.

Edited February 12, 2013 by darrelld