Twitchy steering?

[plus 3 golfer]

I have not noticed this problem at all. Thanks a lot if I start noticing it now.

 

 

Kind of like the floaters in my eyes that I don't notice until someone brings them up.  Dang, I just did. :)

Thanks for bringing up the floaters.  :redcard:  Now I'll be watching them all day. :)

[dalebunker]

I'm finally taking this issue to the dealer. I've put about a 1000 miles on the car and I have 20 to 30 mile freeway commutes which --mostly because I'm aware of it now-- the car simply does not track a straight line. I'm getting ready for a trip and anticipate this process will be exhausting on long straight stretches of freeway: I just can't relax driving the car as I'm constantly correcting the track every few seconds vs just holding the car in a straight line. We'll see if they come up with anything...

[BigRed]

I have only been driving my car for 3 days now but I haven't noticed this at all. I did notice that the c-max has VERY accurate steering and there is zero play in the wheel.

 

I am driving a shitty scion XB right now as a loaner from the detail shop while the c-max is getting opticoated  and there is so much play in that wheel I can almost movie drive it.  :shift:

[Pemulis]

Dalebunker's description is close to what I'm experiencing, except perhaps too understated.  I describe it as a lurching sensation, back and forth, that requires constant correction to maintain a true course.  It gets tiresome, and detracts from all the good things the car offers, and, imo, presents at least a marginal safety issue.   I don't want to exaggerate it, but it also causes a perceptible, if slight, pitching of the occupants back and forth in the car, which is uncomfortable.  My dealer first diagnosed it as a "sensitivity" to the freeway road grooves, with nothing that can be done.  They put an inquiry into Ford, which responded that it was a natural characteristic of the electronic steering that just takes some getting used to.  I understand that the electronic steering may require some adjustment, but that doesn't explain the lurching, which in my view should not be part of the driving experience in a new car. 

 

I read a report from an Energi owner who was experiencing what sounds like the same thing, and after finally convincing his dealer that a problem existed, they diagnosed a faulty or over-tightened rack and pinion assembly (whatever that is) that, once replaced, corrected the problem.  I don't know if the Energi has the same steering assembly as the regular C-Max, but my dealer thus far has shown no interest in this possibility.

 

Does anybody know whether all these cars come with Michelin tires?  I'm wondering if different tires might help. 

 

This car has been a pleasure in all other respects, but this problem is a huge black cloud. 

[dalebunker]

Pemulis, thanks for your posting, a more concise and clear characterization of the issue. I took the car to the delear and received the expected 'its the characteristic of the car and steering'. With your reply, I'm going to keep pushing them

 

Your comment about the rack and pinion being to tight would be a plausible explanation. I've been in a ford fusion with the same platform and electric steering for the past two weeks. The Fusion 'acts' like it wants to do the pitch back and forth like the c-max but takes care of itself without having to make manual adjustments. Additionally in the 'zone' the fusion steering is light and easy to drive vs the C-max, when in the same zone is more tight and more difficult to adjust manually.

 

I'm going to talk to the advisor in the morning and explain this to him. He is so committed to assuring I am happy, he's not letting the me mechanic ignore my issue. This helps characterize my issues more clearly.

 

Regards! Dale

[stephengoldberger]

I found the CMax to be typical of the electric steering cars I've tried - similar to the Mazda CX-5.  The Prius was horrible - no feel at all.  What it seems to lack is "on center feel" - that is, the force needed to make small corrections is the same as the force for larger corrections.  Once you get into a turn, it feels more settled.  A friend of mine who has one said that increasing the "toe-in" helps it.  Note that the warranty covers faulty wheel alignment for the first year (and wiper blades for the first six months).  Sometimes tire stores offer free alignment checks - might be worth it to have the car checked.

[DR61]

Both C-Max models come with the Michelin Energy Saver A/S, so I don't think the type of tire is the problem.  It is possible there is an individual tire out of spec of course.  Our new Energi does not exhibit the characteristics described here except some correction needed in strong crosswinds, which is understandable.  It is not that much different from our other car (Mini) with electric power steering.  I like them both.  We tested a PIP before buying the Energi and I must say the Prius steering was the worst I have tried in any car in the last 25 years.

 

Good advice to keep after the dealer to get the steering adjusted.  It should feel good at normal highway speeds in good weather.

[Pemulis]

Any luck from your dealer, DaleBunker?  My advisor was showing me the same concern as yours until the service manager said nothing was wrong, at which time the advisor bailed on me and suggested I go to another dealer for a second opinion.  I'm going in again tomorrow to see if I can get a better explanation from the service manager on how he is so sure nothing is wrong.  I'm also going to test drive another C-Max to see if it's the same.  If I hadn't read the story from the Energi owner who had the same symptoms finally diagnosed as a rack and pinion problem that was successfully corrected, I might be willing to accept what the dealer is telling me, but I'm not ready to give up yet.  I'll keep you posted. 

[jmckinley]

The tight rack and pinion sounds logical to me.  I've always thought the problem felt like too much friction in the system somewhere.  You apply a little pressure, nothing happens, a little more still nothing then with a little more pressure it breaks loose and turns too much.  That would be consistent with high friction in the shaft bearings or the gear itself.

 

I may just be getting used to the car, but it seems to me that the problem is less noticeable with more miles on the car.  This too is consistent with a friction problem.

[PWBarrett]

It seems fine to me at low speed though.

I'm thinking it has to do with the electric assist not kicking in until some fraction of a degree change in the wheel position.

Or some interaction of that with the variable ratio steering at highway speed.

 

With hydraulic power steering, it's an analog continuous process, not a digital one.

 

Don't get me wrong though, most of the time I love the steering, and wouldn't trade back to having power steering pumps, fluid, hoses, belts, etc.

[Red Twin]

I really don't have an issue with the steering at all.  I find the driving experiance to be enjoyable, and I am really past the age of road racing.  The twisties that I have driven have been a fun no sweat experiance.

[PWBarrett]

Driving around town, and even on twisty roads, I love the steering.

 

It's when you're doing 70 on a long fairly straight stretch of highway, with some crosswind, slight curves, or anything that needs occasional minor steering corrections, that it jumps a bit, requiring another correction back the other way, etc.

[SnowStorm]

Quite certain I've experienced the same thing - you can easily make slight overcorrections.  If there is ever a "fix", I would want to get it - even though it usually goes unnoticed.

[salsaguy]

Dale, where did you rent the cmax?

I've called all over creation at all the rental places with no luck getting a c-max for a few days to test drive one before we purchase one.

any help is much appreciated.

what model and package was it? SE or SEL? etc

 

 

 

Yep! Same thing here. I rented a C-max the week before mine arrived, it was a little twitchy on the hiway. Mine does the same thing. So it's something inherent in the car. Be curious if a factory alignment setting is off (doubt it) or its something to do with the EPAS system ( most likely). And like the other poster, not sure I want to bring this up with the dealer --yet.

[dalebunker]

Hi Salsaguy.

 

Hertz had them at the Oakland airport in NCAL.  It was just a chance I came across the rental.  I was returning a car from a business trip and I saw 2 C-Max's on the Hertz lot.  I walked up to the counter and asked to rent; they were available.  This was definitely a lucky chance as I had been looking/calling all over to rent one and nothing was showing up, nor would the local rental desks really saying anything about their inventory.  So I don't have any real suggestions, other than call the local rental car desks; maybe try the airports.  They will not hold a specific car for you, so if they have them, you'll have to go and take the chance to get one.

 

Good luck!!

[salsaguy]

sadly this is not an option for us. airports are too far away to make it worth the inconvenience for us.

i maybe will call the airport rental agency to see what can be done for non airport locations to get a c-max.

i emailed a highly rated ford dealer near me and they said they could let me test drive for 3 hours but i don't want the sales pressure tied to it. just want to rent for 2-4 days and do a full review and test to determine if we get one or not.

plus we are 2-4 months from purchasing one so the dealer route isn't the best option due to sales pressure after test drive.

Edited June 12, 2013 by salsaguy

[KAL Cmax]

I also notice a twitch, deems much more pronounced when changing from ICE to EV. It almost seems like the variable power assist doesn't increase resistance (decrease assistance) above 45 mph. Granted I did have a Toyota Highlander before, probably the only thing I miss from the Highlander is the steering and turn radius.

[PWBarrett]

In our C-Max, this is now FIXED  :happy feet:

You may have seen a thread here where JulieB posted about a power steering failure (200 miles from home of course)...

Since they fixed that, this problem is GONE.  At highway speeds, the steering is now smooth as butter - it's like driving a different car.

Here's a link to a photo of the repair ticket:

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/gallery/image/473-steeringrepair/

 

They replaced the power steering gear due to high friction, and adjusted the toe-in (although that may have just been due to working on the steering.)

 

So now I know this wasn't just a characteristic of the car, and was really a problem.  Maybe something over-tightened led to the premature demise of the power steering (although it was always just fine in town).

 

Anyway - Happy now  :)

(Except for the touch-screen getting reversed when they did the 3.5.1 update, but that's a different story.)

Edited July 1, 2013 by PWBarrett

[Noah Harbinger]

HMMM I wish I could get a sense of what you were experiencing before. It is starting to bother me more, how cruising on the highway straight doesn't feel so straight. 

[PWBarrett]

If at highway speed, the normal slight pressure on the wheel to correct drift has the desired effect, then you don't have this problem.

OTOH, if you consistently have to correct to the same side on various roads, you should have your alignment checked (soon).

[Noah Harbinger]

Well what I'm getting at, and what I assumed OP was talking about,  is that any slight pressure to correct seems to overcorrect. However I may still be used to the change from my previous car, which had a bent frame (hence uncorrectable pull), and way too much free play in the steering.

[PWBarrett]

If there's a little bump in the steering each time it over-corrects, that's this problem.

If it smoothly over-corrects, I'd say that's just a difference from what you're used to - the steering on a C-Max has less play than any car I've ever had.

[salsaguy]

Barrett if you go into the test mode, you can fix the upside screen down issue. search on the 351 thread as others had the same issue as you after they got the 351 update and the dealer failed to notice/check for this and verify the update worked perfectly.

 

Anyway - Happy now  :)

(Except for the touch-screen getting reversed when they did the 3.5.1 update, but that's a different story.)