General Question about C-max Hybrid

[Ron70]

Hi, my wife is interested in a 2013 c-max hybrid. It has 140K on it, but is in remarkably clean and well kept condition.  The battery shows a nearly full charge with just a short drive. Will this run when the Hybrid battery dies, just run on the gas Engine, or doe sit stall the car completely?

How are the Gas motors for longevity. I saw one report of 250K on one with the original battery from a post in may of 2023, I do know know if this is realistic or not. The price OTD is advertised as 6K.. It will be used mostly for commuting. 

Any  information, greatly appreciated. Also looking at a 2014 with 120K on it but for 2K more.. Is the 2013 more problematic than a 2014?

Edited October 3, 2023 by Ron70

[homestead]

The hybrid battery gets recharged every time you drive it.  Car switches back and forth between battery and gas engine depending how you are driving.

Hybrid battery should last the life of the vehicle.

[Ron70]

That is good Info, I read about Tranny issues being more likely in the 2013 Model vs newer ones. Driving it felt extremely smooth with no odd noises, would it be a fair assumption, that at 140K miles, if it would have had an issue, it would have been taken care of by then, and if not its probably safe?

Sorry, I hate being that "question person" as I am on several Motorcycle and 4x4 forums and typically am the one chiming in to offer advise, I just am ignorant on this vehicle, so again, any comments are appreciated.

[jestevens]

My 2013 SEL has 130k and still seems okay .. just routine maintenance, new 12V battery after 7 years. Having said that the last year the C-MAX was made was 2018, can you look for newer model year?

 

The hybrid is NOT an electric car, the battery is used to give more power, even out engine RPMs and extend the gas mileage.  It's still significant since the best gas only crossovers still get like 25MPG - I routinely get 40MPG.

 

To maximize MPG you'll also want to use low rolling resistance tires.

Edited October 4, 2023 by jestevens

[Ron70]

Good Info! In the jest of it, I Started looking at others for sale within an hour or so from me.. None of the 2014s are near that 6K price though. Would it be wort it to spend  2K more to get a 2014 with similar mileage and cleanliness just to be sure it has the upgraded transmission?

Edited October 4, 2023 by Ron70

[jestevens]

I've not sure if they've ever been able to pin down a particular range of model year where the transmission issue was fixed. I think my car was built May 2012 and I've never had a problem .. most of my driving is 40-60MPH driving on rural roads.

I even had the transmission fluid changed at 128K per the service schedule and the transmission has been fine. The transmission is more like a manual with planetary gears and electric motors in the same case. There aren't any "bands" like in a traditional automatic. The issue seemed to be with a particular bearing seal where somehow the shaft would get dislocated and grind the transmission case?

It's been a very good car, between this car and my Prius I'll always be looking for a hybrid or EV in the future. They are smooth, quiet and powerful plus good MPG.

Having said that there's still no getting around that it's a potential high mileage vehicle with a 10 year old high voltage battery pack. You may need to spend at least $3-5K on a rebuilt or new battery pack sometime within the next 5 years.

It would be nice to find a car that wasn't a taxi, where the battery wasn't excessively boiled in the heat or frozen, the batteries are usually happiest at the same temperature range as human beings. Edited October 4, 2023 by jestevens

[Ron70]

Thank you Jestevens, i think the fact I am unfamiliar with Hybrids, and the Mileage I'm either going to pony up and get something newer or just look at a Corolla or Civic or something. Appreciate the Responses folks!

[nogoodbum]

As I read your post, it sounds like you are concerned with the life of the HVB & possible failure. The vast majority of HVB failures have happened to the ENERGI models of the Ford C-Max. The ENERGI model has a HVB that is three times larger than a standard model is more prone to heat related damage. IMO, the cooling system for the HVB is more than enough on standard but fall short on the ENERGI in some cases, [outside temps, driving styles, & other factors]. The ENERGI model also has controls that allow owner to have input on charging & battery use, the standard is controlled by the car's programming. Again IMO only, I suspect failures have been more prone due to high heat in battery pack & some owners unknowingly putting too much stress on HVB for long life. The ICE in the C-Max is a solid little motor, more than up to the job as long as you take care of it with regular maintaining, [good oil & filters, good gas, & quality replacement parts].  The transmission failures reported in the 2013-2014-mid/2015, IMO, may have been pushed by the fact that without a regular dipstick. owners & a lot of mechanics make a mistake & believe that the trans is a sealed unit. This happened to me at a national chain, [cough cough Firestone cough cough]. The C-Max came with  reg/non-synthetic trans fluid & is much more apt to heat related loss than full synthetic. I am not stating that this is the cause but just something that may have helped the problem occur. This problem is not just a Ford issue but is a CVT issue across the board. Have a neighbor with a Nissan Altima with a failed CVT right now &  no dipstick on CVT [but he drives like Richard Petty, so who knows]. If you decide on one or the other C-Max, the first thing I would suggest is to change trans fluid if it hasn't been done before. A lot of owners of the Ford C-Max have had issues with the 12v battery. It seems to cause a different effect when it fails for every single owner, making it hard to pinpoint. Totally unlike what we are expecting, some of us for 50+ years of car ownership. Sorry for the long post & Thanks for the read.

[nogoodbum]

Add to my post [sorry], my car is a SEL Hybrid, reg model. 155k miles. has not needed to add oil between changes since I bought car [knock wood]. Had trans fluid changed at 100k no issues with it before or since.

[jestevens]

I think the CVT in the C-MAX and Prius are more reliable compared to the ones from Nissan for example -- it's just unfortunate they had this seal issue. I do love the car, a lot of hybrids come with upmarket trim because the car cost a lot more than a gas car at new. I'm very satisfied with my purchase but bought the car used with 30k mi around 2016 or so so I've been able to enjoy it for quite a while.

The 2nd Gen Prius batteries are starting to fail now, but they also use Nickel Metal Hydride chemistry, I think the C-MAX uses Lithium ion -- so far I've only seen a handful of cars reported on here saying "Stop Safely Now" -- someone with the Forscan app and an OBD dongle might be able to see the actual degradation in the state of charge on the battery pack.

The charging routine typically only allows using between 20-80% of the ACTUAL battery pack range to help preserve the battery for as long as possible. Charging to 100% or discharging to 0% is a sure way to lower the life expectancy of the battery so the battery management software is programmed to avoid it. This is all seamless to the driver, the difference is programmed into the gauges, etc.

Maybe you can at least test drive the C-MAX and see what you think .. I really like the car .. It's a lot better than the competition, which at the time was the Prius V -- (had absolutely NO power). Ford was more interested in selling F-150, Escapes and Fusion and seemingly took some government funding to develop their version of the transmission and a few other components. They oversold the car as getting 60MPG -- on a very good day, with just the right driving the car CAN do that but it's more typical to get around 40-42MPG.

It was TRW that actually developed the drivetrain concept way back in the 60's but up until now they just never had decent enough batteries to make it a reality. Edited October 5, 2023 by jestevens

[annie]

I'm looking at purchasing a 2017 C-Max Energi.  The odometer reads 106,500. Car has been meticulously cared for with all maintenance done as required. I read a lot about battery packs used in these cars.  Seller has told me charging was always a 120 volt slow charge. What red flags if any should I look for?

[annie]

On 10/5/2023 at 5:26 AM, nogoodbum said:

As I read your post, it sounds like you are concerned with the life of the HVB & possible failure. The vast majority of HVB failures have happened to the ENERGI models of the Ford C-Max. The ENERGI model has a HVB that is three times larger than a standard model is more prone to heat related damage. IMO, the cooling system for the HVB is more than enough on standard but fall short on the ENERGI in some cases, [outside temps, driving styles, & other factors]. The ENERGI model also has controls that allow owner to have input on charging & battery use, the standard is controlled by the car's programming. Again IMO only, I suspect failures have been more prone due to high heat in battery pack & some owners unknowingly putting too much stress on HVB for long life. The ICE in the C-Max is a solid little motor, more than up to the job as long as you take care of it with regular maintaining, [good oil & filters, good gas, & quality replacement parts].  The transmission failures reported in the 2013-2014-mid/2015, IMO, may have been pushed by the fact that without a regular dipstick. owners & a lot of mechanics make a mistake & believe that the trans is a sealed unit. This happened to me at a national chain, [cough cough Firestone cough cough]. The C-Max came with  reg/non-synthetic trans fluid & is much more apt to heat related loss than full synthetic. I am not stating that this is the cause but just something that may have helped the problem occur. This problem is not just a Ford issue but is a CVT issue across the board. Have a neighbor with a Nissan Altima with a failed CVT right now &  no dipstick on CVT [but he drives like Richard Petty, so who knows]. If you decide on one or the other C-Max, the first thing I would suggest is to change trans fluid if it hasn't been done before. A lot of owners of the Ford C-Max have had issues with the 12v battery. It seems to cause a different effect when it fails for every single owner, making it hard to pinpoint. Totally unlike what we are expecting, some of us for 50+ years of car ownership. Sorry for the long post & Thanks for the read.

Do you believe the HVB used in the Energi will stand up if not pressed to overperform?  Is 106,500 miles on the battery pack a concern?

[homestead]

You can do a test drive when it is fully charged and see how far you can drive on battery only.

 

[annie]

On 10/15/2023 at 2:33 PM, homestead said:

You can do a test drive when it is fully charged and see how far you can drive on battery only.

 

Will that be sufficient to give a indication of the health of the batteries?  

[cr08]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:46 PM, annie said:

Will that be sufficient to give a indication of the health of the batteries?  

 

To clarify, the more accurate way to gauge the battery health of these vehicles is to see the actual kwh used from a full charge. There's no other way. Ford doesn't have any internal data points on these indicating battery health. Don't rely on the 'miles of range' the vehicle gives you as this can vary significantly depending on certain factors and isn't an accurate depiction of battery health.

 

Here's a brief rundown of the test process:

 

1) Fully charge to 100%

1a) (optional: Reset a trip meter before taking off)

2) Drive the vehicle in EV mode ONLY. Do not drive on the highway or use cabin heat/defrost or anything else that may cause the engine to start. If the engine starts during this test, the numbers are immediately invalidated.

3) Once the battery is depleted and drops to hybrid operation you can either view the kwh used on the trip meter or bring the car to a safe stop, shut it down, and view the trip summary displayed.

 

5.5kwh is what is considered brand new capacity from the factory. Above 4.0 is still 'good/ok'. Anything less starts getting into solid degradation.

 

Anecdotally: My 2013 with 90k miles is around 3.5kwh or so capacity now. It still drives with no issues and nets me in the range of 12-15 miles on a good day.

[jestevens]

The battery pack on a 2017 is only 6 years old -- I would expect the pack to last at least 10 years hopefully but of course climate and other factors may affect individual cars.

The fact that they never fast charged the car may help. cr08 gives good advice if they will let you test drive. The EV button should force the car to prioritize using the battery pack when you are ready to start the discharge part of the test.

[homestead]

Best case EV only 19-20 miles, with 100k miles something less than that.

My son has 2016 energi c-max with 72000 miles , he can go about 16 miles on ev only.

YMMV

[C-Mc]

On 10/15/2023 at 7:54 PM, cr08 said:

Anecdotally: My 2013 with 90k miles is around 3.5kwh or so capacity now. It still drives with no issues and nets me in the range of 12-15 miles on a good day.

Do all C-Max have Lithium-ion batteries?

Did you have transmission issues?

 

Thanks

[cr08]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:20 AM, C-Mc said:

Do all C-Max have Lithium-ion batteries?

Did you have transmission issues?

Yes. All have Lithium batteries even hybrid models. The only Ford vehicles that ever had the older NiMH batteries were the 2005-2012 Escape Hybrid and the first gen 2010-2012 Fusion Hybrids. Everything 2013+ in Ford's lineup are exclusively lithium-ion based.

 

No transmission issues so far knock on wood. Majority of my driving has been city driving.

[C-Mc]

On 10/15/2023 at 7:54 PM, cr08 said:

3) Once the battery is depleted and drops to hybrid operation you can either view the kwh used on the trip meter or bring the car to a safe stop, shut it down, and view the trip summary displayed.

 

How far would this typically be before the battery is depleted? 30km?

 

[cr08]

On 10/26/2023 at 2:54 PM, C-Mc said:

 

How far would this typically be before the battery is depleted? 30km?

 

That will depend on numerous factors like the current battery health/wear, ambient temp, HVAC use, driving style, etc.. Hence the aforementioned battery health test. A lot of people try to use their miles of range as an indicator of battery health which can wildly vary. Getting the actual kwh is the only true way to gauge battery health.

 

But to at least give some answer to your question: The vehicle was originally rated for up to 20 miles of range. Some people have gotten more with weird trickery with constantly changing the drive modes, confusing the range estimator. My 2013 with ~3.5kwh of capacity currently gets about 12-15 miles on a good day.

[C-Mc]

On 10/27/2023 at 8:57 AM, cr08 said:

That will depend on numerous factors like the current battery health/wear, ambient temp, HVAC use, driving style, etc.. Hence the aforementioned battery health test. A lot of people try to use their miles of range as an indicator of battery health which can wildly vary. Getting the actual kwh is the only true way to gauge battery health.

 

But to at least give some answer to your question: The vehicle was originally rated for up to 20 miles of range. Some people have gotten more with weird trickery with constantly changing the drive modes, confusing the range estimator. My 2013 with ~3.5kwh of capacity currently gets about 12-15 miles on a good day.

Does the same test apply to the hybrid to determine its battery health?

 

I have a few C-Max Hybrids in my area that are 2013 with only 45K miles and am thinking of one of these but and nervous the HVB might need to be replaced or they might end up having transmissions issues.

 

 

[cr08]

On 10/29/2023 at 2:56 PM, C-Mc said:

Does the same test apply to the hybrid to determine its battery health?

 

I have a few C-Max Hybrids in my area that are 2013 with only 45K miles and am thinking of one of these but and nervous the HVB might need to be replaced or they might end up having transmissions issues.

 

 

No. The hybrid models don't have the same degradation issues as the Energi. Ford unfortunately had poor programming on the Energi models in regards to the thermal protection and when EV use is allowed, allowing owners who just drive it like any other ICE vehicle to add extra wear to the battery. By the nature of how the hybrid models operate, they don't ever get stressed to the same level and can be driven normally without any extra precautions. The batteries should last the life of the vehicle.

 

As for transmission issues, that's a whole confusing mess. Some owners who have been around the C-Max community for a while have recently started considering that the whole transmission failure concern is a bit overblown. That's not to say it can't happen, but it's been so heavily pushed as a major detractor for the early model years even from those who have not experienced it themselves and just parroting the same line (of which I have been one but I've dialed that back a bit). Also there have been some owners of newer model years including 2017 models that have had their transmissions start to exhibit the same failure symptoms so I wouldn't even count those out of the woods yet.

 

On top of that, no one has really been able to narrow down what the true failure causes are. We all know it comes down to an incorrectly installed bearing installed from the factory that holds the transfer gear and can cause it to slip and eat into the transmission case but its unsure what triggers that to happen in the first place.

 

I've made this recommendation elsewhere and gotten heavily criticized for it, but this is a hill I'll die on: I'd honestly recommend to shorten the transmission fluid change intervals on any C-Max vehicles regardless of if it is a hybrid or Energi or whatever model year it is. Ford's recommendation is 150k miles. I'd probably consider 50-75k but that's just pulling numbers out of my ass if I'm being honest. But the premise being to watch what the fluid comes out like and if there's any sign of wear particles that could indicate the start of a failure. eCVTs by their nature don't have any wear components to them so on a healthy unit there shouldn't ever be any metal particles in the fluid. Changing early can give you a bit of a heads up before a more catastrophic failure. Fluid changes on these aren't difficult or expensive so IMHO it's worth doing so more often for peace of mind. If a potential failure can be caught early, the transmission can be pulled and opened up and get the transfer gear/bearing replaced at a fraction of the cost of replacing the entire transmission.

Edited October 30, 2023 by cr08

[C-Mc]

If these older model 2013 have very few miles on them will the battery still be in better shape or do they still degrade over time even when not in use?

[jestevens]

The problem with that might actually be lack of use. If the battery is left to discharge for a long time you might have other issues, but a low mileage 2017-18 from a climate that's not overly hot or too cold might maximize your longevity.