Ford to lower fuel economy rating on C-Max hybrid

[SnitGTS]

 don't see how 29 mpg would even be possible in our cmax. I've seen about that on short hops where I've accelerated quickly with no coasting, but even at 75-80 (before the update, in the rain, with family) I got 35 mpg.

 

Didn't someone figure out the 29 mpg figure was from a European non hybrid?

 

I did 'manage' to get a 33 mpg ride home once, but it was a horrible rainy day that I was stuck in horrendous traffic such that the car had to run the ICE to charge the battery several times because I wasn't moving at all in the traffic.  How someone "averages" 29 mpg I have no idea.

[Michigan Max]

I don't think I've EVER gotten the EPA mpgs on any car I've ever owned. I've never expected to get the EPA numbers because I always assumed those numbers were under ideal conditions.  I've read these 5 pages of "who to point the finger at" and who's at fault for the discrepancy between EPA numbers and actual numbers. Some people seem to be real passionate over this issue and continue to harp over and over in numerous posts. There are so many variables involved in what your mpgs will be it isn't funny. I'm no hyper miler, but I'm also no hot rod. I drive very moderately with no fast starts or hard braking unless necessary. Today I was on a little drive, about 5 miles at 70mph on the highway and the other 22 in regular city driving, 35-45mph. When I got home, this was my result:

NO special driving was done. Regular driving with traffic. I'm FREAKIN ECSTATIC with these results. I LOVE THIS CAR. Do I get this all the time? No. Did I get way worse in the winter? Yes. WAS THIS TO BE EXPECTED? YES. Unfortunately, in the world we live in, some people like to focus on the negative side of anything.

[viajero]

Also, testing at a single speed, ANY single speed, would be ludicrously easy to game, to tune a vehicle to perform extremely well on that test but perform poorly in real-world usage.

 

You've got it backwards.  Testing at a single speed would be impossible to game, especially for a long run.  Accelerating and decelerating are where the hybrid programming can be tweaked to match the test profile.

 

Also, for the highway case, a single speed IS real world conditions.  If you're not driving at a constant speed for a long time, I'd call that "city" or "combined", not highway.

[bigalpha]

I did 'manage' to get a 33 mpg ride home once, but it was a horrible rainy day that I was stuck in horrendous traffic such that the car had to run the ICE to charge the battery several times because I wasn't moving at all in the traffic.  How someone "averages" 29 mpg I have no idea.

 

I regularly get about 33mpg on my drive to work.

 

Today, I managed to get a solid 31.5 on a short road trip we took (Tucson, AZ to Patagonia, AZ).  

 

Both of the above values are for one-way trips.  The way back averages 40-44mpg.

[Noah Harbinger]

You've got it backwards.  Testing at a single speed would be impossible to game, especially for a long run.  Accelerating and decelerating are where the hybrid programming can be tweaked to match the test profile.

 

Also, for the highway case, a single speed IS real world conditions.  If you're not driving at a constant speed for a long time, I'd call that "city" or "combined", not highway.

 

For example, if you test at 70MPH for 2 hours, you can optimize the drive ratio so that the engine operates at its exact optimal speed/load point. Sure, that would be great for open road cruising. But what about urban freeways: If you're not driving at 3AM, you're probably not going to be setting the cruise control for very long.

[Jmonty]

I regularly get about 33mpg on my drive to work.

 

Today, I managed to get a solid 31.5 on a short road trip we took (Tucson, AZ to Patagonia, AZ).  

 

Both of the above values are for one-way trips.  The way back averages 40-44mpg.

 

 

ah, when i get ~35 mpg in town one way (uphill) i usually get 50-60+ mpg on the way back (downhill, depending on traffic).  there are a lot of long and steady elevation changes around there though.  

[SnitGTS]

 regularly get about 33mpg on my drive to work.

 

Today, I managed to get a solid 31.5 on a short road trip we took (Tucson, AZ to Patagonia, AZ).  

 

Both of the above values are for one-way trips.  The way back averages 40-44mpg.

 

That's pretty crazy, the only thing I can think of is you are doing mostly highway driving, the speed limit is probably 75+ where you are, you probably have the AC blasting being in AZ, when you are not driving 75+ you are in traffic, and there is an elevation change where work is higher.  If those things are true then your commute is a rough commute for a hybrid...  Does your mpg change much during the seasons?  (assuming you've had the car long enough)

 

My commute is pretty hybrid friendly, on my way to work I never top 55 mph and when I get to those speeds I'm on a highway that gently slopes downhill, the rest of my trip the speed limit is 35 or 40, and my averages to work are 65-70 mpg before the update and since the update 70-73 mpg.  I pay for the hill on the way back, but still my average is 45 mpg.  On my recent trip to Canada I averaged 40.7 mpg on the way up and 45.6 mpg on the way back. (average speed about 69 mph with AC on)

Edited August 18, 2013 by SnitGTS

[darrelld]

I regularly get about 33mpg on my drive to work.

 

Today, I managed to get a solid 31.5 on a short road trip we took (Tucson, AZ to Patagonia, AZ).  

 

Both of the above values are for one-way trips.  The way back averages 40-44mpg.

If temps are in the 95+ range mpg will take a big nosedive. If you look at my last few tanks in fuelly the mpg avg at those temps drops into the mid 30's. We had a few days where temps moderated back into the  70's and 80's and the tank average went up about 20% to the low 40's.

[bigalpha]

Yeah, my commute is about 80 miles, one way. Roughly half is interstate (75mph) and the other half is 65-. We so usually have the AC on, but it doesn't run full blast the whole way.

 

I'm only 2 tanks into the post update period, but it won't take long for me to get a larger sample set. I'm curious to see if the total volume of fuel used changed significantly. I track mileage and all the parameters from the Trip screen.

[C-MaxSea]

Ho Hum, another day of 47+ mpg.  This was last Tuesday - a round trip from Seattle to Shelton, mostly freeway (say 60-70%, 60mph), the rest beautiful windy country road. 

 

 

This whole EPA nonsense grinds my teeth.

 

47/47/47, 45/40/43  effectively a lie by nature of suggesting the definitive, regardless the numbers.

28-59 (whatever that quoted range is) a reasonable estimate of the truth and a most delicious opportunity - I think I may buy one of those marvelous vehicles; oh ya, I already have one!  :jump_earth:

 

The EPA should never have entertained comparative numbers, other than ranges.

 

(Just my 2 cents worth)

 

Nick

Edited August 18, 2013 by C-MaxSeattle

[ford]

My life time  47.3 -- Pittsburgh, Pa--- 5,000+ miles       I watch the brakes  and take it easy-- that's it

[Jmonty]

My life time 47.3 -- Pittsburgh, Pa--- 5,000+ miles I watch the brakes and take it easy-- that's it

Nice! My lifetime is 37.9 MPG, because it's still recovering from 2,800+ miles @ 70-80 MPH (35-37 MPG). It's ticking up slowly but surely though.

[wab]

 

This is a message that I copied from the OP's article.  It seems like there is a double standard.  It's OK to miss the city numbers compared to EPA but if the highway numbers miss that's a crime.  There are lot's of cars that really miss the city numbers bad.  

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130815/OEM05/130819953/ford-to-restate-fuel-economy-on-c-max-hybrid#axzz2c3aN1wrZ

 

 

 

 

 

bloggin

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With CR's testing, the Prius Liftback got 32mpg city when the EPA is 51. Which is 19 short of EPA for the city. But where it made gains was the hwy at 55 with EPA 48 with it's tiny engine. A gain of 7, which brought the Prius liftback to 12 below EPA 'combined'.

The C-MAX got 35 mpg city when EPA mpg 47. Which was 12 short of EPA for city. But since CR test was at 65 and hybrid drivetrain stopped at 62, the hwy was 41. Short 6. Which brought the C-MAX/Fusion Hybrid to 18 below.

So yes, based on CR testing, the Fusion/C-MAX Hybrids were 'combined' more below EPA combined, but the Prius Liftback was 19mpg short of city EPA and the both the Fusion/C-MAX Hybrids were 12.

For comparison, in the CR tests, the Prius C only got 37mpg city when the EPA was 53, but CR had nothing to say about that.

 

 

I can not believe that you would even hint that CR has an agenda!

You have been banished to my

 

"Someone who can read between the lines and think for himself"

list.

 

Shame on you, tisk tisk

[RaPieR]

I did 'manage' to get a 33 mpg ride home once, but it was a horrible rainy day that I was stuck in horrendous traffic such that the car had to run the ICE to charge the battery several times because I wasn't moving at all in the traffic.  How someone "averages" 29 mpg I have no idea.

 

It's pretty easy to get sub 30s if the driver isn't aware/paying attention or cares about mileage.  For example, I let my fiance drive in downtown Toronto this weekend.  On two seperate trips she averaged 28MPG and 29MPG.  Accelerating hard from stops.  She keeped ICE going to speed to the next light even though there was no way she was making the next light.  The C-Max really needs an ECO button to prevent wasting fuel like that.

[viajero]

For example, if you test at 70MPH for 2 hours, you can optimize the drive ratio so that the engine operates at its exact optimal speed/load point. Sure, that would be great for open road cruising. But what about urban freeways: If you're not driving at 3AM, you're probably not going to be setting the cruise control for very long.

 

You could choose the drive ratios to optimize for 70 mph, and probably improve mileage at at that speed by using a more powerful engine (Prius did this one one of their major model changes).  But, then you would suffer on the city mpg.

 

I'm not arguing that the constant speed test should be the only number; I'm just saying it should be the highway number, because it would be a more accurate estimate of how much gas you'd use for a cross-country road trip.

 

The combined rating should cover the urban freeways case, and the city should cover surface street driving.  The manufacturer could make design choices to trade off those numbers against each other as they saw fit, and buyers could make the choice on which kind of driving they do the most of.

[fotomoto]

It's pretty easy to get sub 30s if the driver isn't aware/paying attention or cares about mileage. 

 

 

I was WELL aware of what I was doing: eco-cruise @ the legal speed limit of 80mph on I-10 west in Texas last week.  :)   On the return leg, I was averaged 29.x due to a very strong headwind.  Oh BTW, you can still get into EV mode at those speeds now!  LOL

 

[RaPieR]

I was WELL aware of what I was doing: eco-cruise @ the legal speed limit of 80mph on I-10 west in Texas last week.   :)   On the return leg, I was averaged 29.x due to a very strong headwind.  Oh BTW, you can still get into EV mode at those speeds now!  LOL

 

Hehe, you were well aware and didn't care about mileage at that point.

 

I took a trip back home to Texas last year when I first bought the C-Max.  Those high highway speed limits really killed my overall mileage.  Add winter gas to the mix and I was averaging low thirties during my week in Texas.

[JAZ]

Yeah, what's up with Texas and fuel economy?  Lowest mpgs I ever recorded was upper 20s driving through Houston in a downpour.

[Fits2at]

I won't turn down the $550 but I will say that even before the updates I had done yesterday, I was getting the EPA rating. My best tank of gas was 52.3 mpg and 611 miles!!

[wab]

Hehe, you were well aware and didn't care about mileage at that point.

 

I took a trip back home to Texas last year when I first bought the C-Max.  Those high highway speed limits really killed my overall mileage.  Add winter gas to the mix and I was averaging low thirties during my week in Texas.

 

West Texas Intermediate (WTI), also known as Texas light sweet, is a grade of crude oil used as a benchmark in oil pricing.

 

That's why ALL LIGHT ARE RED IN Fort Worth TX.

 

We're also one of the TOP 10 cities with the worst traffic flow in the US!

[RaPieR]

West Texas Intermediate (WTI), also known as Texas light sweet, is a grade of crude oil used as a benchmark in oil pricing.

 

That's why ALL LIGHT ARE RED IN Fort Worth TX.

 

We're also one of the TOP 10 cities with the worst traffic flow in the US!

I was thinking more the speed limits in Texas highways are among the highest in the US affecting mileage.

[Jmonty]

I won't turn down the $550 but I will say that even before the updates I had done yesterday, I was getting the EPA rating. My best tank of gas was 52.3 mpg and 611 miles!!

Beautiful!

 

I figured out how to get 50+ mpg to and from work, but I doubt I could keep that up for a whole tank of gas.

[Noah Harbinger]

You could choose the drive ratios to optimize for 70 mph, and probably improve mileage at at that speed by using a more powerful engine (Prius did this one one of their major model changes).  But, then you would suffer on the city mpg.

 

I'm not arguing that the constant speed test should be the only number; I'm just saying it should be the highway number, because it would be a more accurate estimate of how much gas you'd use for a cross-country road trip.

 

The combined rating should cover the urban freeways case, and the city should cover surface street driving.  The manufacturer could make design choices to trade off those numbers against each other as they saw fit, and buyers could make the choice on which kind of driving they do the most of.

 

I would certainly never reject more data, but I think the fact that the current tests include a broad set of speed/acceleration situations is more important to assessing the overall capability of a vehicle. So few people drive cross-country or cross state, or do so for any significant percentage of their total mileage, that open inter-city highway is just not that significant to determining the relative operating cost of a vehicle. 

 

Heck I would love a heat-map with speed on the X-axis, acceleration on the Y-axis, and fuel economy represented by the color. And I would love to have a web tool to compare that heatmap between two vehicles to see where each vehicle does better than the other. And I would love to record a trace of my driving to superimpose over that comparison heatmap, to get an idea for my own driving patterns and habits whether one car would be better than the other. 

[Noah Harbinger]

West Texas Intermediate (WTI), also known as Texas light sweet, is a grade of crude oil used as a benchmark in oil pricing.

 

That's why ALL LIGHT ARE RED IN Fort Worth TX.

 

Yeah…. I seriously doubt there's a conspiracy to mis-time lights to drive up fuel use. 

[homestead]

Would be cool to have three seperate programs with optimizations for city,highway & combined that you could

load from a flash drive before going on a trip, or better yet have it be a menu choice on the touch screen.