Questions from a possible new owner

[BrentWI]

I am also looking at buying a C Max or Fusion. I like the idea of the hybrid and the electric/hybrid combo but nervous about making the leap from straight gas. I am looking for some feedback from real owners on some aspects of the vehicles that the dealerships may not be telling us. What are some costs that a new owner may not be aware of as it relates to general maintainence? For the Electric/Hybrid combo, how much does your electric bill go up monthly from charging the vehicle? Hybrid vs Electic/Hybrid combo? I think we would be a good candidate for the combo but concerned that the extra weight would decrease acceleration and passing speed on the highway. I'm sure I have several more question but these are some main issues the wife and I would like cleared up. Thank you.

[MikeB]

Hiya Brent.  I've got the Energi, which is the plug-in version of the C-Max. I assume that's what you mean by the Electric/Hybrid combo. Technically, the Hybrid is already a combination of gas and electric, but it doesn't let you fill the battery from the electric grid.

 

I love the Energi, and up front cost is really the strongest reason not to get it. Performance is excellent, surprisingly good for a vehicle focused on fuel economy. The gas engine isn't awesomely powerful, nor is the electric motor, but the combination of the two is very strong.

 

The Energi's battery is 7.6kWh, but you never really use all of that. A full charge costs me less than $0.75, and with that I can easily get 22-25 miles of all-electric driving. So your electricity bill does go up, but your gasoline bill goes down by a significantly more. While driving electric, and with current prices, it's like you're suddenly getting 100mpg instead of 40. You'll have to figure out how much electricity you'd use per month in order to figure out the final cost, but anyone who can charge daily and can do a significant number of electric miles will end up saving money. And when the battery is drained, the car still drives like a hybrid, so you'll see mpg numbers in the low 40s when doing long road trips.

 

As for maintenance, the electric side of the drivetrain has almost no maintenance. The gas side gets much less wear and tear, so it also needs less maintenance. For example, our oil change interval can be as high as 20,000 miles, since so many of those miles happen without the gas engine even starting. The batteries are expected to last the life of the car, and have a 100,000 mile warranty. And both the Hybrid and Energi put very little wear on the disk brakes, so brake dust on the wheels is almost non-existent.

 

The Energi is about 300lbs heavier than the Hybrid, but that type of weight is hard to notice with normal driving, even when passing. You'll quickly spot the space taken up by the larger battery in the cargo area, my cargo floor is raised about 9" compared to the Hybrid. There's still plenty of space overall, but not quite as much of it is below the privacy screen in the cargo area.

[BrentWI]

Sorry, yes I did mean the plug in energi, I should of made that more clear.  Thank you very much for your post.

[plus 3 golfer]

BrentWI, I've done detailed economic analysis of the plug-in Energi and the Hybid. The question of  the Energi vs Hybrid for me was a pure economical one. My off-peak energy rates are less than 8.5 cents/kWh but I have a PV solar system on my roof which would have lowered my electric cost to charge the Energi to 6.8 cents / kWh.  So the cost to charge for me would have been around $0.50 per charge had I bought the Energi.  

 

Based on the premium of about $2200+ (after tax credit) I would have paid for the Energi over the Hybrid (base Energi vs base SEL Hybrid), because I got an extra $1000 off the Hybrid that I didn't get off the Energi and how many miles I was going to drive beyond the all electric range, I could estimate my annual fuel and electric costs and compute the time until I would break even.  Based on my analysis I would have had to average of about 70 mpg in the Energi from my current 40 mpg for my Hybrid to have a payback of the premium of the Energi over the Hybrid in about 10 years.  The Energi was not cost effective for me.

 

I would need about a 40 mile all electric range or the ability to charge away from home for the Energi to make sense.  So, people buy cars for all reasons (not just economics) but if you are considering the Energi because you think it may be the most economical choice, I would do a "realistic" spreadsheet analysis to see if the Energi makes sense.  Also, remember the electric range depends on how fast you drive as aerodynamic drag eats up energy (electric or gas) in a hurry.

 

 

[zhackwyatt]

I made this.  Maybe it can be of help deciding.

 

http://gocalipso.com/2013/02/plugin-hybrid-energy-cost-comparison-calculator.php#post

[Tdefny]

Hi Brent,

 

Sorry to shamelessly copy my post verbatim from the Energi forum , but but I am on a tablet and typing is a pain, so here goes:

 

"I love my Energi and would choose it again. Having said that, I rented a Hybrid for a couple of days when I was in Florida and I hated to return it because it was the best car I have ever rented. Either way you can't lose.

 

I travel under 20 miles a day on most days, except for one day a week when my round trip is around 80. I use only electric on the short trip days and need to fill up about once a month overall, compared with twice a month (slightly smaller tank) in my Prius before I bought the Energi or weekly in the minivan. Electricity is very expensive here. We are at $0.21/KWH, which about matches the cost of gas on a per mile basis. I can't explain why, but my electrical usage is at or less than a year ago so my bill hasn't gone up. It must be that LED light bulb I bought :).

 

My car is achieving the mileage stated by the manufacturer with very little effort. I try for gentle starts and stops and usually don't exceed 65 MPH. That's about it. Oh yeah, I avoid the heat whenever possible. It is electric and can drastically reduce EV range on a cold day. Luckily the heated seats work very well and don't use a lot of power. "

 

Performance of either version is outstanding for a hybrid. And anticipated maintenance should be low for either. At 7500+ miles, I have not been back to the dealer yet, but will go before the oil is due for the software updates. Anticipated oil change should be between 10k and 20k miles based on engine run time and the oil life monitor. Any time you bring it in fora $30 oil change they somehow find a way to jack it up to around $300, so this alone should save plenty of $$$.

 

I think you need to try them both and pick what you like. There are many intangibles that go beyond simple payback. It is purely psychological, but I find that I am much less stressed in grinding traffic when I am in EV mode and it isn't hurting mileage or wearing out some part of the car. It always drove me crazy in the Prius when the ICE ran for any reason at those times. I have to weigh that against the taunts from my daughter about the size of the trunk. It is about double the cubic ft. of the trunk of my Prius but it doesn't feel that way if the cover is in place. In reality, we have made several trips to Costco and never had a problem with the haul. A full sized wheelbarrow, as has been reported elsewhere in this forum, would probably not fit in the Energi, but I still have the minivan for that sort of haul.

[homestead]

I made this.  Maybe it can be of help deciding.

 

http://gocalipso.com/2013/02/plugin-hybrid-energy-cost-comparison-calculator.php#post

Very nice calculator, you need to update the Cmax hybrid to 43 mpg

[zhackwyatt]

Very nice calculator, you need to update the Cmax hybrid to 43 mpg

Good point, fixed.

[Jus-A-CMax]

I made this.  Maybe it can be of help deciding.

 

http://gocalipso.com/2013/02/plugin-hybrid-energy-cost-comparison-calculator.php#post

 

Put this in a thread by itself and I will pin it :)

Edited August 20, 2013 by Jus-A-CMax

[salsaguy]

before you decide to get the plugin Energi model. be sure to go in person to look at just how much LESS trunk/hatch space you have compared to the hybrid only. it's a deal breaker for most as you can't carry that much in the plugin version. take a test drive and simulate in your head how much you normally carry around each week (groceries, etc) before making a decision. some states offer incentives on tax rebates for the Energi but you need to know the restrictions to be sure you get it all.

glad I'm not the only potential cmax owner here doing lots of research.... :.  )

welcome aboard. have fun.

[fotomoto]

Very nice calculator, you need to update the Cmax hybrid to 43 mpg

 

And the Volt is rated at 38 miles now.  

 

Also, the annual costs chart is very hard to read.  I'd suggest labeling the vehicles in the order they end up ranking on the right side of the chart (gas guzzler at the top, leaf/BEV at the bottom).  You'd probably need to draw arrows to the tight group around the $1500 zone or.......... just make the chart much larger for better spacing.  Nice blog!

 

 

Payback cost is a slippery slope.  How soon will the handsfree lift gate pay back?   I wanted the backup camera and smart key access.  To get those, I had to go up to an SEL which costs me about as much as going from the SEL hybrid to an Energi (with tax incentives).  I don't think anyone will ever question me on the length of payback for those features even though the SEL has no FE advantage over an SE.   :)

 

The point of a plug-in is reducing one's oil usage while using more domestically produced energy (electricity).  Lower running costs are just icing on the cake.  Actually the silent, powerful torque of a strong EV powertrain is the icing on the cake   :happy feet:  but that's another thread.......

[viajero]

The reduced cargo space of the Energi almost scared me away, but I did get the Energi and am happy with it.  I posted some pictures on the Energi forum to give some idea of how much space is available with some everyday items.

 

http://fordcmaxenergiforum.com/gallery/image/53-cargo-space/

 

The Energi is only available in the higher trim level, which adds to the cost.  If you want the higher trim level, the federal tax credit makes it not that much more than the hybrid (incentives/discounts vary on each from place to place and month to month).

 

The electric/gas cost difference you'll have to calculate yourself because electric rates and gas prices vary so much from city to city.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I was moving from a bigger vehicle to a smaller one.  I was worried enough about whether everything would fit inside of the hybrid version.  So, I never even got to the point of considering the plug-in version in any kind of serious way.  Some thoughts to consider include whether you will realistically ever need the additional space.

 

Beyond that, things would also depend on charging.  You may have enough juice to make your full daily commute on the charge you start out with in the morning.  If not, you have to consider whether there are charging stations in your commute locations, or whether you will have to install one, or whether you are okay with burning a little gas on your ride.

 

If you are going to install charging stations, consider the cost, the tax consequences, and the savings over your time of anticipated ownership.  Consider charge times and cost for the various charging configurations.

 

So long as the space isn't critical, numbers would be one way to consider the decision.  However, even if it doesn't make economic sense, you may just decide that you like the Energi better, and get it "just because."

 

It's all good.  :hat_tip:

[salsaguy]

http://fordcmaxenergiforum.com/gallery/image/53-cargo-space/

 

very cool pix and charts.i see you are an engineer type like me and like data analysis.would love to see more of your info here in our forums. how are you liking your scan gage? has it helped(paid for itself yet) ;)

Edited August 21, 2013 by salsaguy

[darrelld]

The only thing that kept me from buying an Energi over my Hybrid was concern over battery longevity charging in high ambient temps. Can any Energi owners confirm if the interior AC does indeed switch on while charging from an outlet at 100+ outside temps?

[fbov]

I am also looking at buying a C Max ...What are some costs ... how much does your electric bill go up ...concerned that the extra weight would decrease acceleration and passing speed ... these are some main issues the wife and I would like cleared up. Thank you.

You're asking the wrong questions, or at least not asking any of the right questions.

 

GO DRIVE ONE.

 

And I don't mean for mileage, that's a given, but rather for fun. This thing is more of a go-kart that anyone expected. It may be heavy, but the weight is carried low, and the added low end torque of the EV side means this thing can scoot! Smokey burnouts are a possibility, and the autocrosser in me finds it very easy to carry speed in the turns. Very fast steering with a very responsive suspension and a torquey motor make for an altogether unexpectedly fun ride.

 

All that financial stuff will sort itself out; disaster stories would be easy to find, and I haven't found one in a month of research. What I did find was a lot of folks traveling on gas-by-the-drop, and talking about how much fun they're having with the car.

 

The right question is if that much fun is worth the price... I see no reason it wouldn't.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[zhackwyatt]

Put this in a thread by itself and I will pin it :)

Ask and you shall receive: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/2821-c-max-hybrid-vs-c-max-energi-which-should-you-buy/?p=30341

[Jus-A-CMax]

Ask and you shall receive: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/2821-c-max-hybrid-vs-c-max-energi-which-should-you-buy/?p=30341

Thank you sir - Pinned!!!! :)

[Altazi]

If you have items you normally carry, you should take them with you to the dealership and see how they fit in the car.

 

We regularly travel between homes and take certain items.  When we were looking at the C-Max & the Prius V, I took a suitcase and a cooler.  They fit with ease in the Prius V, but that car was way underpowered, noisy, and just didn't feel as "nice" as the C-Max.

 

I wanted an Energi, but my items simply didn't fit in the back due to the space lost to the larger battery, unless I folded down the rear seats - a no-go.  I went with the C-Max hybrid SEL, and am very happy with it.  I do miss the storage space that the Prius V had - not just in the rear, but the little nooks & crannies readily available from the driver's space, e.g., place to set a notepad, pen, cell phone, etc.  The C-Max's central bin under the armrest is DEEP, and holds quite a bit, but it is not really convenient.

 

Good luck with your shopping!

[slampro]

The lack of cargo space, and the fact that it does not sit flat with rear seats down is THE only reason we did not get an Energi. When we take the piano action(keys, hammers, etc) out. It is a framed piece. It MUST be on a flat surface. Not kinda flat, not propped up to be flat. A $20,000 action from a $100,000 Steinway concert grand piano can be very finicky. If the Energi would have had a flat area with seats down, we would have one.

[nsteblay]

I bought the C-Max Hybrid last October and am loving it.  It feels like a cross-over to me (also own a Honda CRV)  but I'm getting 47+ this spring and summer.  My kids have named it the Cardis after the Dr. Who TV series Tardis - it's larger on the inside than on the outside!  (Sorry we're kind of geeks.)

 

The tech has really stabilized and has many cool features. It is spunky.  I travel for work and get rental cars quite often.  Rented a Prius once, great mileage but I felt like I was driving an appliance not a car.  I also rented a VW Jetta and was surprised that my little C-Max had snappier acceleration and better handling.  

 

The only downer at this point is the hit MPG takes in the winter (live in Minnesota).  There was a recent software upgrade that is suppose to help in cold weather.  We'll see this winter.

[viajero]

http://fordcmaxenergiforum.com/gallery/image/53-cargo-space/

 

very cool pix and charts.i see you are an engineer type like me and like data analysis.would love to see more of your info here in our forums. how are you liking your scan gage? has it helped(paid for itself yet) ;)

 

I had the Scangauge from 2 cars ago; on previous cars I experimented with the effect various driving styles have on fuel consumption.  I was surprised at how little effect gentle vs. rapid driving had on the mpg of an ICE car.

 

Since the C-max has multiple trip computers and instantaneous mpg, I actually didn't install it until someone posted some codes on the Energi forum.  Now I use it to monitor battery temperature and state of charge, as well as the dreaded 12V battery voltage.

[rfruth]

How is the (traction) battery temp after a longish drive in Texas (15 + miles) A/C ?

[viajero]

The battery temperature depends  a lot on the recent history.  It stays roughly constant while charging or while driving on low-speed city streets with stoplights.  When just sitting there it cools down very slowly.  When driving on the highway it increases rapidly, 10-15 F in the course of using a full charge.

 

As an example, my car sat in the garage last night.  When I got in, the garage temperature was in the low 80s and the battery temperature was about 94.  I drove 15 miles to downtown, mostly freeway but with about 400 feet of downhill, and the battery was at 102.  I plugged in to a public charger in a garage, went running for a couple hours, and came back to find the battery full and its temperature at 102.  Then I drove back on the freeway, uphill this time.  I took a side trip to get some lunch, and after about 15 miles of driving the battery temperature hit 113, at which threshold the ICE started running even though the battery still had charge.

 

While driving I had the A/C at 72, and had pre-cooled the car.  I've found that the cabin temperature doesn't affect the battery temperature as much as I thought it would.  The battery temperature at the end of a trip mainly depends on the temperature at the start of the trip and how hard you drive it.

 

The result is that in the summer in Texas you will not be able to drive as many pure EV miles as a fast charger could give you, because the battery hits its temperature limit and the ICE comes on.  Once it's in hybrid mode, the battery temperature doesn't increase much, if any.  If the ICE comes on due to overtemperature and there's still charge left in the "big battery"  the Energi will go into an ICE running, charge depleting mode where it gets more EV power and less ICE power than regular hybrid mode, yielding about 80 mpg.

[xphotoguy]

If you have items you normally carry, you should take them with you to the dealership and see how they fit in the car.

 

We regularly travel between homes and take certain items.  When we were looking at the C-Max & the Prius V, I took a suitcase and a cooler.  They fit with ease in the Prius V, but that car was way underpowered, noisy, and just didn't feel as "nice" as the C-Max.

 

I wanted an Energi, but my items simply didn't fit in the back due to the space lost to the larger battery, unless I folded down the rear seats - a no-go.  I went with the C-Max hybrid SEL, and am very happy with it.  I do miss the storage space that the Prius V had - not just in the rear, but the little nooks & crannies readily available from the driver's space, e.g., place to set a notepad, pen, cell phone, etc.  The C-Max's central bin under the armrest is DEEP, and holds quite a bit, but it is not really convenient.

 

Good luck with your shopping!

Slampro; Don't forget the 2 storage areas in the floors behind the front seats. They hold more than they look like they should.  :camera: