Recurrence of battery failure

[ptjones]

My battery was replaced by the dealer on May 8, 2014 for the second time, after the battery tested bad (first time was October, 2013).  Ford then sent one of their field engineers to review and service the car on May 29.  This morning, my battery was dead again.  Less than two months since the battery was replaced.

 

I have a voltage meter plugged into the 12v jack in the trunk compartment.  I've been checking it every morning before I unlock the car, so it reflects the accurate "sleep" state voltage.  For the past week, it has been 12.5v, which according to this chart, means roughly 90% charge.  I also, fortunately, checked it last night when I took the trash out around 1am, and it was still at 12.5v.  This morning at 9:30am, the car was dead, and the voltmeter read 5.2v.  I had Ford Roadside Assistance come and jump the car.

 

Between May 8 and today I've had no problems.  But, for some reason, overnight, *poof* the battery discharged.  I have no explanation.  It rained *hard* on Monday, but nothing since, and I haven't had the car washed recently, so I don't see how water intrusion could be a problem in this case.  The car was locked this morning, so it wasn't that I left it unlocked.  Ford has applied all of the software updates (at least up to May 29, including the DC-to-DC converter update), so it's current.  I'm not totally up to speed on all the latest dead battery news, but those are all of the potential causes I'm aware of.

 

I don't see how charging the battery every 3 months would do anything, given that it died in less than two months on a brand new battery.  Ford has had my car for about two weeks over the past year to try and diagnose it, and I have an ammeter that I've used as well, clamped around the negative cable coming off of the battery, to perform my own parasitic load test - there is no parasitic load under normal circumstances.  There's clearly something that triggers a problem under very specific, rare, occasions.  Or, perhaps, the 12v battery is just under-engineered.  Coincidentally, I've noticed all of my "dead car" issues have occurred when the overnight temperature was in the upper 50's, so perhaps that's also a clue.

 

I dunno.  I sincerely hope Ford can solve the problem soon, because yeah this is an amazing car, but this battery problem sucks.

I would have a jumper battery to turn this into an annoyance, until FORD figures it out. It doesn't need to be like a flat tire.  My power Point voltage is 11.6volts when it has been sitting overnite in the garage, .2vmore at battery and still no problems in almost two years and 66K miles. :) 

 

Paul

[CMax-Traveler]

I would have a jumper battery to turn this into an annoyance, until FORD figures it out. It doesn't need to be like a flat tire.  My power Point voltage is 11.6volts when it has been sitting overnite in the garage, .2vmore at battery and still no problems in almost two years and 66K miles. :)

 

Paul,  I don't disagree with you.  I was genuinely hoping Ford had figured out and fixed the problem.  So now I probably will get one, I just don't see why I should have to buy one - if anything, Ford should pay for it.  I just have two concerns.  First concern, which I've seen expressed elsewhere, is that the jumper battery packs are unreliable, in that if you don't regularly use them and/or boost their charge weekly, you may end up with both a dead car and a dead jumper battery.  The other issue with using the jumper pack is that if it dies and you have to jump it, Ford has no record of it; without the jumper pack, they at least have the roadside assistance call records.

 

I'm very jealous of your 2 years / 66K miles with no problems - it seems clear that this is only a problem with some C-Max cars, not all of them, and there doesn't even seem to be a pattern, other than fewer SEL's than SE's have the issue, and even fewer Energi's.  For those of you who don't have this issue, the C-Max is an absolutely amazing car.  For those of us with the problem, the C-Max is still great, but not knowing if your car is going to start is nerve-racking, and when it doesn't start, it's beyond annoying.  Just luck of the draw, and I drew the short straw.

 

You have some pretty good data there, and I assume you've passed it on to Ford.

 

I also assume your car is parked outside at night?  I wonder what percentage of battery problems occur in a garage versus outside.  Not that I could imagine what that has to do with it, but it's still more data for Ford to tabulate and to try and figure out what's happening.  

 

If I were Ford I'd want a car like yours because it's very likely they *could* successfully diagnose what was going on (like perhaps hooking it up to a monitor that also records temps and other conditions).  For that reason alone I'd want to buy your car back (again, if I were their engineers).  Just based on a career of troubleshooting computer problems, it's having one solid case that you can work on that could go a long way towards solving ALL these issues (then again, what do I understand about auto maker politics -- it just seems to me they could save a ton of money in the long run if they had four or five cars like yours they could set up in test cases to get it solved once and for all).

 

I don't think Ford wants to talk to me any more.  I'm pretty sure they just want me to go away.  (Not talking about my dealer, they're great; I mean Ford corporate).  I posted it here in the hopes that maybe someone from Ford Engineering is reading this thread and could use the data point for their benefit.

 

Yes, my car sits outside - but it seemed from what I had read on here that more people with this problem had their cars parked in garages than outside.  The challenge is that the car basically needs to be driven and monitored constantly, and the problem might appear tomorrow or might not appear for 3-6 months -- that's how intermittent it is.  I'm also a computer engineer, so I know this type of intermittent problem is horribly annoying as the engineer trying to solve the problem, and which is also probably why we haven't yet seen a definitive fix.

 

Interestingly, after dying today and having it jumped, I noticed an added draw on the "accessory" battery draw gauge that I setup on MyView for about an hour of driving (the 120v must've been recharging the 12v), and tonight the voltage monitor is sitting at 13.0 - higher than it has been in "sleep" state since I started monitoring it in late June.

 

Anyway, Happy C-Max'ing, everyone, I'll post more later if I have more data or come to a resolution.

Edited August 1, 2014 by CMax-Traveler

[drdiesel1]

drdiesel1,

 

You can believe what you like, but I find your "belief" amazing in light of everything that has been written here about the battery draining problem.  If it was as easy as properly charging a battery, Ford wouldn't have been having to buy back cars.  And it's scarcely a matter of "trusting" the dealer.  After the most recent incident, the dealer kept my car for over two weeks trying to solve the problem.  They were in constant touch with Ford.  Ford called me back and told me that they were unable to solve the problem and were "escalating" it to Engineering.  Engineering is now saying that they hope to have a solution by the end of the third quarter (beginning of October).  

 

Also, my battery has NOT been "low all it's life, dead and only jump started."  The dealer gave me a NEW battery in mid-December after they did the 13B12 fix.  In early February, I had a dead battery.  That's much less than three months.  

 

Why do a small number of people on this forum keep trying to insist that the problem is with customer or the dealer rather than with the car?  Ford knows the problem is with the car.  So why don't you?  

Never at anytime did, I EVER say this. You're  reading into my statements and coming away with what you want to hear :drop:

 

Good luck. I can understand why they don't care to talk to you any further.

Bullheadedness is difficult to deal with, even on a forum. I'm not saying this to be mean, either.

You need to expand your insight and allow someone to try and help you.

Edited August 1, 2014 by drdiesel1

[Jus-A-CMax]

:judge:

 

Ok BullDurham and DrD, everyone back to the corners and take a gulp of ice cold water to cool off...

[FordService]

Hi everybody,

 

Like Ashley before me, I don't have direct access to our engineering folks, but I do want to help however I can. Whenever you're having an issue with your battery, I recommend getting it documented and diagnosed at your dealership. This is actually the best way to get concrete data into the hands of our engineering team. Info that is collected at the dealership level is how they discover common issues; from there, they can determine if there's any commonalities among affected vehicles and come up with a solution that will help everyone. 

 

Once you've had your trip to the dealership, send me a quick PM so I can alert your regional customer service managers. If you've had a case opened for you in the past, all I'll need is your current mileage and a verification of your best daytime contact info. If this is your first time reaching out, I'll need the whole enchilada: your full name, best daytime phone number, VIN, mileage, and preferred servicing dealership. 

 

Crystal

[Rick]

With 20,000 plus parts, sensors, additional "hybrid" computer code, it really does seem to be luck of the draw.  
Also, in IT, large software programs have a stage called (POC) Proof of concept.  Where the vender/cust work together to get the software (can take months/years) to a point where it is 99% error free, and then can be implemented.

Thought of this reading your comment Crystal...

"get concrete data into the hands of our engineering team. Info that is collected at the dealership level is how they discover common issues; from there, they can determine if there's any commonalities among affected vehicles and come up with a solution that will help everyone."

Hope they can determine this battery issue for you c-max traveler


(edit) and others soon!!  

 

COULD THE BRAND OF BATTERY BE INCOMPATIBLE WITH OTHER COMPONENTS of C-MAX?

Edited August 1, 2014 by Rick

[Jus-A-CMax]

Thanks Crystal! If I know Engineers, they are like IT folks - extremely inquisitive about issues especially when its random...hope they may raise a ear or 2 over in Fordland. Plus theres nothing better than solving a painful issue for the company...if u get my drift Crystal(Ford)  ;)

 

Hope this helps C-max traveller, keep us informed and best wishes & luck at a solution.

[YakMax]

Before we bought our C-Max, I went to car shows and was really excited about this new Ford product. Last year, we purchased a new C-Max and my wife was excited to have her first new car.

 

Long story short, we have had three battery failures or I should clarify, dead battery experiences and my wife is ready to just give up on this Ford product. I really enjoy the car, but this is her personal transportation to and from work. To top that off, she tried to call me this morning when the battery failed and I had forgot to turn on my cell phone!! It is really hard to think of letting this car go and I am not sure what to do next since Ford has failed to get a handle on this situation. The things that were important like the decent gas mileage have all but been forgotton compared to lack of having reliable transportation. I know there are others going through the same experience but it is personal when there is little recourse available that makes sense in the long term.

 

I never thought I would be venting on this forum, so apologize I must! I just wish the reality was something different in my case.

[Rick]

Decided to pull the trigger late, last night, and buy base SEL.   Went into dealer, (terrific dealer and great sales guy!!!) checkbook in hand.

Our definitions of great month-end-deal (July 31) ended up being $400 apart.  I left dealership at closing (without new car) to ponder.   Today I'm reading this whole thread, (had read just 3 entries before).  

So this forum is reliable, well laid out, with great participation and helping tips.  I give it a 10 out of 10 !

Stuff happens, think I'll wait n watch a bit more then.   Thanking you all again.

 

[Jus-A-CMax]

Before we bought our C-Max, I went to car shows and was really excited about this new Ford product. Last year, we purchased a new C-Max and my wife was excited to have her first new car.

 

Long story short, we have had three battery failures or I should clarify, dead battery experiences and my wife is ready to just give up on this Ford product. I really enjoy the car, but this is her personal transportation to and from work. To top that off, she tried to call me this morning when the battery failed and I had forgot to turn on my cell phone!! It is really hard to think of letting this car go and I am not sure what to do next since Ford has failed to get a handle on this situation. The things that were important like the decent gas mileage have all but been forgotton compared to lack of having reliable transportation. I know there are others going through the same experience but it is personal when there is little recourse available that makes sense in the long term.

 

I never thought I would be venting on this forum, so apologize I must! I just wish the reality was something different in my case.

 

Please feel free to PM Crystal about your issue (see her post above). Never know what a little attention can remedy. Thanks for posting.

[drdiesel1]

Decided to pull the trigger late, last night, and buy base SEL.   Went into dealer, (terrific dealer and great sales guy!!!) checkbook in hand.

 

Our definitions of great month-end-deal (July 31) ended up being $400 apart.  I left dealership at closing (without new car) to ponder.   Today I'm reading this whole thread, (had read just 3 entries before).  

 

So this forum is reliable, well laid out, with great participation and helping tips.  I give it a 10 out of 10 !

 

Stuff happens, think I'll wait n watch a bit more then.   Thanking you all again.

 

 

With the Ford rebates on the Energi, you can buy it for the same price as the Hybrid.  Never had this problem with either of my NRG's.

 

From the info I've seen on the internet, the problems are more with the SE "VS" the SEL.

Edited August 2, 2014 by drdiesel1

[mlsstl]

With the Ford rebates on the Energi, you can buy it for the same price as the Hybrid.  Never had this problem with either of my NRG's.

 

From the info I've seen on the internet, the problems are more with the SE "VS" the SEL.

 

Two comments. First, in my area (eastern Missouri), there are very few C-Maxes of any type on dealer lots at this time. One dealer was completely out of them and most of them had just one or two. If you're shopping for a C-Max, there's not much to choose from compared to the fairly wide selection just two or three months ago. Maybe that's due to the run-out of the 2014 model year. If so, the 2015s will have to be released before there's much selection again.

 

Second, the last time I counted the reports of battery problems on this site, 66% were the SE model, 20% were SEL and 14% Energi. However, one needs to know the sales volume by model for those numbers to be correctly interpreted. One would reasonably expect the SE to be the most popular model due to its lower cost, and the Energi the lowest volume seller due to its higher cost and loss of trunk space due to the larger battery, but I've never seen Ford provide those figures.

 

As such, there is a fairly good chance that the percentage of battery-problems-by-model figures tracks closely to the relative numbers of each type sold. If so, that means one's chance of ending up with a battery-problem car are about the same no matter which model one buys.

 

So, we're back to Ford needing to truly figure out the underlying cause of the issue. It's tough to fix things when no one still reallly knows what is causing the problem.

[drdiesel1]

Finding a parasitic load isn't rocket science. I do it all the time on GM's, Ford's, Toyota's, Chrysler's,

Honda's, and whatever vehicle comes into the shop with battery draw problems. Been doing it since 1976

[mlsstl]

Finding a parasitic load isn't rocket science. I do it all the time on GM's, Ford's, Toyota's, Chrysler's,

Honda's, and whatever vehicle comes into the shop with battery draw problems. Been doing it since 1976

 

Maybe Ford should hire you. ;-)

 

Many of the C-Max owners with battery problems seem to have repeated occurrences that have been difficult or even impossible to find and fix, even when Ford engineering becomes involved, triggering lemon law buybacks. I'd like to think that Ford engineers are pretty sharp.

 

As noted before, one doesn't have to read too far in this forum to find owners whose cars have been in the shop time after time, often for weeks while the owner drives a loaner. That doesn't inspire confidence in the car.

[plus 3 golfer]

Finding a parasitic load isn't rocket science. I do it all the time on GM's, Ford's, Toyota's, Chrysler's,

Honda's, and whatever vehicle comes into the shop with battery draw problems. Been doing it since 1976

Probably true, if the load is there all the time.  But, apparently whatever triggers the event happens infrequently.  One would likely have to put monitoring equipment on the circuits of buyback cars, put the car back into use under similar conditions that caused the dead batteries, and hope the problem reoccurs.  Even, then it may very difficult to trace the problem to a sequence of events that caused a module to wake up, an intermittent path to ground, and so forth because the cause may no longer be active. 

[wab]

Probably true, if the load is there all the time.  But, apparently whatever triggers the event happens infrequently.  One would likely have to put monitoring equipment on the circuits of buyback cars, put the car back into use under similar conditions that caused the dead batteries, and hope the problem reoccurs.  Even, then it may very difficult to trace the problem to a sequence of events that caused a module to wake up, an intermittent path to ground, and so forth because the cause may no longer be active. 

 

Apparently the dead 12V problem is one of those rare situations when multiple problems result in the exact same trouble.

I've seen it in telecommunications a few times.

 

cause #1 water in unused elec connectors = dead 12V.

cause #2 bad batch of base se radios = dead 12v.

cause #3 water in water pump electric connector (similar to #1) = dead 12v.

 

All of these were fairly hard to find BUT WHEN 2 or more happen to the same car = almost impossible to find, because the trouble is never there when the tech is looking for it and it moves from one cause to another.

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by wab

[drdiesel1]

All very good points. Yes, monitoring equipment is needed. It's a game of verification and isolation.

[ptjones]

Two comments. First, in my area (eastern Missouri), there are very few C-Maxes of any type on dealer lots at this time. One dealer was completely out of them and most of them had just one or two. If you're shopping for a C-Max, there's not much to choose from compared to the fairly wide selection just two or three months ago. Maybe that's due to the run-out of the 2014 model year. If so, the 2015s will have to be released before there's much selection again.

 

Second, the last time I counted the reports of battery problems on this site, 66% were the SE model, 20% were SEL and 14% Energi. However, one needs to know the sales volume by model for those numbers to be correctly interpreted. One would reasonably expect the SE to be the most popular model due to its lower cost, and the Energi the lowest volume seller due to its higher cost and loss of trunk space due to the larger battery, but I've never seen Ford provide those figures.

 

As such, there is a fairly good chance that the percentage of battery-problems-by-model figures tracks closely to the relative numbers of each type sold. If so, that means one's chance of ending up with a battery-problem car are about the same no matter which model one buys.

 

So, we're back to Ford needing to truly figure out the underlying cause of the issue. It's tough to fix things when no one still reallly knows what is causing the problem.

I did a check of CMAX availability in the greater Atlanta Area and there are 2 to 1 SEL to SE on dealer lots which would imply that Dealers are selling alot more SEL than SE. I suspect Dealers have SE's to get customers attention and then move them up to SEL to get all the extra features. IMO. It still looks like the battery problem effects a very small percentage of cars. If I was going to buy a CMAX now I would get a 2013 SEL used with low miles, no battery history, no roof and park assist so that I would still have a LifeTime Score when I shut the car off. Otherwise for 2014 never reset Trip #2, but it doesn't give a Brake Score. :) 

 

Paul 

[drdiesel1]

My 2014 Energi 303A package was $27,400.00 after rebated and discounts. Why would you buy the Hybrid  ;)

No pano roof :spend:

Edited August 3, 2014 by drdiesel1

[ptjones]

My 2014 Energi 303A package was $27,400.00 after rebated and discounts. Why would you buy the Hybrid  ;)

No pano roof :spend:

The Extra space and you can get used 2013 SEL for around $20K. IMO :) 

 

Paul

[mlsstl]

I did a check of CMAX availability in the greater Atlanta Area and there are 2 to 1 SEL to SE on dealer lots which would imply that Dealers are selling alot more SEL than SE. I suspect Dealers have SE's to get customers attention and then move them up to SEL to get all the extra features. IMO. It still looks like the battery problem effects a very small percentage of cars. If I was going to buy a CMAX now I would get a 2013 SEL used with low miles, no battery history, no roof and park assist so that I would still have a LifeTime Score when I shut the car off. Otherwise for 2014 never reset Trip #2, but it doesn't give a Brake Score. :)

 

Paul 

 

Nice theory, but I rather doubt that the SEL outsells the SE. The C-Max inventory in the St. Louis area is very low right now compared to this Spring when I began following the car. It's highly unlikely that model year leftover inventory in August is representative of the overall sales volume of the three model options. When I became interested in the car several months ago, I followed area dealer inventory fairly close. This Spring, when the inventory was much higher than what it is now, most of the dealers had 2 or 3 times the number of SEs compared to SELs, with few new ones arriving as existing ones sold.

 

To me, that strongly suggests that the rate of battery problems is fairly similar between the model types.

 

However, unless Ford releases official sales figures by model along with the battery incident rates, we can only conjecture.

[ptjones]

Auto Trader has listed 208SE and 515SEL for sale also CARMAX listed 12SE and 22SEL's. My check of the Atlanta Area Dealers had 99 CMAX's 33SE and 66SEL's  so it looks like a two to one is going to be pretty close. I don't see anything that points to anything different. :) 

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

Auto Trader has listed 208SE and 515SEL for sale also CARMAX listed 12SE and 22SEL's. My check of the Atlanta Area Dealers had 99 CMAX's 33SE and 66SEL's so it looks like a two to one is going to be pretty close. I don't see anything that points to anything different. :)

 

Paul

^Agree^ - there appears to be significantly more SELs than SEs.

 

Arizona Ford dealers (I think I got them all) have 86 C-Max Hybrids listed in inventory - 49 SELs and 37 SEs. Anytime I've checked there were more SELs in inventory than SEs.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[mlsstl]

Thanks for the info. As noted, those SE/SEL ratios don't match my experience in St. Louis when I was shopping this Spring, so perhaps it varies by local markets. In any case, the ultimate authority would be Ford's production numbers, which I've never seen broken out by model.

 

Or, perhaps the SE is truly the battery scourge for still unknown reasons. That is certainly a possibility, though none of the models seem immune from the problem.

 

I'm still hopeful that the problem gets clearly and convincingly fixed someday.

[kostby]

The only reliable measure of cars sold is…

 

Cars sold!

 

We can speculate all day, but vehicles in dealer inventory are not a reliable guide to which model sells better. The small local Ford dealer has had the same new SE in inventory for at least 5 months, sold none, and apparently sold zero new SEL's in that same time period - haven't seen any on the lot, on-line inventory, nor any sitting outside the dealership all shined-up for delivery. So tell me, which one is selling better?

Edited August 4, 2014 by kostby