Lemon Law & Buy Back Info and Experience

[Kelleytoons]

My first wife was... well, let's say it was less than glorious.  Didn't stop me from marrying again right away (hate to admit how soon) and a woman who was so much alike in *some* things it was scary.

 

We're celebrating nearly 30 years of (mostly) wedded bliss.  So, no, your analogy is false.  I would NOT blame one car in a maker's lineup for a maker's inability to get it right.  And I haven't (I have bought from lines that gave me grief in other models).  As I said, if I didn't I would have run out of maker's a long time ago.  Sometimes you must let common sense rule and not your emotions (actually, ALL the time but no one is that perfect).

Edited January 22, 2015 by Kelleytoons

[Adrian_L]

No my analogy was sound.  You just got lucky.

 

I wouldn't blame Ford for one bad C-max either.  That wasn't the point.  Your argument was that the chances of getting a second lemon was somehow lower if your first was a lemon.  This simply makes no logical sense.  It's like saying you're likely to hit black on Roulette because the last spin was red.

 

If I did own a "lemon" and someone told me to buy the same car again, I'd seriously question their "common sense".

Edited January 23, 2015 by Adrian_L

[Kelleytoons]

Oh, I see what you were trying to say.

 

Right, the Garp thing was just for fun's sake.  (Although it does make a certain kind of sense).  I assume (without checking) that I posted the video link.  If not, my bad, because that's the whole point (and I will if you want to see it).

 

The gambler's fallacy is based on assuming the past will influence the future, as I'm well aware of.  But, truly, all seriousness aside, if I had a lemon in a particular model it would really depend on WHAT the "lemony" aspects of that model were.

 

To use the wife analogy (always dangerous in oh so many ways :>) and which is why you're wrong about it, women share a ton of similarities (but, no, I don't think that "in the dark, all cats are black").  Saying you shouldn't try another because you got a broken one is erroneous because of a lot of things, not the least of which is there isn't many alternatives (although someone once said that being bisexual doubles your chance of a date on Saturday night).  But it's also important to identify exactly what the problem was.

 

If I had a C-Max with a battery issue, and I came to a forum like this, I might well think I shouldn't try another one, particularly if the dealer wasn't helpful at all in resolving it.  OTOH, I would also do due diligence and ask folks here who *haven't* had issues what they thought.  If there were enough things about the woman, um, car that attracted me to her in the first place, I'd go ahead and take the plunge but keep a careful eye out again for the warning signs (which is what I did -- as I said, many decades later it appears to be working out, although my wife would argue it's still a work in progress).

 

But, I want to close with a Real Life example that does prove you wrong, no BS or joking about it.  I absolutely LOVED the Bose Soundtrue on-ear Bluetooth headphones.  They were light, portable, and had great sound.  Unfortunately, they also didn't work properly with my iPhone (I won't go into the details).  I worked with Bose for nearly a month without being able to resolve it, so I returned them to Amazon.

 

A few weeks later I found (on a forum :>) someone who suggested I may have just gotten (you guessed it) a lemon.  Okay, so I ordered another pair from Amazon and... didn't work.  Now, returning them got more problematic, as Amazon was getting a bit mad at me (also a long story -- suffice it to say that their return policy isn't as clear cut as they make it out to be).

 

I went through the equivalent of a "lemon-buy back" and all was well.  Except (did you guess it?) a few months later Bose contacted me and assured me they had a fix.  So I ordered yet one more time... and yet one more time it didn't work (and went back but THAT horror story is best left untold).

 

Now I will admit this is no where near the expense or trouble of a car that didn't work but... I still, as burned as I was, continued to try with that model headphone.  Why?  Because in all other aspects it was perfect.  Yes, it didn't work with my phone properly, but there were no other headphones that came close.  So I'm pretty sure that I would, indeed, try another C-Max even if it turns out (still could) that I had gotten a lemon. There is just too much else about this car that I like, and I'm stubborn in that regard.

 

It didn't work out for me in the headphones case, and perhaps the guy here would have gotten another lemon.  In that particular (and only) case would I say -- move on.  The C-Max is NOT the car for you.

[Adrian_L]

You are a slippery old snake.  Haha  I finally understand.  Good fun. 

 

I didn't actually watch the video until today and I have fallen into that trap before (a drug dealer got shot to death about 30 feet from my front door a few years ago--we were not home at the time.  I said to my uncle:  well the chances of that happening again are astronomically small.  The reality is that the chances of someone getting shot near my door are absolutely the same as they were before the guy got shot). 

 

Where I was coming from is this:  consumers are not patient.  If their car lets them down 10 or 12 times. If they have had headaches with the dealership or service departments, it sours their experience of the brand.  It isn't the customer's responsibility to find out "what" the problem is.  It is Ford's responsibility to make a reliable car.     If I know of several people who have had lemons---and let's be honest, there have been plenty of folks with C-max lemons---I start to get nervous about a)my car and b)Ford in general. 

 

You say I wrote that one should not date another woman if one has had a bad experience with a woman?!?!  I did??  Even if I had a terrorist pointing a gun at my head I wouldn't type that.  I merely pointed out the chances of getting a bad one were the same as before.  

 

Having said all that, I admire your patience and your free time.  Before two kids, I dotted on a VW bus and put up with endless problems, breakdowns, rust, a lousy heater, leaky fuel tank, you name it.  No more time for that. 

[Kelleytoons]

You are correct about free time -- that's kind of the definition of being retired.  I have to ponder if I would have spent the same amount of time on the headphones if I were still working (perhaps not -- but trying to gain that perspective again may be beyond my reach now).

 

I do think we tend to not be as patient about our transportation as other things, since it often is far more critical to us to get where we need to go.  Heck, the reason I got Maximis in the first place was our issues with our Durango.  I felt it wasn't reliable enough and my wife still works part time.  

 

But, by the same token, we did not give up on it (after we had something we *could* rely on) and now it's what she drives exclusively to work.  And I get to drive Maximis after living for almost a decade with only one vehicle.  So I guess I really am saying it's nice to get older and (hopefully) wiser and more patient.  How much patience we might have had without other alternatives is a good question, though.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Kelleytoons

[salsaguy]

Looking back I should have taken your approach and foregone the BBB process. I would strongly discourage any consumer from using BBB as the intermediary as is prescribed in the owner's manual, it does not seem to add any value to the process.

 

Unfortunately, that's probably why it IS stated in the manual...so the owners use that BNN process instead of direct with Ford, which stalls the process and helps the manufactures, not the consumer, as it seems to be the case based on results posted here.

[salsaguy]

Update on CMax replacement

My chapter of the CMax is over, I took possession of my new Explorer on the 8th 3 weeks from the date Ford agreed to replace my CMax. If I could go back in time I would would of agreed to a repurchase rather then a replacement. I lost all incentives Ford was offering on the Explorers,so we had to pay full MSRP. But I am glad that this chapter has ended and I am in a clean smelling vehicle.

You should have requested they also pay you the difference in gas/fuel costs between the CMax and much less mpg Explorer (not a hybrid) over the lifetime you would have had the CMax.

enjoy life without the 12v problems

[Jonescurt]

Looks like I am a little late to this but Ford yesterday agreed to buy back my C-Max. I actually went through the BBB process one year ago and was rejected. The BBB process was a sham. The mediator concluded that the car met the standard for a lemon in Wisconsin in that there were four attempted repairs during the first year of ownership and the car was in the shop for more than 30 days. They rejected the claim because they said there was no evidence that the battery was still a problem. Ford said they fixed it and the mediator ignored the letter of the law and sided with Ford. Fast forward one year and the battery was dead again. I decided to contact a lawyer about it and 30 days later, I am getting my money back. The lawyer called the mediator's decision capricious and stated that many of the BBB mediators have connections with car companies. Good luck to anybody else out there still dealing with this process.

[Kelleytoons]

I think somewhere in this lengthy thread someone mentioned you don't need to use BBB in the lemon law process, but even if so it's good you have another example to prove the point.  And good for you for getting satisfaction.

[moedavis]

I just completed the buy back process through the BBB.  I was very pleased with the process.  Here in California the Consumer Affairs bureau had an observer present for the arbitration hearing. My interaction with Ford was the biggest disappointment.  Clearly none of the departments talk to each other.   Finally I turned the car in on Friday and bought a new car.  After owning 6 Ford cars, I'm done with the brand.  A lot of good will could have been gained if they would have offered to give me a different car from the beginning.  Instead 3 months were spent going the the Lemon Law process.  

 

Bye, Bye, Ford

[jcarey27]

Ford has agreed to re-acquire my 2013 C-Max SE due to the ongoing battery failure issues, however they are requiring that I fix all wear and tear items identified in the dealer inspection stage of the process. I live in California and it seems that the law here does not allow for deduction of any damage or wear and tear items, like wheel scratches or bumper scrapes. In fact, there seems to be a pending class action lawsuit against Ford on this particular issue. Has anyone else here had experience with Ford in California on this issue?

 

I have agreed to fix all issues within the legal requirements and have asked Ford to clarifiy which of the identified issues must be repaired, however they have not responded, even after a follow up email. Any recommendations here?

[kostby]

Ford apparently wants everything 'perfect' so the "Lemon law" cars purchased in California can be resold.

 

Here's a "Lemon Law" 2013 C-MAX Energi originally sold and repurchased in California, with very low miles for sale at Rizza Ford in the Chicago area:

http://www.rizzafordnorthriverside.com/inventory/2013-ford-c-max-energi-fwd-sel-4dr-wagon-1fadp5cu8dl540053

 

Here's a snippet from the CarFax report.

(You can view the full CarFax report by clicking on the link within the dealership link posted above):

 

 

Link to Monroney sticker for the vehicle VIN number:

http://services.forddirect.fordvehicles.com/inventory/WindowSticker.pdf?vin=1FADP5CU8DL540053

Edited April 13, 2015 by kostby

[raadsel]

Ford apparently wants everything 'perfect' so the "Lemon law" cars purchased in California can be resold.

 

Here's a "Lemon Law" 2013 C-MAX Energi originally sold and repurchased in California, with very low miles for sale at Rizza Ford in the Chicago area:

http://www.rizzafordnorthriverside.com/inventory/2013-ford-c-max-energi-fwd-sel-4dr-wagon-1fadp5cu8dl540053

 

Here's a snippet from the CarFax report.

Screen Shot 2015-04-13 at 5.17.54 AM.png

(You can view the full CarFax report by clicking on the link within the dealership link posted above):

 

 

Link to Monroney sticker for the vehicle VIN number:

http://services.forddirect.fordvehicles.com/inventory/WindowSticker.pdf?vin=1FADP5CU8DL540053

 

And that want $20,000 for it? I mean, admittedly, it is a low mileage vehicle; OTOH, you have to realize that it is a low mileage vehicle because it kept going into the shop....

[mumblyjoe]

Get the buyback and buy an Energi.

Do NOT, I repeat NOT buy an Energi. The Energi has the same 12 volt problem, just more frustrating because the stupid thing shouldn't need the 12 volt to start. I have the Energi and I charged it fully this weekend, let it sit overnight and went to start it to find the thing was dead as a doornail. I couldn't even open the door without the manual key tucked inside the Keyfob. I we jumped it only to find that the thing still had a full charge in the plugin driving battery. 

 

I bought a used 2013 energi with 15000 miles on it 2 months ago. It's already been in the shop twice for the powered lift gate not latching. This weekend I got the 12 volt problem where it was dead in the driveway and had to be jumped even though the EV battery had a full charge on it. Since then it's started this thing where it won't start when you first push the button. All the lights come on but it never says "ready to drive" unless you turn it off and on repeatedly. The times it does start and say ready to drive it doesn't unlock the steering without being restarted. On top of that the MyFord Touch interface periodically goes to a screen where it says "performing scheduled maintenance" and after that point it won't connect to the phone or register voice commands until I do a master reset.

 

Today I'm taking it in for service again. I think I'm at about 10 calendar days in the repair shop so far but I'm not sure. The dealership has thus far refused to provide me a receipt or any kind of documentation of the repair work done making it extremely difficult to file under lemon law even once I reach the 30 calendar days out of service. 

[ls973800]

Do NOT, I repeat NOT buy an Energi. The Energi has the same 12 volt problem, just more frustrating because the stupid thing shouldn't need the 12 volt to start. I have the Energi and I charged it fully this weekend, let it sit overnight and went to start it to find the thing was dead as a doornail. I couldn't even open the door without the manual key tucked inside the Keyfob. I we jumped it only to find that the thing still had a full charge in the plugin driving battery. 

 

I bought a used 2013 energi with 15000 miles on it 2 months ago. It's already been in the shop twice for the powered lift gate not latching. This weekend I got the 12 volt problem where it was dead in the driveway and had to be jumped even though the EV battery had a full charge on it. Since then it's started this thing where it won't start when you first push the button. All the lights come on but it never says "ready to drive" unless you turn it off and on repeatedly. The times it does start and say ready to drive it doesn't unlock the steering without being restarted. On top of that the MyFord Touch interface periodically goes to a screen where it says "performing scheduled maintenance" and after that point it won't connect to the phone or register voice commands until I do a master reset.

 

Today I'm taking it in for service again. I think I'm at about 10 calendar days in the repair shop so far but I'm not sure. The dealership has thus far refused to provide me a receipt or any kind of documentation of the repair work done making it extremely difficult to file under lemon law even once I reach the 30 calendar days out of service. 

 

 

Does your state actually have a lemon law for used vehicles?  Check into it because it varies from state to state, just like the rules for a new car which is a lemon.

[stevedebi]

Do NOT, I repeat NOT buy an Energi. The Energi has the same 12 volt problem, just more frustrating because the stupid thing shouldn't need the 12 volt to start. I have the Energi and I charged it fully this weekend, let it sit overnight and went to start it to find the thing was dead as a doornail. I couldn't even open the door without the manual key tucked inside the Keyfob. I we jumped it only to find that the thing still had a full charge in the plugin driving battery. 

 

I bought a used 2013 energi with 15000 miles on it 2 months ago. It's already been in the shop twice for the powered lift gate not latching. This weekend I got the 12 volt problem where it was dead in the driveway and had to be jumped even though the EV battery had a full charge on it. Since then it's started this thing where it won't start when you first push the button. All the lights come on but it never says "ready to drive" unless you turn it off and on repeatedly. The times it does start and say ready to drive it doesn't unlock the steering without being restarted. On top of that the MyFord Touch interface periodically goes to a screen where it says "performing scheduled maintenance" and after that point it won't connect to the phone or register voice commands until I do a master reset.

 

Today I'm taking it in for service again. I think I'm at about 10 calendar days in the repair shop so far but I'm not sure. The dealership has thus far refused to provide me a receipt or any kind of documentation of the repair work done making it extremely difficult to file under lemon law even once I reach the 30 calendar days out of service. 

Just to clarify, both the hybrid and the Energi use the 12v battery to energize the electronics so that the HVB can spin the engine to start the car. Neither one will start without the 12v being charged.

 

The "ready to drive" problem sounds like it may be the brake sensor; the car is not picking up the fact that the brake is depressed.

[hybridbear]

Do NOT, I repeat NOT buy an Energi. The Energi has the same 12 volt problem, just more frustrating because the stupid thing shouldn't need the 12 volt to start. I have the Energi and I charged it fully this weekend, let it sit overnight and went to start it to find the thing was dead as a doornail. I couldn't even open the door without the manual key tucked inside the Keyfob. I we jumped it only to find that the thing still had a full charge in the plugin driving battery. 

 

I bought a used 2013 energi with 15000 miles on it 2 months ago. It's already been in the shop twice for the powered lift gate not latching. This weekend I got the 12 volt problem where it was dead in the driveway and had to be jumped even though the EV battery had a full charge on it. Since then it's started this thing where it won't start when you first push the button. All the lights come on but it never says "ready to drive" unless you turn it off and on repeatedly. The times it does start and say ready to drive it doesn't unlock the steering without being restarted. On top of that the MyFord Touch interface periodically goes to a screen where it says "performing scheduled maintenance" and after that point it won't connect to the phone or register voice commands until I do a master reset.

 

Today I'm taking it in for service again. I think I'm at about 10 calendar days in the repair shop so far but I'm not sure. The dealership has thus far refused to provide me a receipt or any kind of documentation of the repair work done making it extremely difficult to file under lemon law even once I reach the 30 calendar days out of service. 

I guess you know now why the first owner got rid of it so quickly now...

 

Do you keep the Energi plugged in when at home? The Energi can charge the 12V battery when connected to your EVSE and thus most Energi models do not have 12V issues like the hybrid models do.

 

It is not uncommon for the dealer to not provide you documentation until they close the ticket. It's possible that your ticket is still open if they haven't resolved the issue.

[Robert Fugate]

I look at different sites as far as purchasing a used Ford C-Max. What surprises me is just about everyone of  them has a recall and it's not just one or two. But 3 or 4 or more recalls, and it's even used ones from the FORD DEALERSHIPS! Is there a reason to this? http://miami.craigslist.org/brw/ctd/5069092735.html

[raadsel]

I look at different sites as far as purchasing a used Ford C-Max. What surprises me is just about everyone of  them has a recall and it's not just one or two. But 3 or 4 or more recalls, and it's even used ones from the FORD DEALERSHIPS! Is there a reason to this? http://miami.craigslist.org/brw/ctd/5069092735.html

 

It appears as if that car is being sold as a Certified Pre-Owned (CPO), which means they should have performed any of the recalls on the car when they did the CPO inspection. It is possible that there has been a new recall since the inspection was done, which may not have been performed. Additionally, depending on what source you use, there are recalls that only apply to a range of build dates and not all 2013 vehicles but some sites still show the recalls as "needed" for a vehicle that was not built in that date range. I'll agree, it does seem odd that a Ford Dealer would not perform known recalls on any pre-owned Ford they sell.

 

There are a couple of "recalls" that may have no work required. One is the Fuel Economy Customer Satisfaction, which merely provided first owners with money for the car allegedly not living up to the original EPA mileage claims. The other is the MyFord Touch Warranty Extension, which is merely extending the warranty on the MyFord Touch.