EV+ is it possible to lock in?

[salprint]

I did a search in the forums and couldn't find if this was discussed.  

I find that in the EV+ Mode, I can accelerate quickly without the ICE engaging so easily.  It would seem to me that if I could lock it into EV+ mode, I might get better milage and I can move from a dead stop without pissing off the guy behind me while I'm trying to keep it in the EV mode.  And if everything is working correctly, if the battery gets low, the ICE will engage to charge and do its normal thing.  It just seems that the threshold could have been set to a higher point.  Has anyone explored this?

[webcontrol]

Very interesting, I am looking forward to this information also.

Toyota does not push hard for their pure EV cars, so they try to make Prius has max MPG. I think Ford is trying to push their Energi hard, so it limit hybrid performance to lower.  Otherwise, it can not explain why both Hybrid and Energi use same engine and electrical motor, but hybrid constantly jump into ICE, even the battery is pretty full.

[MtnMarty]

I believe you can have up to 4 EV+ locations. I used to have 2...home and work. But since I only normally go into work twice a week, Synch lost that location. I could get it back by starting up 11 times, I guess, but I just haven't bothered. Don't know if it's worth it.

[Braker]

I just got into EV+ today for the first time coming home...it was really cool. I guess I have done enough of the starting and stopping in the past week of ownership that it recognized I was close to home and gave me a solid 2 bar availability. Very cool!

[Recumpence]

Actually the best mileage is had by always accelerating with the engine and cruising in ev. I would rather disable ev+ than encourage it.

 

Matt

[Tdefny]

There are limits to how low the battery can go or how high for that matter. They deliberately avoid these extremes to protect the battery. EV+ works by running the ICE a little extra before you reach a familiar destination to top off the HV battery. It then allows that battery to go slightly lower than normal because it knows that the car will either get charged there in the NRG or the ICE will run as soon as the car is used next. It allows you to complete the final leg of your trip in EV but it is not magic and there is no free lunch.

 

As for Hybrid vs. Energi, Ford appears to be devoting far more attention to the Hybrid as that has the bigger potential market. This is evidenced by all of the aerodynamic mods in the '14 Hybrid, while the Energi appears to be unchanged.

[fbov]

...EV+ works by running the ICE a little extra before you reach a familiar destination to top off the HV battery....

We must have different vehicles... mine never gets a chance to "top off" the battery. I exit the expressway with a high SOC, and can get to the top of the intervening hill without ICE if I catch the lights. From there, it's downhill to home, with EV+ coming on after I turn into my neighborhood. By this time, I've bottomed the battery at least once, so there's absolutely no way for the ICE to run "a little extra."

 

Conversely, the HV battery does recover SOC while sitting, so I get ICE on start-up only when it's very cold (7F today), and not because I EV+'ed my way home. Granted, I live at the bottom of a hill... final path before parking may affect parking SOC and start-up behavior.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

EV+ for me works pretty much as described in the manual.   When coming home, I have about a 300 foot climb for about 3+ miles at a speed limit of 55 mph before I turn off the main road at a traffic light and proceed about 1+ miles up another 35 feet to my home. My SOC usually shows about 1/2 - 2/3 when turning off the main highway.  

 

With EV+, ICE virtually always runs starting when making the turn at the traffic light.  ICE then usually always stays on for at least 1/2 miles (speed limit 35 mph) until I turn again onto a road with a speed limit of 25 mph. ICE will then generally stay off until home but sometimes will continue to run for another 1/4+ miles.  EV+ will show up on the display with slightly less than 1/4 mile from my home. But as the crow flies I'm really about 1/8 mile from home. :)

[ptjones]

My experience is similar with EV+  working about 1/4mi from home and work. I work 2.4mi. from home and 100'  higher elevation for work so I get 35-128mpg going home and 29-45mpg going to work. HVB SOC makes a big difference in MPG's on short distances plus ICE temp to a lesser degree. :)

 

Paul

[webcontrol]

Although my average is 45.4 MPG, I never see EV+ on my panel. I checked setup, there is  option for EV+ on under setting->driver assist.

That is set to on.

With both hybrid and plug-in same electrical motor, why does the plug-in can run without ICE on battery only, but hybrid even with battery almost full, it easily starts ICE.  Plug-in tows 500 lbs heavy batteries than hybrid can have same rated MPG without charge.

Edited March 4, 2014 by webcontrol

[salprint]

I realize that EV+ is not a magic thing that will give me better gas milage...all I'm saying is that I feel the threshold for the ICE to engage could be set a little higher.  Maybe not as high as it is in EV+ mode...but higher.

[ptjones]

I realize that EV+ is not a magic thing that will give me better gas milage...all I'm saying is that I feel the threshold for the ICE to engage could be set a little higher.  Maybe not as high as it is in EV+ mode...but higher.

EV does take a light foot for sure to get the most out of it. :)

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

From my experience when monitoring SOC, normally the SOC will vary from low 40% to mid / upper 50%.  I very rarely see above 60% or below 40%. The useable life of the battery (number of charge / discharge cycles) depends on the charge level for each discharge / charge cycle. In other words, if you charge back to 100% capacity on every discharge / charge cycle, the life of the battery declines considerably.  So, to extend the cycle life, the battery is very rarely charged anywhere near 100% SOC (IIRC someone said it's around 70%).  And on the discharge side IIRC the minimum is around 35%.  So, the engineers are going to set up the algorithms to stay within limits and likely more in the range of what I see in normal driving and as such the cycle life should be maximized.  

 

Playing with the limits on when ICE turns on by allowing for more battery energy to drive the car for longer periods of time (widening the charge / discharge levels to say 85% / 15% will likely shorten cycle life. I can't find any battery curves for the C-Max but here's an old curve (I would think the cells in the C-Max might be better) that demonstrates why one does not want to cycle the HVB to 100% to get more energy from the battery.  For example,  assume 1000 mAh represents 100% SOC.  So, looking at the curve if one charged back to about 100% (blue or red curve), the life (assuming 60% Capacity or 600 mAh) would be between 250 - 375 cycles.  Assume one only charges back to the black curve level of about 93%, the life might be around 800 cycles which really is not very long.   Now assume that the SOC is limited to 70%.  We can assume that the 70% curve would be a straight line but extremely flat.  It would have a slope much less than the black curve.  One can assume the cycle life would likely then be for the life of the car or several 100k miles.

 

Also, I forgot to mention that I read SOC via the OBDII port not the battery ICON on the display.  As others have said (and verified) the battery ICON is non-linear and near full does not represent near 100% SOC and near the bottom does not represent near zero SOC.

 

Edited March 5, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[wab]

Mercedes-Benz new B-class Electric Drive is going to have what they call “up charge”.

“...the car also has a so-called “up charge” function; it gives the battery 15 percent more energy for greater range. Using it is an easy process: Punch the center console-mounted button, plug in the car and you're done. Benz acknowledges the function isn't best for long battery life and hopes customers use it sparingly.”

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20140303/CARREVIEWS/140229984

[plus 3 golfer]

On an EV with a large battery like the Mercedes, one can "get away" with charging the battery to a higher state of charge as the discharge / charge cycles would likely be a lot less on such an EV than a HEV or even a PHEV like the NRG.

 

Damn, I've got to wait until at least 2015 in AZ to step up from the "C" class to the "B" class.  MB claims 100+ mile range. I wonder if this is with the "up charge" or without as before I buy an EV, I would want a usable range of near 100 miles (and a reasonable price).   From MBUSA:

 

The all-new B-Class Electric Drive will be available starting summer 2014 at authorized Mercedes-Benz dealers in select states — CA, CT, MD, OR, NJ, NY, RI and VT — and then nationwide in early 2015. 

 

Edited March 6, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[fbov]

...I can't find any battery curves for the C-Max ...

Search "Ford key life test" for that kind data. Here's one good link and it has the data...

 

The gist is that Li-ion technology is too new to know it's going to break; no Li-ion batteries in hybrid applications have not been run long enough to estimate service life accurately. In place of life data, Ford developed an "accelerated life test" procedure they call the Key Life Test. The good news is not only a projection of 80% capacity at 250K miles, but also a validation of the test against NiMH technology, showing it's a conservative test; all field test samples did better than predicted.

 

I would assume that most of your discussion of charge/discharge thresholds would be comprehended by their test parameters.

[ptjones]

Going by the graph at 50Kmi. you have lost about 10%. :)

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

Search "Ford key life test" for that kind data. Here's one good link and it has the data...

 

The gist is that Li-ion technology is too new to know it's going to break; no Li-ion batteries in hybrid applications have not been run long enough to estimate service life accurately. In place of life data, Ford developed an "accelerated life test" procedure they call the Key Life Test. The good news is not only a projection of 80% capacity at 250K miles, but also a validation of the test against NiMH technology, showing it's a conservative test; all field test samples did better than predicted.

 

I would assume that most of your discussion of charge/discharge thresholds would be comprehended by their test parameters.

I agree the thresholds should be part of their test parameters as the tests are supposedly based on "working capacity".  Otherwise, their tests aren't of much value.

 

I did reference the graph in the link many months ago but had to delete the curve due to potentially running out of storage capacity on this site (and not wanting to move all to photobucket or similar site.  I really wanted to find a test of an individual li-ion cell with similar chemistry to the Ford cells rather than something that's a decade plus old but couldn't to show how charge level affects cell storage capacity.   Based on the linked Ford article, Ford's not charging to 100% (using working capacity), and the curves of the cell above as a reference, it's a good indication as why Ford engineered many of the PCM features like EV+ the way they did.  That's not saying that Ford won't change in the future as they gain more real world experience with battery life.  

 

What I'm not sure is if Ford ever lets the charge go to 100 %.  Next week I should be heading north and will descend many long steeper grades that will charge the battery to max based on their algorithms.  I'll (if I remember to take my IPad), record various parameters as I'm ascending and descending the grades.

[plus 3 golfer]

Going by the graph at 50Kmi. you have lost about 10%. :)

 

Paul

I'm assuming that the graph represents 100% SOC or 1.4 kWh of capacity at 0 miles.  If the working capacity is a max charge of 70%, then we should see no loss of  working capacity for the life of the vehicle and thus no affect on FE due to battery capacity degradation.  

 

Paul, what's the max SOC you've seen on your scan gauge?

[ptjones]

I'm assuming that the graph represents 100% SOC or 1.4 kWh of capacity at 0 miles.  If the working capacity is a max charge of 70%, then we should see no loss of  working capacity for the life of the vehicle and thus no affect on FE due to battery capacity degradation.  

 

Paul, what's the max SOC you've seen on your scan gauge?

I haven't set it up for that yet. Currently Impg's,WT,IT and RPM's, not sure what to get rid of to put SOC in. I wonder if charge rate and discharge rate stay the same over the life of the battery. Also I was reading that you can get higher % of charge if the Li ion Battery is charged slower. :)

 

Paul

[salprint]

There are limits to how low the battery can go or how high for that matter. They deliberately avoid these extremes to protect the battery. EV+ works by running the ICE a little extra before you reach a familiar destination to top off the HV battery. It then allows that battery to go slightly lower than normal because it knows that the car will either get charged there in the NRG or the ICE will run as soon as the car is used next. It allows you to complete the final leg of your trip in EV but it is not magic and there is no free lunch.

 

As for Hybrid vs. Energi, Ford appears to be devoting far more attention to the Hybrid as that has the bigger potential market. This is evidenced by all of the aerodynamic mods in the '14 Hybrid, while the Energi appears to be unchanged.

I don't know if you have knowledge of this for sure, or if you are saying it out of what you experience with your car, but I disagree.  I don't see the ICE running any extra before I reach my EV+ destinations.  All I notice is that once I'm in the EV+ range, the threshold raises where the ICE would normally kick in.  I realize that if I were in the EV+ mode all the time, then I would need to charge the battery more often which would result in being in the ICE mode more often probably.  But I still think raising the threshold a little bit would help.  In very cold weather I notice the threshold is even lower until the engine really warms up, which sometimes takes about 10 miles of my 15 mile drive to work in the morning.  This really hurts my gas milage, so I figure if the the threshold were set a little higher in normal weather, my milage will most likely increase.  I also disagree with another poster who said the most fuel efficient way of driving is ICE at starting acceleration and cruising in EV.  I agree with the cruising part, but I find that I get better milage if from a dead stop, I press on the pedal lightly and let the EV get the car moving first, and then once I'm over about 10 or 15 miles an hour, I press a little more and let the ICE kick in.  I feel that if the electric motor gets the car moving first, the gas motor doesn't have to work as hard to pull the car to the desired speed.  I have proven this over and over again by checking my gas milage after doing it different ways.

Anyway...all of this is just from trial and error and what I notice from experience of driving the car.

[plus 3 golfer]

I don't know if you have knowledge of this for sure, or if you are saying it out of what you experience with your car, but I disagree.  I don't see the ICE running any extra before I reach my EV+ destinations.  ..

Yes, it's in the manual.  If you are within about 1/2 mile of an EV+ destination, ICE may run (charge the battery to a higher level) if it's below a certain threshold ("your vehicle starts

to raise the accelerator pedal based EV mode threshold.")  I see this a lot.  Sometimes, I can keep ICE from starting if I back off the accelerator (slow down) but most times it still turns on.

 

The EV mode usage changes are based on the following criteria:

• 1/2 mile (1 kilometer) from a familiar destination, your vehicle starts

to raise the accelerator pedal based EV mode threshold.

• 1/8 mile (200 meters) from a familiar destination, your vehicle is in

full EV mode.

• Infrequent destinations have no increase in EV driving.

 

 

[ScubaDadMiami]

I find that I get better milage if from a dead stop, I press on the pedal lightly and let the EV get the car moving first, and then once I'm over about 10 or 15 miles an hour, I press a little more and let the ICE kick in.  I feel that if the electric motor gets the car moving first, the gas motor doesn't have to work as hard to pull the car to the desired speed.  I have proven this over and over again by checking my gas milage after doing it different ways.

Anyway...all of this is just from trial and error and what I notice from experience of driving the car.

+1

[fbov]

 

...("your vehicle starts to raise the accelerator pedal based EV mode threshold.")  I see this a lot.  

I think you've misread the manual! Proper punctuation would help.  

 

your vehicle starts to raise the accelerator pedal-based, EV-mode threshold

This is saying that in EV+, the blue box around the white bar will start to rise higher on the white bar when in ICE mode.

 

The EV-mode threshold is the unfilled blue bar. Go below the threshold and ICE stops, EV starts. In EV+, you get into EV easier because the threshold is higher...

 

After all, "eats shoots and leaves" is not understandable without a comma...

 

Have fun,

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

Copied right from the manual including punctuation. :)  You're right. 

 

But what turns on or when does the EV+ symbol show on the display?  According to Ford's video it turns on when EV+ is active (whatever that means).  For me it seems to come on no further away from home than 1/4 mile.  

 

I don't ever recall seeing EV+ come on 1/2 mile from home.  About 1/2 mile from home I turn off the main road and accelerate to about 30 mph climbing about 30 feet in a 1/4+ miles. ICE starts because EV threshold is too low and I'm climbing requiring more power.   When I ease off the accelerator and slow down to about 25 mph, I then go below threshold, ICE shuts down, I'm in full EV mode, but EV+ isn't displayed until I get to less than 1/4 miles from home. Anyways, I'll watch things a little closer now and test various scenarios.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure I've read in a Ford document that ICE will run if the HVB is low when nearing an EV+ locations implying that ICE otherwise wouldn't have run if not nearing the EV+ location with no mention of the threshold changing (I'll see if I can find it). 

Edited March 13, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer