Battery dead

[FordService]

Here we go again. dead battery in my 2014 CMax SE which is a lemon law replacement for my 2013 CMax. Got the car last week, approximately 200-250 miles on it. Drove it about 40 miles yesterday. Dead this morning. ...

 

salman,

 

PM me your name, phone number, VIN, mileage, and dealer info. I'll get this looked into ASAP.

 

Ashley

[nfoster]

Hi -- new poster here.  I was in the process of getting a 2014 C-Max replacement for my 2013 C-Max lemon when I saw salman's post above!  Now I think I would have to be an idiot to risk going through this all over again with a 2014 model.  I really wish I could get reliable data on how common this dead battery problem is.  I don't think Ford will tell us.  I really love my C-Max.  There's nothing else out there that compares, for me, but how can I take a chance on a car that may not start on any given morning?  And Ford just can't seem to figure out what's wrong.

[nfoster]

Oh -- one more thing -- salman, will you let us know what Ford says?  Are they really going to make you go through the whole lemon law process (four attempts to fix problem, etc.) again?

[plus 3 golfer]

Hi -- new poster here.  I was in the process of getting a 2014 C-Max replacement for my 2013 C-Max lemon when I saw salman's post above!  Now I think I would have to be an idiot to risk going through this all over again with a 2014 model.  I really wish I could get reliable data on how common this dead battery problem is.  I don't think Ford will tell us.  I really love my C-Max.  There's nothing else out there that compares, for me, but how can I take a chance on a car that may not start on any given morning?  And Ford just can't seem to figure out what's wrong.

Welcome :)  and I think all of us would like to know the "real" failure rate but I doubt Ford will ever tell unless forced. 

 

VW Jetta TDI owners thought similar on high pressure fuel pump failures after VW revised the pump at least 3 times since 2009 MY (Ford issuing several software updates supposedly to fix the dead battery in the past year or so) and after every subsequent year people bought new TDIs saying but my pump has been revised.  2013 TDI owners are having failures as have owners who got new pumps to replace their old failed pumps in early models. Because there is a NHTSA open investigation into the HPFP, VW has continued to replace the entire fuel system ($8K) under good will for owners well past warranty (150k miles or so).  Time will tell whether Ford has solved the issue and salman's 2014 dead battery is a one-off condition - probably what Ford will say.

 

The real concern to me is what will Ford do after the 3/36 b2b warranty expires if they ultimately find the definitive cause(s) and a fix.  There are several members that have passed the 36k mile period.  For example, maybe the solution is a larger capacity 12V battery and Ford redesigned the back compartment area for a larger battery but the existing C-Maxes won't have space for the larger battery and would require a significant mod.  In addition, what happens if there are multiple causes and the software updates fixed some of the conditions but maybe there are other conditions where the time to occurrence is longer (years / mileage related) and deteriorates over time and the lemon law (and warranty) have expired. 

 

The C-Max is a great car and I'm not sure whether there will be anything available soon that compares to it.  I had a high pressure fuel pump failure on my 2009 TDI at 44k miles and subsequently traded for the C-Max shortly after my 60k powertrain warranty expired at 70k miles.  If I begin to have 12V dead battery issues, I would likely get rid of the C-Max after 36 k miles if Ford can't point to a definitive cause and fix.  So, I think that tells you what I would do if I were in your situation. :)  

 

[SnowStorm]

For example, maybe the solution is a larger capacity 12V battery and Ford redesigned the back compartment area for a larger battery but the existing C-Maxes won't have space for the larger battery and would require a significant mod. 

IMHO you could double the size of the battery and still have trouble if the cause is a large current draw that doesn't turn off.  My recent incident (here) happened literally overnight and left the battery at 3.44 volts.  Let the car sit a few days and any battery will be dead if the current is high enough.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I would think that the odds of getting two vehicles in a row with the battery problem would be very small. So, I'd go for the 2014, and not worry about it.

[nfoster]

Thanks for the responses, folks.  I'm sure salman thought the odds of his getting another lemon were very small, too.  I just don't think I could manage to not worry about the possibility that next time the battery problem will not occur until it is too late for me to assert my lemon law rights.  And if it did happen early on, well, it has been a real drag this last year going back and forth to the dealer, getting rental cars, waiting to see if they've got a real fix each time.  I don't want to go through that again.  Ford has had well over a year now to figure this out, and they don't seem to be getting anywhere.  They apparently thought they had it figured out with the 13B12 update, but my C-Max has died twice since getting that update.  So sad -- such a great car in every other way.

One weird little thing -- every time my car has died (total of 6 times since I bought it in October 2012), I have had trouble getting the clock to reset to the correct time on the info screen, though it does reset on the dash.  Eventually, it will accept the reset, though last time it was not until the next day.  Strange.  Anyone else experience that? 

[salman]

Update, information, comments:

 

1) Got the car back yesterday. I have an excellent service adviser and an excellent mechanic at the dealership: they are smart, honest, and share information with me. The battery was badly drained from an overnight current draw. They updated all firmware. They disconnected wiring connectors per the 2013 TSB, found no water intrusion, cleaned the connections, applied dielectric grease/sealant, and reconnected. And, last and we think most important, they removed the Body Control Module and reconnected it, checking all connections, and then re-programmed the BCM.

 

They also checked to make sure all dash lights shut down after turning off and locking the car - Ford is advising service departments to check this. No problem on my car.

 

Then they fully charged the battery and held it overnight to test the next morning.

 

Time will tell if this works. I am optimistic that the BCM is the culprit.

 

2) I would not argue with anyone who decides not to try a second CMax. That is a very reasonable decision to make. At first, that is what I was sure I would do - i.e, take the buy back money and buy a different car.

 

3) My best guess - and it is only a guess - is that the incidence rate for the 12 volt problems is probably in the range of 1% to 5% of CMaxs. I don't think Ford will ever release statistics and we cannot work them up ourselves because all we have is self-reporting from people who find their way to this forum. We know dozens of cases have been reported on this forum (haven't tried to count for a long time) and that the dead battery discussion is more active than any similar trouble topic on most other cars.  

 

4) So far it seems the problems  hit cars relatively soon after purchase or soon after having work done on the cars.

 

5) The several reports of first time trouble after having software updates like 13B12 seems to be a clue.

 

6) Ford has not yet found a definitive cause or causes, nor has it confirmed definitive fixes. The 2014 model has very few changes from the 2013. There is no electronics redesign of the 2014 that could claim to fix the problems experience in the 2013, and now my car provides direct evidence of that.

 

7) Ford has, however, not denied the problem, as Toyota and GM have done in more serious and deadly cases that have been in the news these days.Individual dealerships have been a problem for some owners, but the Ford Motor Co has not refused warranty service and has, in fact, authorized some expensive repair attempts. The wiring harness is not cheap, nor is the BCM. Last but not least, in all but one of the buy back cases reported here, it seems Ford has offered to buy back or replace CMaxs with little resistance when the problems clearly surpass the limits set by State Lemon Laws. The process is time consuming, but Ford has shown itself to be responsible and reasonable in almost all of these cases. High points for that.

 

8) What happens after warranty? That is a good question. It is well documented that this is a problem rooted in the original design of car parts and/or software, and not something that happens from ordinary wear and tear, nor something caused by the owner, nor something that can truthfully be attributed to mechanic's error. We can't know what will happen in the years ahead, but I think it would behoove Ford to fix the problem on all cars regardless of warranty expiration if  they discover a fix and if they want to continue to sell CMaxs. Given Ford's responsiveness on repairs and buy backs so far, I am inclined to be a little optimistic on this point.

[Edsel]

nfoster, take the money and run. :arrive_alive: Just my opinion

[plus 3 golfer]

...

7) Ford has, however, not denied the problem, as Toyota and GM have done in more serious and deadly cases that have been in the news these days.Individual dealerships have been a problem for some owners, but the Ford Motor Co has not refused warranty service and has, in fact, authorized some expensive repair attempts. The wiring harness is not cheap, nor is the BCM. Last but not least, in all but one of the buy back cases reported here, it seems Ford has offered to buy back or replace CMaxs with little resistance when the problems clearly surpass the limits set by State Lemon Laws. The process is time consuming, but Ford has shown itself to be responsible and reasonable in almost all of these cases. High points for that.

 

...

Has any Ford engineers (or others with second hand reports of engineers thoughts) talked to you about possible causes during your buyback process?  So are you saying Ford has bought back a car when the first instance of a dead battery occurred after the state's lemon law had expired?  I wonder if Ford ever refused a buyback and the owner had to escalate it to arbitration or lawsuit.  It actually may "pay" Ford to buyback these problematic cars rather than to face a lawsuit opening Ford up to discovery. 

[salman]

Ford has bought back cars when the cases surpass the limits set by the lemon law - not the time limits, but the number of repair attempts and/or days in the shop to try to repair a significant problem. The CMax is not an old enough model to exceed the time limits.

 

No, Ford engineers have not contacted me.

 

Yes, it is probably less expensive for Ford to settle buy back case through its own process rather than stonewalling and forcing showdowns in court. In court they would lose if the case is good (depends on the case and the applicable State laws) and then they would need to pay attonry's costs.

 

Nevertheless, there still seems to be a more responsible approach here than with GM and Toyota in their recent troubles. It is not just about buy back cases, but about trying to fix the problems. Toyota denied there was any acceleration problem. Of course it was harder to prove the acceleration problem was real than it is to prove that the CMax dead battery problem is real.

[C-MaxSea]

Oh brother salman!  I can't believe this is happening to you again.  I am so sorry.

Salman, I gotta repeat what Laurel said, oh brother, not again.  Hope you get the red carpet ............... and a fully functioning C-Max when the dust settles. 

 

Best of luck,  Nick

[ptjones]

I thought I read that this problem happen with SE models and not SEL models. If that is the case I would have up graded to an SEL, less risk. IMO

I plugged in to my power point a digital volt meter after being away from MADMAX for 5days and tried to start it, but the computer didn't  see my fob twice. Both times I hit door lock on fob and doors locked and then I started the car. Figured it might be low batt. in fob, but then I got in the car the next time and the display didn't light up, but the car did start. Since then, couple of days ago I haven't had any problems. When I first get in the car I have 11.7v, but it gradually goes up and then I start the car and it jumps up to 14v to a high of 15v. :headscratch: :detective:

 

Paul

[HPRifleman]

I thought I read that this problem happen with SE models and not SEL models. If that is the case I would have up graded to an SEL, less risk. IMO

Others may have more information but I think while the large majority of 12v battery problems are with SE vehicles, there have been a few SELs as well. That's just from seeing responses on this forum. I would agree that there is less risk with the SEL but it is unfortunate that Ford can't provide a consistent product for those that choose the SE.

[ptjones]

Others may have more information but I think while the large majority of 12v battery problems are with SE vehicles, there have been a few SELs as well. That's just from seeing responses on this forum. I would agree that there is less risk with the SEL but it is unfortunate that Ford can't provide a consistent product for those that choose the SE.

It would be interesting if others would monitor their voltage at power point to see if my results are similar to theirs. I've seen a low of 11.5v when I open the door to 13.5v when I get out. It sedately drops with time after getting out of car. When I get in the car it slowly goes up from 11.5v-11.7v to 12.5+v  until I start the car where it jumps to 14.4v with a high of 15.2v after driving awhile. :)

 

Paul

[ArizonaEnergi]

Paul, I did some voltage monitoring last year and posted it somewhere here, but it basically confirms your findings. Upon opening the door the voltage drops from about 12.4 to 11.8 within a few seconds, but then starts climbing back up over a few minutes back to 12.3 or 12.4. Upon starting the car the HV battery provides charging voltage in the 12.6+ range.

 

Here's the thread I did on battery voltage: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/1566-what-is-your-12-volt-battery-voltage/

[mbedit]

I just want to repeat what Salman has said in regards to Ford's handling of the issue... especially as we've seen how other manufactures have handled issues. I think its a testament that they assigned a representative to this forum to try and help customers.

 

I say this knowing full well the frustrations of the issue since I had it. It sounds like your in good hands Salman, and I hope it gets the issue resolved, because the C-Max is a good vehicle.

[DKG85]

My situation exactly mirrors that of Salman -- picked up my 2014 CMAX SE last week (a Lemon Law replacement for the 2013) and this morning the 12V battery was dead. I have about 250 miles on it. The replacement process was slow, but Ford went above and beyond the letter of the law (Massachusetts) and I felt I was treated very well and fairly throughout. That said, I am now filled with dread at the prospect of going through another series of repair attempts etc. and just want a car that starts reliably every morning.

 

I don't have a voltage meter and haven't tracked details about the conditions under which the battery has drained, except that I do leave the automatic headlights in the "on" position, and I generally have a phone charging cord plugged in to either the USB plug or the 12V outlet.  The dealer assured me multiple times that neither practice should drain the battery, so those have been constants.   The 2013 made it through the entire winter, with subzero weather, with no problems at all since Halloween.  And now this.

 

Any advice?

 

Donna

 

 

[salman]

Hi Donna

 

That is amazing. Both of our 2013's functioned perfectly while the buy back case was pending, roughly October to March.

 

Go over the paperwork for your 2013 from its last repair attempts. It sounds like it was in the shop in September or October 2013. Talk to your dealer service department about checking everything on the 2014 that they touched on your 2013 back in September/October.

 

That's what I did with my service department. They checked & updated all software as per all the TSBs, checked the electrical connectors on the main wiring harness per that TSB, and, last and maybe most important of all, they disconnected and then reconnected the Body Control Module and reprogrammed it. There is a TSB for a bad ground connection on the Body Control Module, and possible bad pin connections on it, too. These can make eletrical systems function erratically. The TSB tells dealers to check these connections if there is a trouble code, but it is worth checking the connections even without a trouble code.

 

I have a strong hunch that the Body Control Module might have been the chief culprit on my 2013. The circumstances and timing of problems and the disappearance of problems after October 2013 point in that direction.

 

I will post full details if I have a re-occurrence of the 12 volt problems. So far, so good.

 

Please update us on what your dealer does on your car.

 

Let's hope we won't need to make lemon law claims again. But, if it comes to that, at least we know how to do it and have had the experience of Ford being better than reasonable about it.

Edited March 26, 2014 by salman

[ptjones]

You can get digital power point volt meter from Amazon $6+ to monitor 12v battery and volt meters start around $15.  I would be tempted to put a battery charger on it a night to make sure I didn't have a problem.  I wonder if is possible to have a device that would send you a text if your voltage got to low? That would make it easy to figure out what is going wrong if you could catch it doing it. :detective:  :headscratch: 

 

Paul

[nfoster]

Well, I had been unable to pull the trigger on changing my replacement case for my 2013 C-Max SE to a buyback case.  I guess I just couldn't quite give up on the C-Max.  But Donna's post above clinches it for me.  I will get my money back and buy a very reliable car, and maybe in 5 or 6 years, when they have finally ironed out the kinks in the C-Max, I will trade that reliable car in for a reliable C-Max.  In the meantime, I will be checking this forum to see how things go for Donna and Salman!

[mikeg]

After our last case (4th) I bought an external battery (Jackery) for my cell (Nokia Lumia 925) and stopped using the USB port. I am still using Bluetooth audio, but before I turn the engine off, I manually disconnect the phone from the car, turn the radio off, count to 5, and then turn the engine off. I always lock the car - since I am not sure what triggers things in the car to turn off. I am at 45mpg and 19k miles after 17 months.

[HotPotato]

Well, it finally happened...my first Found On Road Dead incident. Went to open the hatch yesterday morning and it wouldn't open--not even enough juice for the electric latch (BTW, whose idiot idea was it to start putting electric latches on trunks and hatches?). Opened the door--no dash lights, not even enough juice for a dome light.

 

Jump-started it. The display read 7:27 am, and didn't count up. During my next trip an hour later, the display read 7:28 am and didn't count up. Could be my imagination, but it seemed like the AC also had to be cranked to do anything. Took my little potato to the dealer, and as I type this they are replacing the battery and reprogramming the display. 

 

As you know, we all recently got in the mail from Ford notice about a service action to check the battery and reprogram the dash display. I had planned to wait until my potato's next oil change to get it done, but apparently it had other ideas.

 

BTW, as they were parking the car, I thought "hey, that thing's pretty handsome."  Potato or not, it looks good in black---hides the bulk, accentuates the curves.

[nfoster]

So, HotPotato, how long had you had your little potato before this happened? 

[ptjones]

Well, it finally happened...my first Found On Road Dead incident. Went to open the hatch yesterday morning and it wouldn't open--not even enough juice for the electric latch (BTW, whose idiot idea was it to start putting electric latches on trunks and hatches?). Opened the door--no dash lights, not even enough juice for a dome light.

 

Jump-started it. The display read 7:27 am, and didn't count up. During my next trip an hour later, the display read 7:28 am and didn't count up. Could be my imagination, but it seemed like the AC also had to be cranked to do anything. Took my little potato to the dealer, and as I type this they are replacing the battery and reprogramming the display. 

 

As you know, we all recently got in the mail from Ford notice about a service action to check the battery and reprogram the dash display. I had planned to wait until my potato's next oil change to get it done, but apparently it had other ideas.

 

BTW, as they were parking the car, I thought "hey, that thing's pretty handsome."  Potato or not, it looks good in black---hides the bulk, accentuates the curves.

Another SE, WOW.  Just replaced battery in jumper batt. unit so I'm some what ready and remembered that I have a key in my fob to get in the car with and open the hood. Mine is SEL with 52k and 18months.

Just got me thinking, I wonder how many AHr battery you would need to jump the car since you don't have to start the starter with it. It would be neat to have small 12v batt. that you could put in you door to quickly jump the car.IMO :)

 

Paul

 

Paul