Battery dead

[fbov]

I ALWAYS found it a real challenge to convince an engineer that real world testing (trouble clearing) is ALWAYS better than testing in the lab

It depends on who you are.

 

To Ford, we're all part of the "great unwashed public." They'd go bankrupt if they tried to follow our recommendations because the vast majority of us are just not that good a troubleshooting very complex systems without documentation. Actually, no one is... but Ford's engineers have the documentation!

 

Now, were you to buy 3,000 of these things, you'd expect special treatment, and engineers on-site when 100 of them lost their batteries. With lemon laws, I expect there are a few repurchaed vehicles commuting to Ford with full lab instrumentation. Remember, Detroit has real roads... and in most cases, engineers are real people.

 

Note many of us routinely leave things plugged in 24/7 (dash-cam and OBDII sensor). The only thing I can say for sure is that the rear 12v is unswitched (dash-cam took pics 24/7), while the front (console) outlet comes on when I open the door, as the dash-cam chimes. I've also left the car sit for a month... no issues. This on an SEL with 302A and pano roof.

[ptjones]

Frank have you tested your console power point 12v? I'm getting 11.4v when I open the door after sitting over night. :)

 

Paul

[ceemax71]

 

I ALWAYS found it a real challenge to convince an engineer that real world testing (trouble clearing) is ALWAYS better than testing in the lab.

 

Many engineers would say that real world testing is better.

However, the corporate lawyers probably discourage real world testing on an owner's vehicle to preserve plausible deniabilty.

[Smiling Jack]

I have a comment of strong opinion on the value of  "real world" vs. lab testing that applies much more broadly than to this particular thread.

 

First let me try to establish a bit of credibility.  I am an engineer with a professional license and an earned doctorate.  I have about 50 years of experience including a good deal of laboratory and field (real-world) testing of products in industries from aerospace to offshore structures.  I was on the flight test evaluation team for early Apollo missions, and I conducted laboratory reliability tests on components of those vehicles.  The results of my analyses of both field and laboratory testing are cited in international standards.

 

Observation: A strength of laboratory testing is that it can be done under controlled conditions (notably including extreme conditions that are unlikely to be seen in field testing within practical time limits).  A strength of field testing is that it can be done at actually occurring "real-world" conditions (notably often including actually occurring conditions that may not have otherwise been forseen in a program of lab testing only).

 

Opinion:  Both laboratory testing and "real-world" field testing are indispensible to good product development.  Lab testing can best determine the cause and remediation of problems.  Field testing can best determine both what the important problems are and whether the remedies are effective.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Smiling Jack

[fbov]

Well said.

[jaczac56]

This is my first post concerning the Dead Battery Issue on my 2014 SE (build date 03/14). Car delivered 4/3/14. Battery found dead overnight 4/12/14. Battery voltage was 6.9v. I had been monitoring overnight voltage each morning and it was running just below 12 volts. Since the dead battery occured on a Sunday (dealer not open) I monitored the voltage as it dropped during the day down to 4.7v Sunday evening. By Monday morning the voltage was 2.7v. Had the car towed to the dealer. It has been there for 3 days. They can find nothing wrong (as usual) other than the battery was dead. I figure I might as well get the papertrail started. Service Advisor did not seem up to speed on this issue. Thought there was only a problem with bad batteries on the 2013's. As I explained the problem he commented that I was more up to speed on this issue than he was (go figure!!). Told him it might be a good idea for him to call the Ford Hotline!! I can see this is going to be a long road ahead. I waited to order a 2014 hoping this issue would be solved, and if it was not solved I gambled I would not get a lemon. Strike two - strike three was when the tow truck driver was loading the car for the tow he pranged the front end. I still don't have 300 miles on this vehicle.

[ptjones]

This is my first post concerning the Dead Battery Issue on my 2014 SE (build date 03/14). Car delivered 4/3/14. Battery found dead overnight 4/12/14. Battery voltage was 6.9v. I had been monitoring overnight voltage each morning and it was running just below 12 volts. Since the dead battery occured on a Sunday (dealer not open) I monitored the voltage as it dropped during the day down to 4.7v Sunday evening. By Monday morning the voltage was 2.7v. Had the car towed to the dealer. It has been there for 3 days. They can find nothing wrong (as usual) other than the battery was dead. I figure I might as well get the papertrail started. Service Advisor did not seem up to speed on this issue. Thought there was only a problem with bad batteries on the 2013's. As I explained the problem he commented that I was more up to speed on this issue than he was (go figure!!). Told him it might be a good idea for him to call the Ford Hotline!! I can see this is going to be a long road ahead. I waited to order a 2014 hoping this issue would be solved, and if it was not solved I gambled I would not get a lemon. Strike two - strike three was when the tow truck driver was loading the car for the tow he pranged the front end. I still don't have 300 miles on this vehicle.

Hopefully they can find the problem, PM Ashley with FORD on this site, she will take care of you. :)

 

Paul

[HotPotato]

So, HotPotato, how long had you had your little potato before this happened? 

 

A year and a quarter.

[wab]

Salman,

 

Thank you for your advice. 

 

To your questions, the shop says that they tried all of the above and that Ford told them to look for an "outside cause" which we translated as something taking "too much power" via the USB port, but obviously that's not it. I agreed with the service advisor that I would bring it in on Monday, but he said that he has not heard back from Ford on what else to try, so the will get me a rental, and keep it there for a few days again, and then say that they couldn't find anything / replicate the problem - unless something changed in the car in the last 3 weeks, but somehow I doubt that. In other words, I feel hopeless and helpless. I have read above that the same stuff is happening with 2014 models, so obviously Ford hasn't identified what the source of all these problems is. The guy that was jump starting it said again, "I am getting a lot of these for some reason." After the car was jump-started, the clock in the car was at 9:28AM... Is this the time when the car died? We drove back in the late evening, and the drive was a lot of downhill, and the lights were on. Then the next morning, we didn't drive anywhere. The car was sitting in the garage until the late afternoon when we discovered that it was dead. In other words, I feel like if we had driven my daughter to school in the morning, then this last jump starting would have been prevented.

 

I offered to let them add some "debugging" device to the car and watch the battery and other systems until it happens again, and then they would know if something didn't turn off, but obviously that's not an option - I find it weird that Ford has not asked for volunteers for such a program. I am sure that most of us would agree to having their car monitored just so they can find out what's going on and get it fixed. The car is awesome when it drives.

 

Once I get it back, I will stop using bluetooth audio as well. In other words, i will be driving a hybrd car without any perk (bluetooth, usb, or electicity plug). Is there anyone whose car has been jump-started 2-3 times and hasn't had the problem for over 3 months since the last occurrence?

 

Michal

 

 

This is my first post concerning the Dead Battery Issue on my 2014 SE (build date 03/14). Car delivered 4/3/14. Battery found dead overnight 4/12/14. Battery voltage was 6.9v. I had been monitoring overnight voltage each morning and it was running just below 12 volts. Since the dead battery occured on a Sunday (dealer not open) I monitored the voltage as it dropped during the day down to 4.7v Sunday evening. By Monday morning the voltage was 2.7v. Had the car towed to the dealer. It has been there for 3 days. They can find nothing wrong (as usual) other than the battery was dead. I figure I might as well get the papertrail started. Service Advisor did not seem up to speed on this issue. Thought there was only a problem with bad batteries on the 2013's. As I explained the problem he commented that I was more up to speed on this issue than he was (go figure!!). Told him it might be a good idea for him to call the Ford Hotline!! I can see this is going to be a long road ahead. I waited to order a 2014 hoping this issue would be solved, and if it was not solved I gambled I would not get a lemon. Strike two - strike three was when the tow truck driver was loading the car for the tow he pranged the front end. I still don't have 300 miles on this vehicle.

 

jaczac56   2.7 volts WOW that’s in the range where REALLY weird things start happening.

Even the electronics that DO NOT have a problem will start using each other as a ground OR battery source.

 

WHICH BRINGS USE BACK TO Salman’s post.

 

[kostby]

And we had our first dead battery yesterday afternoon.

 

2013 C-MAX, panoramic sunroof, 201A, built 04/10/2013, 133 miles when we purchased it on 03-26-2014, so it had been sitting on the dealer's lot for almost a year without much use. 

 

This was the first week we hadn't driven it out of town at all. (Planning to do that Saturday.) Drove it on a short round trip on Sunday April 13th, about 4 miles, then three short trips on Wednesday, April 16th, totaling less than 6 miles, so 3 starts, likely without enough re-charging going on to replenish the 12v???.

No sign of any problems starting or driving on any of the trips. No indication the 12V battery was low, such as the "Low battery. Audio turning off" message.

I've been keeping it locked, in the garage, based upon experiences of others in this thread.

 

Thursday afternoon April 17th, I went out to the garage to unlock and drive it about 4:40 p.m. Completely unresponsive to the remote on-key. Unlocked with key. No interior lights, no sounds, nothing. Put the key in, nothing.

I hooked up the trickle charger to the under-hood ports. When I clicked the key-remote again, the doors unlocked. The center-dash clock was stopped at 9:59 a.m. on Thursday morning.

 

I did not attempt to start the car. Got a 'Dashboard lighting' pop-up on the left driver info screen, showing instrument panel lighting set to maximum.

Then I got a Starting Fault message box with an 'OK' in a box, so I pressed OK.

Then I got a MyKey message - 'Speed limited to 80mph'.

 

I turned on the radio. It did not remember the last tuned-in station.

Center clock display now showed 10:03 (I'd been in the car a few minutes with the trickle charger on.)

I attempted to re-set the clock from the radio Menu setting. Correctly entered the time. The date was correct, so it had been dead less than 12 hours.

The center clock did NOT show the new time when I exited the menu with OK.

I turned the radio ON and tried to set the time from within the radio menu.

Same problem. Set the digits correctly and pressed OK.

Center clock still displayed the wrong time, now about 10:06 (am)

 

So I left it on the trickle charger overnight, and we'll see what happens today.  I didn't call Ford, the dealer, or Roadside assistance, because we have another car to use, and we were busy last evening with church (Maundy Thursday) activities, so it really wasn't convenient then. We'll see how it goes this weekend.

Edited April 18, 2014 by kostby

[ptjones]

It sounds like the car never had enough time to charge the 12v batt. Maybe short trips use more 12v than what's added back. Trickle charger sounds like a good idea. It would have been a good Idea to check the voltage before charging and then after. :)

 

Paul

[salman]

more info on the water pump and shifter:

 

the water pump is electronic.The problem that has been found on some water pumps is that the electrical connector on the pump sometimes allows water into the connection. On my car, when they pulled the pump there was evidence of water intrusion in the electrical connector. The pump connector has been redesigned to stay water tight.

 

the shifter problem is that when the shift lever is put into park sometimes an electrical connection is not shut down, and that may keep the instrument panel (or other instrumentation) running when the car is shut. Not a danger of the car staying on and moving, just a danger of current being drawn from the battery. The shift lever assembly has been redesigned to make sure electrical systems are shut.

 

My car is ready, Was tested after sitting overnight,. Will pick it up tomorrow and hope for the best.

[jaczac56]

Picked up my 2014 SE from the dealer today. They had it for 4 days. They had contacted Ford's Hotline and followed their instructions for testing. There were no outstanding TSBS for my build date (3/14). A number of looms and inline connectors were inspected, coolant pump was checked. Apparently the car was connected to an electrical system monitor because they list a .010 amp drain and that 2 to 3 times an hour it recorded a .300 amp drain lasting 10 to 14 seconds which Ford engineering said was the BCM waking up momentarily - a normal operation. Apparently the car was monitored over an extended period of time because the tech mentions overnight current drain results.  So, at this point they were not able to find any problem other than the dead battery it came in with :-(. Now it's off to the body shop to get the front end ding repaired.

[ptjones]

Did they charge your 12v batt.? It would be interesting to see what the 12voltage is before you start the car. The only time I was concerned was when the HVB fans stayed on after turning off the car. I just restarted the car and turned it off again and they stopped. :) 

 

Paul

[jaczac56]

Yes, the battery tested "good" according to their diagnostics so they recharged it. I was told that "a complementary charge" was all that Ford will offer if their test shows the battery is rechargable. Immediately after shutdown I show 13.12v. By the next morning its right at 12.0v - that is until the car went dead last Saturday night.

[mxanotcar]

Isn't the fully charged 12V battery is about 12.9V, after leveling out from disconnecting from charger, and remains at 12.9V for a long time?  And when a 12V battery voltage goes down to below 12.5V, the battery is nearly empty.  If it is about 12.0V or below for a period of time, the sulphation occurs and overtime make the battery not accepting any charge?

[jdbob]

 

[jaczac56]

Since taking delivery of my C-Max early in April I checked the at rest battery voltage each morning before running the car. It was always right around 12v. After the dead battery incident where Ford checked the car out per the Ford hotline recommendations (and found nothing wrong) the last two mornings the at rest voltage has been 12.8v. I hope this continues - I will keep monitoring to see what happens.

[SnowStorm]

It sounds like the car never had enough time to charge the 12v batt. Maybe short trips use more 12v than what's added back.

 

Paul

From my 12V battery current measurements, they would have to be very short trips.  Once the ignition is ON, the 12V battery gets charged (from HVB) and never discharged.  The charging current can start at 30 or 40 amps, drops quickly, and then slowly drops until its only a "trickle".  Unless you sit around a lot opening doors or whatever with the ignition OFF, its just hard to see how even a short trip wouldn't put enough charge back in - but who knows.

 

Apparently the car was connected to an electrical system monitor because they list a .010 amp drain and that 2 to 3 times an hour it recorded a .300 amp drain lasting 10 to 14 seconds which Ford engineering said was the BCM waking up momentarily - a normal operation. Apparently the car was monitored over an extended period of time because the tech mentions overnight current drain results.  So, at this point they were not able to find any problem other than the dead battery it came in with :-(.

The monitoring results sound quite similar to what I measured overnight here.  So it is the BCM that wakes up periodically.  Thanks for giving these details.

[salman]

it is pretty clearly established that the 12 volt system problems are the result of an electronic system (or systems) in the car that come alive when the car is shut down. When the car sits long enough, it allows the drain to draw down the battery to the point at which it cannot unlock the doors or power up any other systems. The cause for the power drain might be bad ground connections, bad or corrupted electrical connections, faulty switches, and/or problems with software or system modules.All of these have seemed to be culprits in one or more cases. Everything electronic system in the car is a potential culprit.

 

Conversely, it is also pretty clear that the problems reported here are not the result of batteries that don't take or hold charges, nor the result of problems with the step-down converter that charges the 12 volt battery from the LiOn battery. Yes, someone might one day have a bad battery that needs replacing, but that is definitively not the cause of the rash of 12 volt problems reported here (and, yes, after serial 12 volt problems it would be wise to replace the battery, but this has to be distinguished from the initial cause of the problem).

 

Nor are the problems caused by driving habits. Ford would not have bought back any cars or spent $thousands attempting warranty repairs if the problems were due to bad driving habits.

 

To sum it up: there seems to be an engineering and/or part or software design problem or problems in the CMax that cause the 12 volt system problems. Ford has not yet definitively solved the problem. Ford is clearly trying to solve the problem. Ford corporate HQ and most dealers are being very good about the problem (if you have dealer who tells you it is your fault or not a real problem, switch to another dealer for service. You don't need to take the car where you bought it). And Ford has bought back several CMaxs already without fighting over it.

[ptjones]

Checked voltage difference between power point and jumper connect under hood and there was .2v difference. :)

 

Paul

[HPRifleman]

Hopefully they can find the problem, PM Ashley with FORD on this site, she will take care of you. :)

 

Paul

 

What, exactly, does Ashley do to solve this battery problem?

[ptjones]

What, exactly, does Ashley do to solve this battery problem?

She just makes sure that everything that can be done, is being done at the FORD Dealer. :)

 

Paul

[salman]

I think she is a conduit to connect you to the regional customer service managers who work for Ford Corporate. They open a case file, can help to authorize rental cars if a dealer is not doing that, and maybe in the case of a poor service department they can coax the service manager into talking with the Ford hotline.

 

My own opinion is that if you think the service department is subpar, then you should switch to a different service department (as easy as just taking your car to a different dealer's service department next time there is a problem - no arrangements necessary).

 

The main reason to establish a case file with customer service is to have it for your own records and to be able to show that you have taken all reasonable steps to give Ford a full shot at fixing the car.

[HPRifleman]

So the assistance is administrative, not technical? Opening a case file doesn't sound like it addresses the primary objective which is to have a car that will reliably start on demand. Come to think of it, if Ford has not been able to solve this problem at this point, what difference will it make if the dealer is sub-par or not? It sounds like the solution to this problem will have to come from Ford and not the dealer network.

 

Administrative support would be beneficial if the problem was just troubleshooting and one dealer was better at it than another one. From what I can tell from these 12v battery threads, a final fix has not been found regardless of the dealer used or how much administrative support was provided. If this is not correct, someone please say so.