Dead Battery for the fifth time

[FordService]

Well, here I am again...  2014 C-MAX purchased last September.  The Ford dealer replaced the DC-DC converter back in December.  We thought we were good to go.  No trouble for 6 months.   But, this morning, the car would not start.  Same symtoms as ever.  Put the glovebox jumper pack on it and it started right up. 

 

What to do?  How to document this properly?  I did not call roadiside assistance becuase I cannot afford to wait for them and be late to work.  Is there any value in calling them now, after the fact to log the event? 

 

Have there been any new developments since december?  We only have 4700 miles on this car.  The chafe problem addressed by TSB 14-0155 doesn't seem likely.  Maybe the DC-DC converter is going bad again.

 

-BGarr

Hi BGarr,

 

I can check out some options. Please send me a private message with your VIN, best daytime phone number, full name, and dealer name/location.

 

Meagan

[bgarr]

Thanks, Meagan,  I sent you a PM.

[FordService]

Thanks, Meagan,  I sent you a PM.

Got it!

 

Meagan

[Rle]

Dead battery for the fifth time.

[Rle]

Our 2013 cmax was towed in yesterday for the fourth time with a dead battery. It has happened seven times, but sometimes we are just too busy to have it towed, only to be told that nothing is wrong with it.

 

I spent half my day yesterday on the phone with various people. All of them work for a company with "Ford" in the name, but almost none of them are responsible for anything, apparently. One of them explained that if only I had backed the car into the garage, the towing service could drag it out without jumping it.

 

I finally got a case number and had it. "Elevated" to the regional service rep. He called and assured me that the boys back at the lab were going to be all over my case. He also, however, acted as if he had never heard of this problem, which is contrary to what the dealer service department has told me, and, contrary to the record found online on this site, for example.

 

I have now read many of the comments on this site, which will be helpful come Monday when someone tries to come up with a story line to explain what is happening with the car.

 

I have a copy of Minnesota's lemon law sitting on my desk.

[wab]

Greetings RIe
 
Is you car up to date on ALL the dead battery TSB's?
This is the newest.
http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/4797-tsb-14-0155-hybrid-and-energi-–-discharged-12-volt-battery/
and I think this is the oldest.
http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/3138-tsb-13-7-10-12-volt-battery-discharged-will-not-hold-charge-radio-with-42-inch-display-only-built-before-6222013-supersedes-tsb-13-04-13/

Check the maintenance and TSB sub forum.
http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/forum/15-maintenance-tsbs-recalls/
 
Send Meagan (our Ford Customer Service member) a PM with your name VIN and mileage, it's the open envelope at the top of the page close to your user name.
You'll need 5 post before you can send PM's, go the "Test Forum" sub forum and start 3 new threads or reply to 3 existing threads.

[ptjones]

Our 2013 cmax was towed in yesterday for the fourth time with a dead battery. It has happened seven times, but sometimes we are just too busy to have it towed, only to be told that nothing is wrong with it.

 

I spent half my day yesterday on the phone with various people. All of them work for a company with "Ford" in the name, but almost none of them are responsible for anything, apparently. One of them explained that if only I had backed the car into the garage, the towing service could drag it out without jumping it.

 

I finally got a case number and had it. "Elevated" to the regional service rep. He called and assured me that the boys back at the lab were going to be all over my case. He also, however, acted as if he had never heard of this problem, which is contrary to what the dealer service department has told me, and, contrary to the record found online on this site, for example.

 

I have now read many of the comments on this site, which will be helpful come Monday when someone tries to come up with a story line to explain what is happening with the car.

 

I have a copy of Minnesota's lemon law sitting on my desk.

I hope you follow through on this so they have to figure out what your problem is. I know it is a real pain, but it is the only way they can solve this issue.  It would be sure nice if they could supply you a monitor that would record any voltage drains to see what device is doing it. IMO :drop:

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

...

I have a copy of Minnesota's lemon law sitting on my desk.

7X dead battery, 4X towed to dealer..... What are you waiting for? -- a miracle. :)

 

Seriously, I'd put Ford on notice immediately which should give them one last chance to remedy the issue.   When you elevated the case, did you put it in writing to start the clock on the lemon law (make sure everything is included that is required to put Ford on notice).    The process will likely be lengthy as Ford will likely have you go to arbitration if when the issue reoccurs and you may have to file a lawsuit if you are not happy with the arbitration decision. 

 

The question I always have on the lemon law in situations like this, if Ford says there is nothing wrong and hence nothing to fix, does one have to wait for another occurrence of the issue after giving Ford the notice?  7X clearly indicates an unresolved issue, IMO.  

[ptjones]

I hope you like the car enough to force FORD to find the problem  instead of going through the pain of the Lemon Law.  It actually could be cheaper for FORD to go the Lemon Law route than spend the time to figure out what the real problem is. IMO I hope they figure it out. :)

 

Paul

[obob]

  It would be sure nice if they could supply you a monitor that would record any voltage drains to see what device is doing it. IMO :drop:

 

Paul

 

THIS is something I would feel good about, like Ford really had there act together.  Tesla probably has this type of thing already built into the car, and would be surprised if that were not the case with Ford in the future.

Edited May 10, 2015 by obob

[Rle]

So to update the story, the car was towed in on May 8 and the regional service rep called me and told me that he would be getting back to me.  As of May 15 I had heard nothing from him or the dealer.  I called him and he said that the car was "fixed" on Wednesday and that they would keep it another week to test it.  Then the dealer service manager called me and said that the car was finished, they had no further tests to do and that I could pick up the car any time.  I asked him what the problem was and how they fixed it.  He said they reprogrammed the computer because that is what Ford told them to do.  But he could not say that the problem (unidentified) was fixed.  

 

I called the regional service rep back and told him I did not want the car anymore.  He told me that he could not help me further.  He said it was not his job to help a customer who wanted to return the car.  The car is still at the dealer after the last phony "repair."

 

I appreciate the people who are trying to help and providing tips for avoiding the problem.  But I just want a car that works.  It is not my job to make Ford a better company.

 

So today I filed my case with the Better Business Bureau who runs the Minnesota Lemon Law mediation and arbitration process for Ford. The car is leased through "Ford Credit" and I was tempted to just quit making lease payments.  But one thing I have learned in this process is having the "Ford" name on your company means nothing.  "Ford" Credit has no responsibility except to ruin my credit rating if I fail to make a payment for a car that doesn't work, sold by a "Ford" dealer who can't fix it, and manufactured by the "Ford Motor Company" who clearly couldn't care less what they put their name on.  To a Ford person, "customer service" means keeping the customer guessing until they give up.  

 

Needless to say this is my last Ford product.  If I lose the arbitration I will likely sue them.  (I am a former trial lawyer, so I can do it cheaper than most can).  If I lose there, I will just send in all the remaining lease payments and tell them to keep the car.   

[plus 3 golfer]

So to update the story, the car was towed in on May 8 and the regional service rep called me and told me that he would be getting back to me.  As of May 15 I had heard nothing from him or the dealer.  I called him and he said that the car was "fixed" on Wednesday and that they would keep it another week to test it.  Then the dealer service manager called me and said that the car was finished, they had no further tests to do and that I could pick up the car any time.  I asked him what the problem was and how they fixed it.  He said they reprogrammed the computer because that is what Ford told them to do.  But he could not say that the problem (unidentified) was fixed.  

 

I called the regional service rep back and told him I did not want the car anymore.  He told me that he could not help me further.  He said it was not his job to help a customer who wanted to return the car.  The car is still at the dealer after the last phony "repair."

 

I appreciate the people who are trying to help and providing tips for avoiding the problem.  But I just want a car that works.  It is not my job to make Ford a better company.

 

So today I filed my case with the Better Business Bureau who runs the Minnesota Lemon Law mediation and arbitration process for Ford. The car is leased through "Ford Credit" and I was tempted to just quit making lease payments.  But one thing I have learned in this process is having the "Ford" name on your company means nothing.  "Ford" Credit has no responsibility except to ruin my credit rating if I fail to make a payment for a car that doesn't work, sold by a "Ford" dealer who can't fix it, and manufactured by the "Ford Motor Company" who clearly couldn't care less what they put their name on.  To a Ford person, "customer service" means keeping the customer guessing until they give up.  

 

Needless to say this is my last Ford product.  If I lose the arbitration I will likely sue them.  (I am a former trial lawyer, so I can do it cheaper than most can).  If I lose there, I will just send in all the remaining lease payments and tell them to keep the car.   

FYI, did you see this recent CSP?  This may be the reprogramming that was done and maybe this will "fix" the "dead battery" issue.  It wouldn't surprise me if the dealer or the regional manager were not aware of the impending release of the CSP. 

 

I would think someone will eventually post the specifics of 15b04.  

[Madmax98]

I am having dead battery issues on my 2013 Cmax Energi.
purchased used 5/5/15 with about 90K miles on it.

Dealer jump started it when I first test drove car.
First time it died, I may have left the car on (did double honk when I tried to lock doors, left car for 30 minutes when parked and car may have been in EV only mode for previous 2 days.

 

(Not clear to me if engine needs to run to charge the 12V LVB?) Some posts imply charging is done from main hybrid battery rather than traditional alternator?

2nd time Died this morning in driveway after wife drove earlier without incident but had been charging eV overnight.

After jump start, drove around the block a couple times,  died again within 10 minutes after parking it.

Jumped a 3rd time, started up, but then died again when trying to start car.

Took battery out (lot of work!), took to Sears, they put on their machine which declared the battery as dead after charging for an hour.

Took battery immediately to Advance Auto parts who shows battery as good, CCA a little low like 350 CCA instead of 390CCA rating, but overall battery report shows as good.
Not sure which test to believe at this point, but it's possible that all the charging done on the Sears machine made battery look better to the Advance Auto machine.

 

I took it to local Ford Dealer first week after purchase where they supposedly did all recall work,but not clear if they did any TSP 14-0155 stuff.

Will Ford pay the dealer for the TSP 14-0155 work?

 

I put the battery back in but didn't put completely back together yet, to make it easier to take out again if needed.

 

I have been replacing some bulbs with LED's, but find it hard to believe that would kill battery - they should draw less current than old bulbs.

 

I will leave overnight without charging with wall charger to see if that is why hasn't been dying more often....

Edited May 21, 2015 by Madmax98

[Madmax98]

Just reading about what appears to be a new CSP 15B04 in another thread.

 

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/5091-customer-satisfaction-program-15b04/

 

Is this work that Ford will pay for?

Does car still need to be under warranty (under 80K miles)?

 

As my luck would have it, my VIN is NOT covered under this CSP for some reason.... arghh!

 

Left car overnight in garage, didn't connect to EV wall charger.

 

I did unplug a USB charger that has a blue led that stays lit when car off.  can't believe this draws enough to drain battery at all, but will eliminate from the possibilities for kicks.

 

Started up this AM, drove across town in AM, parked with DRL on, futzed around testing onboard voltage readout, looking for chafing in between body and door (though this doesn't seem to be where chafing reported in that TSP 14-0155 appears to be inside the body.

Voltage this AM seems ok bouncing between 12.7 and 12.8 (not sure if this really indicates a drain on current anywhere however).

 

Going to have to just wait and see if it happens again.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Madmax98

[Bill-N]

(Not clear to me if engine needs to run to charge the 12V LVB?) Some posts imply charging is done from main hybrid battery rather than traditional alternator?

 

(Original post edited my me.)

 

The 12V battery is charged by the high-voltage battery; the high-voltage battery is charged by the engine and/or plug-in.

[PJFW8]

Madmax, double honk can also mean the access fob was left in vehicle.  Keep the fob well away from the car. Lincoln MKC also had a problem if the fob was stored too close to the vehicle (the MKC detects that someone is approaching). The Energi is a great car. Don't give up. The 12 volt problem is much less common than with the hybrid.  2 tips: always leave the car plugged in at home and invest in a smart 12 volt charger and charge every few months. I have had one failure in 28,000 miles. DrDiesel has a great recommendation for a great and reasonably priced charger.  Good luck.

[Madmax98]

Well, I found a 'somewhat' repeatable way to kill my battery, but I don't know if it means my battery is bad or whether a system problem killed the battery, or whether a new battery will just get killed prematurely again due to some system problem.

 

This is 2013 Cmax Energi with DRL (daytime running lights) option, no Nav.

Not sure how to find the build date?

Start with a reasonably fresh 12V battery charge (by driving around the block or at least revving engine, go into reverse and forward, back to Park, but EV battery should be drained so only drive mode option is AUTO.

 

1) Get in Car with Key.

2) Don't put foot on brake pedal

3) Lights are on full OFF position (All the way left or position 1 out of 4 position switch).

4) Hit Start button

'Accessory mode' starts, turns on DRL, radio, bluetooth, Touch screen, etc.

Wait between 1 and 2 minutes and battery will start dropping voltage until tries to go into battery save mode, but DRL stay on which finally kills battery within 2 or 3 minutes.  Many times I could see voltage start dropping at 30 second mark, display goes dark at 1 minute, battery completely dead within 3 minutes as DRL go through a flicker mode while battery drained.

 

I was able to kill the battery like this about 3 out of 5 times I tried the same exact steps.

 

Sometimes, however, it seemed like it could last much longer, like 5 or 10 minutes before I gave up which is the most puzzling /frustrating part.

 

If you hold down LEFT OK button on steering wheel and keep holding for 10 seconds after hitting the start button in step 4 above, you can get into diagnostic mode and hit LEFT side up arrow 5 times to get to battery voltage screen and watch it drop.

You can also hear the subtle electronics hum drop in tone as battery dies if you are in quiet environment, windows up.

 

I can understand that 'normally', users would not start up in accessory mode and just sit in the car for more than a minute before driving, so maybe there is some reason that battery starts draining quickly if car is trying to go into some kind of battery save mode, but failing perhaps since battery save mode was not designed or expecting the DRL option?  

 

Even so, 2 minutes seems awfully and unnaturally short time to kill battery.

 

If I hit start/end button once after driving, the car is waiting for you to open door and get out of car, but if I stay in car, lights seem to turn off by themselves before killing battery, which is nice to know assuming consistent.

 

I was hoping that perhaps the car would save the battery better when lights are on 'Automatic' setting - all the way right or position 4 in my 4 position switch, but I was able to kill the car in that switch setting as well.

 

Most times when I killed battery, I stopped around 9.5 volts.  Then I started car with engine by holding foot on brake with start button which seemed to charge battery right away back up to the 12.8 starting point.

 

Any other thoughts that this could really just be a bad 2 year old battery (which by the way are not yet sold as replacement parts by anyone around here).

 

I may ask if Ford will at least give me a new Motorcraft battery from a the dealer to try out if they won't cover the labor too...

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice.

[plus 3 golfer]

Well, I found a 'somewhat' repeatable way to kill my battery, but I don't know if it means my battery is bad or whether a system problem killed the battery, or whether a new battery will just get killed prematurely again due to some system problem.

 

This is 2013 Cmax Energi with DRL (daytime running lights) option, no Nav.

Not sure how to find the build date?

Start with a reasonably fresh 12V battery charge (by driving around the block or at least revving engine, go into reverse and forward, back to Park, but EV battery should be drained so only drive mode option is AUTO.

 

1) Get in Car with Key.

2) Don't put foot on brake pedal

3) Lights are on full OFF position (All the way left or position 1 out of 4 position switch).

4) Hit Start button

'Accessory mode' starts, turns on DRL, radio, bluetooth, Touch screen, etc.

Wait between 1 and 2 minutes and battery will start dropping voltage until tries to go into battery save mode, but DRL stay on which finally kills battery within 2 or 3 minutes.  Many times I could see voltage start dropping at 30 second mark, display goes dark at 1 minute, battery completely dead within 3 minutes as DRL go through a flicker mode while battery drained.

 

I was able to kill the battery like this about 3 out of 5 times I tried the same exact steps.

 

Sometimes, however, it seemed like it could last much longer, like 5 or 10 minutes before I gave up which is the most puzzling /frustrating part.

 

If you hold down LEFT OK button on steering wheel and keep holding for 10 seconds after hitting the start button in step 4 above, you can get into diagnostic mode and hit LEFT side up arrow 5 times to get to battery voltage screen and watch it drop.

You can also hear the subtle electronics hum drop in tone as battery dies if you are in quiet environment, windows up.

 

I can understand that 'normally', users would not start up in accessory mode and just sit in the car for more than a minute before driving, so maybe there is some reason that battery starts draining quickly if car is trying to go into some kind of battery save mode, but failing perhaps since battery save mode was not designed or expecting the DRL option?  

 

Even so, 2 minutes seems awfully and unnaturally short time to kill battery.

 

If I hit start/end button once after driving, the car is waiting for you to open door and get out of car, but if I stay in car, lights seem to turn off by themselves before killing battery, which is nice to know assuming consistent.

 

I was hoping that perhaps the car would save the battery better when lights are on 'Automatic' setting - all the way right or position 4 in my 4 position switch, but I was able to kill the car in that switch setting as well.

 

Most times when I killed battery, I stopped around 9.5 volts.  Then I started car with engine by holding foot on brake with start button which seemed to charge battery right away back up to the 12.8 starting point.

 

Any other thoughts that this could really just be a bad 2 year old battery (which by the way are not yet sold as replacement parts by anyone around here).

 

I may ask if Ford will at least give me a new Motorcraft battery from a the dealer to try out if they won't cover the labor too...

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice.

If ICE started, how is the battery dead?

 

The voltage entry positions for most sensor monitoring OBD functions is 11 V, for more critical functions is 8 V and for critical hybrid components is 6 V.   So, sounds to me like if the voltage was 9.5 V, critical functions and critical hybrid functions were still active and ICE was able to start.  IIRC, some owners that have had a "real" dead battery, no start condition measured around 6 V or less on the 12  V system.

 

Bottom line is that is sounds like your car shut down systems appropriately when voltage began to drop, since you were able to start the car.  

[jdbob]

Sounds like a sulfated battery to me. Every time the battery is discharged and it sits in that condition it gets even worse. My Energi ended with a dead battery a few times before I removed the defective TCU (cell phone modem for MyFord Mobile).

 

Every couple of months I hook up an external battery charger that has a de-sulfating feature. I plan on just keeping the current damaged battery in the hope that at some point a proper deep-cycle AGM battery is available to fit the C-Max.

[Madmax98]

Was/is the defective TCU (cell phone modem) covered under any recall?

 

Do you think the draining corresponded with some defective attempt to connect to Sync/ my ford mobile systems?

 

I've got a trickle charger, what is make/model of a de-sulfating charger?

 

@plus3 golfer - During most of my tests where voltage drain began, I was stopping the drain at 9ish Volts (1-2 minutes), just so that I could start engine without jump start.

If I didn't stop at 9ish, DRL would stay on even after other gear/displays shut down, and eventually (within 5 minutes) DRL start flickering and would completely kill battery to point of not being able to start without external jump start.

[jdbob]

In TSB 14-0155 regarding various reasons for a dead 12V battery one of the items was:

 

5. Is the vehicle and Energi built on or before 9/12/2013?

  a Yes - replace telematics control unit (TCU) Module. Refer to WSM, Section 415-00. Proceed to Step 6.

 

So not a recall. I live in an area without AT&T 2G Data so MFM wouldn't work here even with a good TCU, so I just removed it rather than having it replaced.

 

The charger I have is a http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H961YI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

There are lots of chargers with de-sulfating available. This charger isn't particularly good but seems to do the job. I set the battery type to AGM otherwise it wants to charge the battery to an absurd voltage.

[John Sparks]

Check this out.

Edited May 22, 2015 by John Sparks

[plus 3 golfer]

Check this out.

 

I'll bet Ford finally found a way to mitigate the dead battery issue by reprogramming the PCM and several other modules to perhaps detect "awake" module and perhaps put them to bed so as not to drain the 12 V battery. 

[Sea-Max]

We have had this happen 4 times.  These occur randomly and about every 4 - 6 months.  When it happens everything is completely dead.  I now carry a battery pack in the trunk. A 5 minute or less jolt seems to all that it takes.  Ford seems baffeled.  They have tried everything including total reprogramming.  our C-max is 2013.

[plus 3 golfer]

We have had this happen 4 times.  These occur randomly and about every 4 - 6 months.  When it happens everything is completely dead.  I now carry a battery pack in the trunk. A 5 minute or less jolt seems to all that it takes.  Ford seems baffeled.  They have tried everything including total reprogramming.  our C-max is 2013.

Welcome

 

What reprogramming did Ford do (should be on Service Orders)?  How long ago was the latest reprogramming?  This latest CSP 15B04 (5/18/2015) requires reprogramming the PCM and several modules.  I'd check with the dealer and get 15B04 done.