Oil changes / synthetic oil?

[SPL Tech]

The manual on my 2013 CMAX is a bit ambiguous as to when you should actually change the oil. So apparently the vehicle tells me when to change the oil, based on driving conditions, and I need to reset the change interval every time I change the oil, correct? The manual says that otherwise the oil should be changed every 10,000 miles. That seems extreme for conventional oil in a worst-case scenario of 100% highway driving. Most oil manufacturers will not guarantee conventional oil to last that long. The longest I have seen is 5,000 miles (Mobil 1 clean 5000). Usually the use of oil beyond 5,000 miles requires synthetic, which can last 10,000 - 30,000 miles depending on the oil.

 

In any case, I only plan to use synthetic oil as it's superior. However, I am curious why Ford does not explicitly recommend synthetic. In my Ford Excursion with a massive 6.8L V10 I noticed about a 5% gain in MPG with Royal Purple over standard oil. Ford goes to great lengths to make the CMAX max out on MPG, but they are missing one of the easiest ways to gain MPG: switch to synthetic oil. Seems strange.

In any case, for 90% highway driving with full synthetic oil, what is an appropriate change interval? Normally I do 10,000 miles, but Ford is saying 10,000 miles is fine for conventional oil (which I find hard to believe), so if true, synthetic should last much longer, no?

 

[drdiesel1]

I run 100% synthetic Royal Purple 0W20 and change it every 5K ICE miles or every 12 months.

It's cheap insurance and I don't worry about acid's attacking the oil seals and causing oil leaks.

[SPL Tech]

That seems unnecessary. Standard Mobil Clean 5000 can go that long. The Castrol Longlife SLX II synthetic oil I used in my VW was rated by the manufacturer for 30,000 miles of highway driving with 10k filter changes, and a minimum of 9,000 miles in severe conditions. Have you sent your oil in for analysis? That will tell you for sure how often you need to change it, although I doubt 5,000 miles on synthetic is much.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/stop-changing-your-oil.html

Edited November 23, 2014 by SPL Tech

[lowbar]

As you mention by the book the oil should be changed when the computer says so not to exceed one year or 10k miles.  Keep in mind the car does come with synthetic blend oil.  Either the blend or full synthetic could easily go 10k miles in this car where the ICE is not running full time.  The bigger danger is contamination.  I chose to stick with the synthetic blend and change it at 5k miles.  I have the dealer perform The Works which is relativiely cheap and everything gets checked, tire rotated, etc.  I find keeping tracking of 5k intervals is easier to monitor.  I am not trying to sell my way of doing things.  I'm just sharing.

[fotomoto]

You also have to take into account that the ICE will not have 10k miles on it once you subtract EV miles.    The Energi model has the exact same ICE and oil but has a two year 20k mile interval.

 

As has all ready been said, the original oil is a semi-synthetic not conventional.  Also, it's 5-20w but Ford has now approved 0w-20 use too.  

[SPL Tech]

Will 0W-20 provide better fuel economy being thinner? Does this engine have any higher risk of contamination than any other engine, because I see 7,500 - 10,000 changes becoming the norm for most manufacturers?

Edited November 24, 2014 by SPL Tech

[drdiesel1]

That seems unnecessary. Standard Mobil Clean 5000 can go that long. The Castrol Longlife SLX II synthetic oil I used in my VW was rated by the manufacturer for 30,000 miles of highway driving with 10k filter changes, and a minimum of 9,000 miles in severe conditions. Have you sent your oil in for analysis? That will tell you for sure how often you need to change it, although I doubt 5,000 miles on synthetic is much.

 

http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/stop-changing-your-oil.html

 

 

It's what I chose to do. You can do whatever you like.

[Edward R Stewart]

Will 0W-20 provide better fuel economy being thinner? Does this engine have any higher risk of contamination than any other engine, because I see 7,500 - 10,000 changes becoming the norm for most manufacturers?

 

For me the question is, will full synthetic vs. blend give better fuel economy???? The 2014 manual says OW-20, Fords Blend.

[fbov]

Here is test data for my two oil changes. The first change was not sampled as it was still my Father-in-law's car (c. 5,600 miles), so these represent 5K-15K and 15K to 25K engine operation intervals. The most recent was done early, as the car was already going in for failure of the restraints control module (TSB14S21).

 

Given the 15K sample was short on TBN, I wish I'd run comparable mileage - 9,8K vs 10.2K the first time - to see if it continued down. Everything else improved, especially the wear components. Now running 0W20 full synthetic, but Auto Zone brand... dealer's choice, not mine. Next change will be out of warranty, so I'll select the oil.

 

I have always run my Volvos on 10K intervals with full syntheitc oil with no engine issues out beyond 300K miles, so I have no reason to believe shorter change intervals benefit anyone but the oil manufacturers' sales figures. That said, hybrid operation, while low on relative mileage, is high on stress miles due to higher load, frequent starts, and longer time to operating temperature. I was curious, so I did the sampling, and will continue to do so.

 

As to fuel economy 0W20 synth vs. 5W20 blend, the blend wins, 57.42 to 56.69 MPG, but with 2.2F higher temps, and such a high level of overlap in the range (blend: 52.2-63.2; synth: 52.9-61.3) that leds me to believe it's a wash. Regardless, the real test would be winter driving, when the engine never reaches operating temperature, so the 0W-side of viscosity will matter more. Sadly, that won't be a fair fight, as I'm getting ~15% better mileage this summer than last, due to improved driving technique, which I expect will continue this winter.

 

Again, the driver is the biggest variable. Do what your understanding leads you to expect will be an improvement, then drive like you want to confirm the improvement, and you will!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[jmckinley]

The oil change warning thing was discussed a while ago.  While the Owner's Manual and some of the brochures sort of insinuate that the oil monitor keeps track of multiple factors to decide when the oil needs changing, I'm pretty sure it just lights up at 10,000 miles.  No magic here, just mileage.

[homestead]

Mine came on at 1 yr mark, only had 8k miles on it at the time.

[SPL Tech]

Here is test data for my two oil changes. The first change was not sampled as it was still my Father-in-law's car (c. 5,600 miles), so these represent 5K-15K and 15K to 25K engine operation intervals. The most recent was done early, as the car was already going in for failure of the restraints control module (TSB14S21).

 

Given the 15K sample was short on TBN, I wish I'd run comparable mileage - 9,8K vs 10.2K the first time - to see if it continued down. Everything else improved, especially the wear components. Now running 0W20 full synthetic, but Auto Zone brand... dealer's choice, not mine. Next change will be out of warranty, so I'll select the oil.

 

I have always run my Volvos on 10K intervals with full syntheitc oil with no engine issues out beyond 300K miles, so I have no reason to believe shorter change intervals benefit anyone but the oil manufacturers' sales figures. That said, hybrid operation, while low on relative mileage, is high on stress miles due to higher load, frequent starts, and longer time to operating temperature. I was curious, so I did the sampling, and will continue to do so.

 

As to fuel economy 0W20 synth vs. 5W20 blend, the blend wins, 57.42 to 56.69 MPG, but with 2.2F higher temps, and such a high level of overlap in the range (blend: 52.2-63.2; synth: 52.9-61.3) that leds me to believe it's a wash. Regardless, the real test would be winter driving, when the engine never reaches operating temperature, so the 0W-side of viscosity will matter more. Sadly, that won't be a fair fight, as I'm getting ~15% better mileage this summer than last, due to improved driving technique, which I expect will continue this winter.

 

Again, the driver is the biggest variable. Do what your understanding leads you to expect will be an improvement, then drive like you want to confirm the improvement, and you will!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

Isint the point of going with a 0W oil that it is thinner and produces less resistance than heavier weight oils? If a blend 5W did better than a full synthetic 0W, it seems like there is especially no reason to switch to 0W, especially considering the 5W would theoretically provide more protection in the heat. I have always seen 0W marketed as either extreme cold oil, or high MPG oil due to it's thinner nature.

Edited November 25, 2014 by SPL Tech

[plus 3 golfer]

Isint the point of going with a 0W oil that it is thinner and produces less resistance than heavier weight oils? If a blend 5W did better than a full synthetic 0W, it seems like there is especially no reason to switch to 0W, especially considering the 5W would theoretically provide more protection in the heat. I have always seen 0W marketed as either extreme cold oil, or high MPG oil due to it's thinner nature.

It (more protection from the heat) depends on the oil.  A 0W oil with a higher viscosity index than a 5W oil may provide the same / higher durability at high temperatures.  

 

Below is a comparison of Mobil 1 with the Motorcraft oil with respect to viscosity.  Note that Mobil 1 should provide better durability in hot weather than 5W20 Motorcraft full or blended synthetic  The higher VI of Mobil 1 means that the slope of the viscosity index vs temperature curve is flatter than the Motorcraft oils.

 

--------------------cSt@40C -cSt@100c -- Viscosity Index

0W20 Mobil 1 -- 44.8 ----------- 8.7 ------------- 173

 

5W20 Full ------- 45.9------------ 8.3 ------------- 159

5W20 Blend----- 50 -------------- 8.7 ------------- 164

0W20 Blend --- 44.69 --------- 8.52 ------------- 169

 

With respect to viscosity, I want a lower cSt@40*C for winter performance, a higher cSt@100*C for hot weather, and a higher viscosity index as that is a calculated value from Cst numbers to indicate viscosity change to temperature (higher means less change in viscosity for temperature difference).   One other point and that is the numbers above would be for virgin oil.  If one wants to know how their oil is performing (especially viscosity and TBN), one needs to get a Used Oil Analysis.

 

With respect to FE, we don't know how the viscosity of the oils hold up over use.  A heavier weight oil could become thinner quicker than a lower weight oil and provide better FE.  Also, I think the hoopla about better FE with synthetic, lower weight oils that meets manufacturers' specs (even Mobil 1 0W20) is that the comparison of FE improvement is usually against a heavier weight, conventional oil.  So I wouldn't expect a FE difference to be easy to see in the real world among the oils above. 

[fbov]

Isint the point ...

You missed the point... if we take the time to post, please take the time to comprehend what we say.

 

There was no difference in mileage between old 5W20 and new 0W20 in warm weather. Nor would one expect a difference in warm weather. The absolute mileage difference (0.73 mpg) is substantially explained by the difference in ambient temperature (2.2F) and a known temperature affect on mileage (2.2F x 0.28MPG/F = 0.62mpg), based on my own mileage records over that period.

and

"...the real test would be winter driving..."

 

+1 to Plus 3's discussion. Here's a real good site for oil information.

 

The bottom line remains that mileage depends on the driver more than everything else combined.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[ScubaDadMiami]

I changed to 0W20 at just before 10,000 miles. I am at about 16,500. I can't say that I see any real difference.

[Adrian_L]

In my opinion, changing full synthetic oil after 5,000 miles is a bit like changing your windshield wipers every two months. 

[jmckinley]

Mine came on at 1 yr mark, only had 8k miles on it at the time.

Mine came on at exactly 10,000 miles.  So it sounds like it is 10K or one year, whichever comes first.  No other factors involved.

[SPL Tech]

If the car comes with synthetic blend oil, and the blend is required to maintain 10,000k miles, why does it not specify that in the manual? It simply says to use certified 5W20, it does not specify the need for a blend or full synthetic.

[fotomoto]

 It simply says to use certified 5W20, it does not specify the need for a blend or full synthetic.

 

If you can find a conventional oil that meets those stated certification specifications, you can use it.    AFAIK, only syn blends or full syn meet the specs.  

[SPL Tech]

If you can find a conventional oil that meets those stated certification specifications, you can use it.    AFAIK, only syn blends or full syn meet the specs.  

What is the specification? I thought you can use any off the shelf 5W-20 you find at Wal-Mart? I see it lists the "specification or part number" as:

 

XO-5W20-QSP

(U.S.)

Motorcraft SAE 5W-20

Motor Oil

Engine oil 5, 6 4.5 quarts (4.3L)

XO-5W20-QFS

(U.S.)

CXO-5W20-LSP12

(Canada)

CXO-5W20-LFS12

(Canada)

/ WSS-M2C945-A

with API certification

mark

 

But I dont know if those are all part numbers, or if they are special Ford specifications that have to be listed on the bottle. For example, with my VW Diesel Jetta, the oil had to say on the bottle it met VW 504.00 specification, which most oils do not. Can I pull any 5W-20 off the Wal-Mart shelf and buy that, or am I looking for a special Ford standard printed on the bottle?

Edited November 26, 2014 by SPL Tech

[plus 3 golfer]

For warranty purposes the oil must meet or exceed Ford Spec.:

 

WSS-M2C945-A (Motorcraft 5W20 Blend or Full Synthetic) 
WSS-M2C947-A (Motorcraft 0W20 Blend)

[SPL Tech]

For warranty purposes the oil must meet or exceed Ford Spec.:

 

WSS-M2C945-A (Motorcraft 5W20 Blend or Full Synthetic) 

WSS-M2C947-A (Motorcraft 0W20 Blend)

How do I know if the oil meets the spec?  I went to the auto parts store to find some oil, and I could not find one 5W-20 bottle that has the WSS-M2C945-A spec listed on the back, and I looked at the best of the best: Royal Purple, Castrol, Mobil 1, Ect.

 

Is there a list of all known oils that meet the spec?

[plus 3 golfer]

How do I know if the oil meets the spec?  I went to the auto parts store to find some oil, and I could not find one 5W-20 bottle that has the WSS-M2C945-A spec listed on the back, and I looked at the best of the best: Royal Purple, Castrol, Mobil 1, Ect.

 

Is there a list of all known oils that meet the spec?

You didn't look to hard because my 0W20 AFE Mobil 1 5 quart jug clearly has WSS-M2C945-A listed on it

[Tomasz Karwowski]

Hello - i must to change oli - can i use:

 

GULF 5W-20 API SN, GL-G - but i do not have any information about ford spec. (in Poland)

 

On Ebay.com i USA:

Gulfpride® Advanced Fuel Efficient Synthetic Blend Motor Oils are designed for today’s higher revving, hotter running engines. SAE 5W-20 meets Ford’s latest performance standard WSS-M2C945-A.

 

(http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gulf-Gulfpride-Advanced-Fuel-Efficient-Synthetic-Blend-Motor-Oil-5W-20-Quart-/261932725754?hash=item3cfc6835fa:g:C7gAAOSwk0pVgG~F&vxp=mtr)

 

Is it a official specification?? 

[fbov]

Trying a second time...

 

5W20 API SN is the right oil in terms of industry standards. The  WSS-M2C945-A Ford standard you show is correct per the 2013 owners' manual, with an alternate published in the 2015 manual for 0W20 weight, WSS-M2C947-A.

 

Have fun,

Frank