High Transmission Temperature

[cheezy]

New fluid won't provide better lubrication if the issue is a bad transmission design. New fluid would only help if the issue is that the fluid is wearing out & not providing adequate protection.

 

If the ATF has been baked with a pre-heater in the garage (As OP states) before even driving anywhere AND the high temps of running with full grill blocks, at OT of 75-85 degrees, who has created the "bad design"?

 

This "Temperature thread" started with a Scan Gauge tool used, which the OP says is giving false readings at 35% higher than the Dealership's measuring device; if it was reading bad to start with, the ENTIRE premise here of problem/solution is null and void.

 

Again, KISS;  if it appears that a system is running hot, and it has a cooling/lubricating fluid, you do a check/change of the fluid. What you do NOT do is continue eliminating the FoMoCo cooling features with a sheet of plastic on the grill of the car, AND ignore the fluid levels, continuing to drive as the Trans. noises get worse. Who does that and WHY? Just to spite, who?  

 

So, still no answer as to whether or not the Dealer in NM was made aware of the grill block being used, or if the grill block was removed before arriving there. Now, before some get their panties in a wad let's just take a look from a different angle here; When YOU have what is definitively a Warranty issue, w/o a doubt, but the Service Manager refuses to cover it-why do you think that is? You have never altered your vehicle in violation of the warranty policy, but it's being denied anyway.

 

Do you know why Occam's Razor is so well applied to vehicle problems? It works to save time and money, and grief. What an idea. Been there, done that, DOZENS of times in the FACTORY doing team "Problem Solving" on Production Lines.  

 

 

Let's just pause a moment: Who has had Trans failures? Nothing by hearsay- you have had one in YOUR vehicle.

 

Thanks for helping out.        

[ptjones]

If the ATF has been baked with a pre-heater in the garage (As OP states) before even driving anywhere AND the high temps of running with full grill blocks, at OT of 75-85 degrees, who has created the "bad design"?

This "Temperature thread" started with a Scan Gauge tool used, which the OP says is giving false readings at 35% higher than the Dealership's measuring device; if it was reading bad to start with, the ENTIRE premise here of problem/solution is null and void.

 

Again, KISS;  if it appears that a system is running hot, and it has a cooling/lubricating fluid, you do a check/change of the fluid. What you do NOT do is continue eliminating the FoMoCo cooling features with a sheet of plastic on the grill of the car, AND ignore the fluid levels, continuing to drive as the Trans. noises get worse. Who does that and WHY? Just to spite, who?  

 

So, still no answer as to whether or not the Dealer in NM was made aware of the grill block being used, or if the grill block was removed before arriving there. Now, before some get their panties in a wad let's just take a look from a different angle here; When YOU have what is definitively a Warranty issue, w/o a doubt, but the Service Manager refuses to cover it-why do you think that is? You have never altered your vehicle in violation of the warranty policy, but it's being denied anyway.

 

Do you know why Occam's Razor is so well applied to vehicle problems? It works to save time and money, and grief. What an idea. Been there, done that, DOZENS of times in the FACTORY doing team "Problem Solving" on Production Lines.  

 

 

Let's just pause a moment: Who has had Trans failures? Nothing by hearsay- you have had one in YOUR vehicle.

 

Thanks for helping out.        

Obviously you still haven't read the thread very well or otherwise you would know that we fixed the ScanGaugeII code so it reads the right temperture.  Also the Trans heater was a Wolverine M-9 125watt/120vac stick on to the bottom of Trans which Rich FORD removed when they replaced the Trans.  BTW Trans is made of Aluminum, transfers heat very well and 125Watt heater would only raise temp by no more than 20*F by itself, no cooking involved here. :stirpot:

BTW my FORD Dealer didn't think it was necessary to check the fluid if it wasn't leaking. 

 

You also missed the part where :detective:  I figured out  the over heating of Trans is caused  by the shutters not opening until 215*F WT on the FWY and without the covers the WT almost never gets that High. With the covers on you can get the WT above 215*F for the shutters to open allowing air to go through Trans Fluid Cooler.  It is somewhat a balancing  act trying to keep WT above 215*F and allowing some air to go through the Trans Cooler. I have removed lower Grill Cover and TFT kept going up because the WT couldn't get high enough!  Air also circulates through top grill down ICE compartment and out bottom ICE cover for some cooling of ICE compartment components including Trans.

 

From what I've seen, about 10 Trans failures, I have the highest mileage CMAX/FFH(98mi.) to fail and the only one with Grill Covers on, which would imply the Grill Covers made my Trans last longer.  BTW if your Trans stats to make noise, it is to late to do anything about it, it's already failed.  Your warranty issues aren't relevant  to this thread. :)

 

Paul

[cheezy]

Obviously you still haven't read the thread very well or otherwise you would know that we fixed the ScanGaugeII code so it reads the right temperture.  Also the Trans heater was a Wolverine M-9 125watt/120vac stick on to the bottom of Trans which Rich FORD removed when they replaced the Trans.  BTW Trans is made of Aluminum, transfers heat very well and 125Watt heater would only raise temp by no more than 20*F by itself, no cooking involved here. :stirpot:

BTW my FORD Dealer didn't think it was necessary to check the fluid if it wasn't leaking. 

 

You also missed the part where :detective:  I figured out  the over heating of Trans is caused  by the shutters not opening until 215*F WT on the FWY and without the covers the WT almost never gets that High. With the covers on you can get the WT above 215*F for the shutters to open allowing air to go through Trans Fluid Cooler.  It is somewhat a balancing  act trying to keep WT above 215*F and allowing some air to go through the Trans Cooler. I have removed lower Grill Cover and TFT kept going up because the WT couldn't get high enough!  Air also circulates through top grill down ICE compartment and out bottom ICE cover for some cooling of ICE compartment components including Trans.

 

From what I've seen, about 10 Trans failures, I have the highest mileage CMAX/FFH(98mi.) to fail and the only one with Grill Covers on, which would imply the Grill Covers made my Trans last longer.  BTW if your Trans stats to make noise, it is to late to do anything about it, it's already failed.  Your warranty issues aren't relevant  to this thread. :)

 

Paul

 

 

No, I've read the thread and look at it in the light of a statement analysis, so let's start at the rear of your comments and go backwards:

 

a.) I don't have warranty issues, my trans. is NOT making noises, your alleged trans. failure notation = 1 failure. No internet hearsay.

 

b.) Trying to blame the trans. failure on Grill shutters not opening, when you have been running with grill blocks on, does what? I take it THAT is what you told the dealer in NM and they do NOT know about the grill blocks, correct? You've skirted THIS question several times now, so we can assume you have lied to FoMoCo. for free parts and labor.

 

c.) What YOU said is that YOU found it too difficult to check/change the fluid-and there was ZERO mention of an Advisor telling you to not do so. Anyway, that does not negate the actions which you did NOT take responsibility for. Plain and simple. Trans. was indicating a state of overheating on your gauge(s), you can audibly hear abnormal noises from trans., but you drive it anyway? Sure....

 

d.) A heater on an aluminum transmission case, heating away for hours in an enclosed garage, is what I have seen you write. IIRC your one notation is of 57 degrees F in the enclosed garage, that day in particular. I'll bet you have cooked the trans fluid yourself, between the heater, and the grill blocks you use. Period.

 

e.) I saw that the Dealer had an approximate 35% lower temp. read than your gauge, and you were working out some of the math differences in your incorrectly programmed reader. You then switch to a hand held infrared reader, IIRC. That means there were no "high temp." problems to begin with, and you actually created them in the chasing of none-solutions. Can you understand that? Occam's ...  

 

(8) pages and (5) months wasted when all you'd had to do was check/change the fluid, but no. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, unless you have another motive set, which is pretty obvious you do. How unfortunate for Ford.         

Edited July 15, 2015 by cheezy

[ls973800]

You've skirted THIS question several times now, so we can assume you have lied to FoMoCo. for free parts and labor.

 

You are not speaking for anyone else on this forum as far as I know, so don't say WE can assume.  You are the only one that seems to be disturbed by what he has posted.  If so, use the "I" word instead.

 

What YOU said is that YOU found it too difficult to check/change the fluid-and there was ZERO mention of an Advisor telling you to not do so.

 

If you take the time to read the owner's manual, it says that the fluid should be checked by a dealer ONLY!

 

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION

FLUID CHECK

If required, have an authorized dealer check

and change the transmission fluid at the

correct service interval. See

Scheduled

Maintenance

(page

420

).

The automatic transmission does not have

a transmission fluid dipstick. Your

transmission does not consume fluid.

An authorized dealer should check the

fluid:

•

If the transmission is not working

properly.

•

If you notice signs of fluid leakage

 

If the OP really had lied and did so to get warranty work and parts and labor done for free, why in the world would he come on a public forum and brag about doing such a thing? Surly he would know that there might be a mis-content or two out there who would try to drag his feet through the fire. I don't think he lied about anything and am glad that Ford covered his transmission failure. 

 

Not sure why you are taking such a personal interest in his transmission problems, and how he has tried to correct the fluid temperature.  You have stated your concerns several times, but will not let it go.  This is the first comment I have made about your antagonistic posts on this topic, and hope that you can get over it and move on.  Your posts here are starting to remind me of this.

 

http://i.imgur.com/IwK5sDa.gif

[Adrian_L]

I'm just going to put this out there, because I'm getting such a deja vu feeling.

 

Cheezy, are you Dr. Diesel back from the dead?  

 

I just can't imagine any newbie to the forum being so beligerant after being around for what, 3 days?

[obob]

I'm just going to put this out there, because I'm getting such a deja vu feeling.

 

Cheezy, are you Dr. Diesel back from the dead?  

 

I just can't imagine any newbie to the forum being so beligerant after being around for what, 3 days?

 

Dr Diesel had ideas on why the transmissions were failing (pump), recognizing the severity of the design problem which was fixed midstream 2013 and traded his 2013 for something like a 2014 energi, so I don't think they are the same.

[ptjones]

After taking measurements with IR Digital Thermometer I noticed the ICE block was about 10*F warmer than the Transmission(182 vs 172*F) after driving about an half an hour or so.

Now i'm thinking that significant  amont of the heat in the Trans is coming from the ICE and this is why it takes at least an half an hour or more to get to a stable temp.  This makes for curious dilemma when you have to get the ICE upto 215*F for the shutters to open to allow air to pass Trans Cooler.  The way it works out is that the Trans is cooling the ICE. ;)  

 

Paul  

[ptjones]

l think it is time to consolidate all the info we know at this point about Transmission Failures.

 

1. The only info we have from FORD is that the Trans puts out a Code at 301*F.

2.Trans Fluid Link  www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/main/additionalinfo/Product%20Data%20Sheet%20MERCON%20V.pdf

3. Trans longevity vs Fluid temp: http://www.txchange.com/heatchrt.htm.

4. My Trans Failed at 98Kmi and I had 82% HWY driving.

5. My Trans Fluid was darker than normal and smelled burn.

6. It would appear that I had the highest mileage and the only one with Grill Covers on.

7. Most failures occur with high percentage HWY driving CMAX's/FFH.

8. Trans has cooler behind lower grill and shutters.

9. Shutters don't open at HWY speeds until WT reaches 215*F and this may never happen without Grill Covers. So Trans Cooler gets very little air through it to cool Trans.

10. Shutters do open and fan turns on when A/C is turned on.

11. the highest temp I saw with my old Trans was 199*F, with new one 193*F.

​12. It would appear that heat is being transferred from ICE to Trans.

13. Trans TFT is effected by outside temps. 

I will add more as I think of them. :) 

 

Paul

 

 

Edited July 27, 2015 by ptjones

[wab]

l think it is time to consolidate all the info we know at this point about Transmission Failures.

 

1. The only info we have from FORD is that the Trans puts out a Code at 301*F.

2. Trans Fluid Specs:   

3. Trans longevity vs Fluid temp: http://www.txchange.com/heatchrt.htm.

4. My Trans Failed at 98Kmi and I had 82% HWY driving.

5. My Trans Fluid was darker than normal and smelled burn.

6. It would appear that I had the highest mileage and the only one with Grill Covers on.

7. Most failures occur with high percentage HWY driving CMAX's/FFH.

8. Trans has cooler behind lower grill and shutters.

9. Shutters don't open at HWY speeds until WT reaches 215*F and this may never happen without Grill Covers. So Trans Cooler gets very little air through it to cool Trans.

10. Shutters do open and fan turns on when A/C is turned on.

11. the highest temp I saw with my old Trans was 199*F, with new one 193*F.

​12. It would appear that heat is being transferred from ICE to Trans.

 

I will add more as I think of them. :) 

 

Paul

13. Trans TFT is effected by outside temps. 

 

 

 

We're almost @ 50K miles like you most are highway miles, most @ 75+ mph.

 

I'm going to go with

 

# 6 we have NO covers ;) and

 

# 10 in TX and New Mexico our AC is almost always on :)

 

[ptjones]

 

 

We're almost @ 50K miles like you most are highway miles, most @ 75+ mph.

 

I'm going to go with

 

# 6 we have NO covers ;) and

 

# 10 in TX and New Mexico our AC is almost always on :)

 

WOW, a real MPG's killer. LOL Can you monitor your TFT? ;)

 

Paul

[wab]

WOW, a real MPG's killer. LOL Can you monitor your TFT? ;)

 

Paul

 

We were in the 20's one tank in S TX on state highway 130, running over 90 on a 85 mph toll rd. with a very high headwind.

 

I'll try to take some temperatures in a few weeks, we'll be bringing the granddaughter back from CO. I set the eco-cruse @ a gps indicated 79 mph.

 

79 mph turns our 11 PLUS hour commute to S central CO. into a 10ish hour trip.

 

Edited July 23, 2015 by wab

[SPL Tech]

If high TFT is such an issue, why dont you skip this angle aluminum heatsink nonsense, which will have no real effect anyway, and just add an auxiliary transmission cooler such as the ones installed on trucks? They are not that hard to install and they are by far the most effective way to reduce tranny temps.

Edited August 14, 2015 by SPL Tech

[plus 3 golfer]

We were in the 20's one tank in S TX on state highway 130, running over 90 on a 85 mph toll rd. with a very high headwind.

 

I'll try to take some temperatures in a few weeks, we'll be bringing the granddaughter back from CO. I set the eco-cruse @ a gps indicated 79 mph.

 

79 mph turns our 11 PLUS hour commute to S central CO. into a 10ish hour trip.

 

The only way to travel. ;)  :)   I can relate to this on our 30+ hour trips back East.

 

I was in the low 30's mpg on I-20 in SW TX about a month ago with cruise set at about 83-85 mph (GPS speed not VSS which was lower and not speedometer which was higher) into a quartering wind.   As I've said before TFT stays about 30+F below ECT which ran between about 185F - 190F.  TFT generally runs between 155F -165F.  

 

Here's a link to a thread I posted before and the graph of about one hour of data.  The higher speed driving starts at about minute 35,  The grille shutters appear to be doing the job of keeping TFT and ECT within normal operating ranges.  Even as temperatures climbed to over 100 F (not recorded below), grille shutter opening never got above about 60%.

 

[ptjones]

I still need to video the shutter operations vs WT and speed. ;)

 

If high TFT is such an issue, why dont you skip this angle aluminum heatsink nonsense, which will have no real effect anyway, and just add an auxiliary transmission cooler such as the ones installed on trucks? They are not that hard to install and they are by far the most effective way to reduce tranny temps.

It looks like aluminum heat sinks have lowered my TFT by 5*F anyways so the highest temps I'm seeing are high 180's, which isn't bad and when I get a chance I'll put in synthetic Trans Fluid. to add more protection.   hybridbear  has an Energi Fusion that the Trans Pump runs all the time and he has seen TFT of 220*F ;) 

 

Paul 

[Bill-N]

I still need to video the shutter operations vs WT and speed. ;)

 

It looks like aluminum heat sinks have lowered my TFT by 5*F anyways so the highest temps I'm seeing are high 180's, which isn't bad and when I get a chance I'll put in synthetic Trans Fluid. to add more protection.   hybridbear  has an Energi Fusion that the Trans Pump runs all the time and he has seen TFT of 220*F ;)

 

Paul 

 

Does the Energi have a separate transmission cooler in addition to the pump?  Just curious.

[ptjones]

Does the Energi have a separate transmission cooler in addition to the pump?  Just curious.

Both NRG and Hybrid have same Trans Cooler, but NRG has external electric pump that runs all the timeand Hybrid has internal pump driven by ICE.so it only pumps when ICE is on. :)

 

Paul

[SPL Tech]

How do we know the stock fluid is not synthetic? I cant believe Ford would not use synthetic at OEM--what cheap asses. Just about every manufactruer out there uses snythetic everything on all vehicles for all fluids. I find it REALLY hard to believe standard ATF will last 150,000 miles. If you look at the change intervals for just about any vehicle with a standard auto transmission and standard fluid, it's almost always 50k or 60k. So why 150k if using the same crappy fluid?

Edited August 15, 2015 by SPL Tech

[ptjones]

Our Trans uses MERCON LV Fluid which isn't Synthetic Oil. :)

 

Paul

[SPL Tech]

Our Trans uses MERCON LV Fluid which isn't Synthetic Oil. :)

 

Paul

I am aware ATF is not the same as engine oil. However, synthetic MERCON LV exists. What I am asking is if Ford uses it and if not, why not? Synthetic everything is standard for everyone nowadays.

[hybridbear]

hybridbear  has an Energi Fusion that the Trans Pump runs all the time and he has seen TFT of 220*F 

This is not normal. We normally see TFT in the 160-175 range on long highway trips. The 220 F TFT was when descending the mountains down toward Phoenix. Regen seems to cause the temps of the hybrid components to rise more than any other activity (which isn't surprising). In the hybrid you probably wouldn't see such an increase because you get less regen. We were able to regen about 3.5 kWh of electricity into the pack of our Energi. Once we got back on flat ground the TFT dropped back to the 160-175 F range fairly quickly.

[plus 3 golfer]

This is not normal. We normally see TFT in the 160-175 range on long highway trips. The 220 F TFT was when descending the mountains down toward Phoenix. Regen seems to cause the temps of the hybrid components to rise more than any other activity (which isn't surprising). In the hybrid you probably wouldn't see such an increase because you get less regen. We were able to regen about 3.5 kWh of electricity into the pack of our Energi. Once we got back on flat ground the TFT dropped back to the 160-175 F range fairly quickly.

Virtually, what I see in my Hybrid.

 

The highest TFT I recall seeing was 176 F when ECT was 208 F IIRC. This was seen when going down hill in our Hybrid during regeneration.  Since ICE is not running and there is no auxiliary pump on the Hybrid, motor (MG1) losses likely quickly heat the TFT as there is no forced re-circulation of the TF.  I assume that the regen energy I captured was likely less than 1/10 of the 3.5 kWh you captured,   The heating of my TFT due to regen ceased quickly and hence TFT temperature rise leveled off.  Like you, once I reached flatter terrain, TFT and ECT quickly dropped.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Bill-N]

I presumed grade assist was to "assist" with braking.  Now I'm wondering if transmission lubrication (engine turning thus transmission oil pump pumping) might also be a reason.

 

From the Owner's Manual, 3rd printing, re. grade assist:

 

• Provides additional grade braking with a combination of engine

motoring and high-voltage battery charging to help maintain vehicle

speed when descending a grade.

[ptjones]

 

I presumed grade assist was to "assist" with braking.  Now I'm wondering if transmission lubrication (engine turning thus transmission oil pump pumping) might also be a reason.

 

From the Owner's Manual, 3rd printing, re. grade assist:

 

• Provides additional grade braking with a combination of engine

motoring and high-voltage battery charging to help maintain vehicle

speed when descending a grade.

 

If the ICE is turning over, the Trans Pump would also be working.

 

I am aware ATF is not the same as engine oil. However, synthetic MERCON LV exists. What I am asking is if Ford uses it and if not, why not? Synthetic everything is standard for everyone nowadays.

I didn't find MotorCraft synthetic MERCON LV fluid.  I have Valvoline Synthetic MAX LIFE MERCON LV Trans Fluid and there are several other oil companies that also have it.    

 

It is beginning to look like heat is being transferred from ICE to Trans so that the higher the ICE Temp, the higher Trans Temp.  On the FWY I try to get WT above 215*F so shutters will open allowing cooler air to go through Tans Cooler and then cooling TFT down.  This may also be making the Trans to get hotter before shutters open.  It seems most Posters aren't getting WT up to 202*F which means they aren't getting max MPG's.  :)

 

Paul

Edited August 16, 2015 by ptjones

[plus 3 golfer]

 

I presumed grade assist was to "assist" with braking.  Now I'm wondering if transmission lubrication (engine turning thus transmission oil pump pumping) might also be a reason.

 

From the Owner's Manual, 3rd printing, re. grade assist:

 

• Provides additional grade braking with a combination of engine

motoring and high-voltage battery charging to help maintain vehicle

speed when descending a grade.

 

Good point.  

 

Most of the time when I use grade assist, regen increases but ICE does not turn. If the battery is not "full", it takes a fairly steep slope and lower speeds for engine braking along with regen so speed does not increase.   When the battery is "full", engine braking is virtually full time as there is no other way but friction brakes to control speed.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[SPL Tech]

I find the grade assist doesesnt work that well. Often times it wont do anything whatsoever when traveling down an extremely steep hill, and it will run the engine at nearly redline when traveling down a shallower hill. I think it's programed poorly. Both of our CMAXes do it.