Green Car Reports C-Max not living up to EPA figures

[Laurel]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080580_ford-hybrids-fuel-economy-failing-to-live-up-to-epa-ratings

[BobJustBob]

Hi Laurel,

 

Thank you for posting this. I know from watching the news over the last several years that there are a number of hybrids which have failed to live up to their EPA mileage. I just took delivery of my new C-Max today (11/20), so it is far too early to tell what kind of mileage I will achieve. If I get 40 mpg or higher, I will be happy; if I get less than 40, I will be very disappointed.

[Laurel]

I have been thinking about the varying mileage that new C-Max owners are attaining. I think when the engineers of the C-Max say that perhaps the extra power in the C-Max is encouraging heavy feet--that they are correct. I am old enough to have observed mega changes in driving habits over the past 20 years. The majority of drivers are driving mechanically and are doing exactly what other drivers are doing i.e. speeding to keep up with traffic flow, quick starts at traffic lights to not piss off people behind them, fast abrupt stops at traffic lights because of talking on the phone or fiddling with radios or navigation etc. There is less police enforcement of traffic offenses now due to the cost of hiring officers. So I think that we have become poor drivers over the last generation and don't even know how poor our habits have become. The folks that are getting good mileage are likely the portion of the population that are the thoughtful law abiding personalities. The ones getting poor mileage are the ones with years of poor driving habits engrained and to get good mileage it will take a total make over of driving habits. I don't have my C-Max yet --but I probably am a mix of both types so it will be a learning curve for me for sure.

 

Just wanted to add that I noticed some of these things when I bought my Smart Car. It has technology on the dash so you can watch instant gas consumption. The Smart Car has a weird shifting mechanism in that it is an automatic, but to shift smoothly you have to drive it like a standard transmission and let off on the gas pedal as it shifts up. After I bought it and I would drive away from a traffic light letting it do that smooth shifting which means you don't rocket off from a stand still. It was scary as drivers would assume that I would take off fast instead of in that shifting mode, and they would be right up on my bumper--very impatient to the point of almost rear ending me. So in rush hour I would just floor it like the rest of the folks, and while flooring it could watch the fuel consumption go from say 5 L per 100 kilometers to 14-16 L per 100 kilometers. So in conclusion, for hybrid drivers to drive sensibility it will take nerves of steel LOL.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Laurel

[nsteblay]

I've come to the conclusion that to achieve EPA requires implementing certain driving techniques.

 

I started using the Pulse and Glide technique recommended by hypermilers. In my trips yesterday I was averaging over 50 MPG. Instead of accelerating slowly to my desired speed I "Pulse" to get there quickly, let off the gas so that EV mode kicks in, resume pressing the accelerator but do it lightly not to kick in the gas engine again and Glide. I am able to spend much more time in EV mode this way and my mileage skyrocketed.

 

The other advantage about the approach is I didn't have people on my tail when accelerating from a slowdown or stop. The CVT actually allows for decent acceleration.

 

The C-Max is ideal for this approach - I think was designed with P&G in mind. The dashboard gauges make moving from gas to EV mode very easy. I found after doing for a while it became second nature.

 

Here is an article that was posted on the forum. It describes the EPA test in details and the foibles of it. It also describes the hypermiling techniques.

 

http://www.cleanmpg....read.php?t=1510

 

Here is my post where i describe my experience in more detail.

 

http://fordcmaxhybri...-regarding-mpg/

 

Nick

[BobJustBob]

Nick:

 

Thank you so much for posting this. This is exactly the reason I signed-up for this forum--to take advantage of the insights of other C-Max owners so I can maximize my enjoyment and, gas mileage, of this great little vehicle.

[Chinto]

I found the driving coach to be helpful. By watching the

Gauge for braking accellerating and cruising I come to learn how the C Max performs the best and my mileage began to show it. So I learned if I drove it like a Rousch Mustang on track day my MPG suffered. Set your my gauge on driving coach for a while and drive it to maintain all 3 bars at 100% and you will have mileage gains. I sure did.

[ScooterS]

Great Posts and Thread!

[CNCGeek]

The EPA test just does not cut it with hybrids since the Prius has spoiled everyone with it's as good or better than EPA fuel economy. People don't think much when a non-hybrid cannot attain it's EPA fuel economy rating in the real world, but mpg is the HP/0-60/quarter mile yardstick for hybrids, and it has to attainable in the real world to stack up to the Prius. Since Ford targeted the Prius, I don't buy their explaination for the poorer than advertised real world fuel economy in the article - which is very un-Prius like. Right now they can get away with blaming drivers, but as the data stacks up, I don't think that will be realistic.

 

That said, I would have still bought it if they advertised 42mpg, since that is really good fuel economy, and the C-max works better for me than the Prius or V. 42-43mpg is really just 2 more fill ups every 10k miles anyway, which is 2 more than I should have to, but not huge deal. I am going to try the technique that Nick suggested which will hopefully bring things up a bit (it is close to how I normally drive though so I'm not expecting much).

Edited November 22, 2012 by CNCGeek

[salprint]

Like others have said...you need to change your driving technique. I have been averaging 47+ in over 1500 miles. So the vehicle can live up to those specs....its according to whos driving it and how they are driving it.

[stranger267]

I've come to the conclusion that to achieve EPA requires implementing certain driving techniques.

 

This is impossible. It may explain SOME difference in city mileage. But freeway mileage is simple thing - set up cruise (in ECO mode) and drive 30 - 40 minutes. The only habit which can influence is the speed, and we know for sure that if we have 35 mpg on 75 mph then we can expect maybe 38 on 55 mph, not more...

 

So it CAN NOT explain, why some people reports 44 - 46 mpg while others reports 33 - 36. The ONLY explanation whuch I have is that something is DIFFERENT in the cars (not sure what, but there are many options; looks as early CMAXes show mpg near EPA and new ones shows 10 mpg less, all consistant!). Mpg results, yes, depends of the driving habits in city ; but they do not depends on then on freeway except in heavy traffic.

 

We should do simple test. Come to dealeship and look onto Live MPG on different cars in stock (they usually have 10 - 50 miles driven) and see how different are they. I can't explain why new car had 25 mpg indicated on dealership with 60 miles driven - test drives are relatively good by the route and it should have 35 - 40 mpg if it reach 47 eventually. For my car it had 27 initially and have 35 now and this 35 is not going to improive much. If I drive exceptionally slow on freeway, it can show 36, but never 40+.

 

If FORD did not make huge fraud by creating false numbers for EPA (and I don't think so, as some reports are in 43 - 45 range so SOME cars make EPA numbers), then the only explanation can be that today-s CMAX is different from tested one. /For example, they replaced low drag tires to the stock ones, started to use mineral oil instead of synthetic, issue new software release... you add your version easily./

 

If anyone can make such test - find someone with really GOOD report and someone with really BAD report, and ask them to drive each other-s car, and compare... it may provide an answer. For now, it is total mystery, I never saw anything like this. For example, VW TDI shows exactly what is posted and it does not depends on your driving; Prius shows what is posted and depend on driving slightly only; Subaru Impreza CVT shows better then posted, and so on...

Edited November 24, 2012 by stranger267

[valkraider]

For now, it is total mystery, I never saw anything like this. For example, VW TDI shows exactly what is posted and it does not depends on your driving;

 

Our 2003 TDI New Beetle and our 2009 TDI Jetta both are drastically affected by our driving style. I could range from 30 to 50 mpg on the highway - mostly dependent on speed and time of year. Winter fuel economy was way worse than other times of year due to winterized fuel and rougher weather. Our city economy would also fluctuate drastically. Accelerate fast and fuel economy dropped quick. Heck, our fuel economy would drop 1 or 2 mpg if we were running heated seats on high...

 

The reality is this:

 

The EPA tests do not reflect real world driving conditions. There are 1000 variables which can make a vehicle completely different in the real world than it does in the EPA tests. Clearly, the Prius has it dialed in - to get a better match.

 

But the EPA test is tame. (I have posted about it in the fuel economy section of this board and on the energi board). The EPA highway test averages 48mph and peaks at 60mph. The EPA high speed test averages 48mph as well, and peaks at 80mph. Both run for like 10 miles only. And they are done on a dynometer, not on a real road. They are also done using 100% gasoline not E10 (E10 drops fuel economy 2% itself). The EPA tests are also done for fair weather conditions (It is winter in most of the country now when the C-Max models are starting to hit people's driveways). EPA tests also don't take into account heaters, entertainment units, or lights.

 

Since we are seeing huge swings in economy - my guess is that C-Max has way more variability in it's programmning than Prius. Prius may restrict driving behavior way more than C-Max, maybe Ford is letting people get more performance out of the car if they want to which quickly eats into economy...

 

Also, possibly we could start tracking trim levels. For example, what if the MyFord Touch system pulls more or less juice than the other options.

 

The C-Max probably needs to be driven differently than other vehicles. Figure out what the C-Max needs to get good numbers.

[CNCGeek]

Like others have said...you need to change your driving technique. I have been averaging 47+ in over 1500 miles. So the vehicle can live up to those specs....its according to whos driving it and how they are driving it.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience for balance, however as every driver is different, so will every driver's fuel economy. That said, my driving "technique" is going to be different from your technique, just like a fingerprint - no two are alike. Even if we did have the same technique, people carry different weights in their cars, have different roads, routes, different weather, etc. And that is assuming your C-max is identical to my C-max, and that there have been no "tweaks" done in the early production which may have changed the vehicle since the EPA tests were run. It is why they say "your mileage may vary". What I was trying to convey is that while given those variables, the Prius still seems to hold true to the EPA estimates, and will be a tough target for Ford to hit with the C-max. Since Ford targeted a vehicle which is well known for it's real world fuel economy (which is obviously more important than the EPA estimates), their explanation of blaming drivers for the poorer than expected economy only can go so far, and I don't feel it will be far enough when there is more real world data available (on fuelly for example). Additionally most people do not assume they will have to practice hypermiling techniques to get the rated fuel economy of a vehicle.

 

One other point which I did not make, but seems relevant, is that the green car report average was considerably lower than even most people report here, and they were driving vehicles provided by Ford for the reviews. Since they are the "green car" report I would guess that they have some idea on how to drive a hybrid, which makes their poorer fuel economy even more interesting. On the other hand, their second test, which they say was "mostly at freeway speeds" was not the optimal setting for any hybrid, so is was not a fair test in my opinion.

Edited November 24, 2012 by CNCGeek

[erwhitham]

A factor not addressed here is weather conditions, especially heater use , which always affected my mpg with my Prius. On cold days with short drives, it was not unusual for me to get 27-29 mpg over most of the winter months. In spring without AC and on longer routes at 55mph I could be close to 47. However, averaging those conditions over a few months, I got used to less than thrilling mpgs. I was ok with this. Loved the Prius but was ready for a CMax with great options and a new style. The mileage I'm getting now is low 30's under similar driving conditions and heater use nearly every day lately. Because of a larger gas tank, I can get more miles before refilling.

[kechair]

Another weather factor is wind. Just read on another thread on this forum that someone posted low mileage despite hypermiling techniques due to 35 mph headwind - I thought that was a great point.

 

So as far as contributing factors to good/bad mileage, I have the following (incomplete) list - feel free to comment/contribute (or not), It's in no particular order - perhaps someone would like to rank order these based on significance:

 

* wind

* accessory usage (esp. heated seats, air conditioning/heater usage, charging cell phones in the car, etc.)

* type of gas (winter blend, octane used)

* outside temperature (affecting high voltage battery efficiency, etc.)

* personal driving style (lead foot/hypermiling)

* tire pressure (higher, more fuel efficient but poorer ride quality)

* weight (more passengers/cargo, more inertia and poorer fuel economy)

* road terrain (flat or hilly)

* traffic conditions - stop and go or free flow

* speed - highway/city mix

* EV utilization / hypermiling techniques used

[captaineddie]

Hilly/mountainous terrain makes a big difference in mileage. We're driving very sensibly and only getting in the low thirties.

[AgentCMAX]

 

So it CAN NOT explain, why some people reports 44 - 46 mpg while others reports 33 - 36.

 

My C-Max has around 800 miles so far and I have been getting ~55mpg on my way to work (55% city at speed of 35-50mph and hwy driving speed of 55-65mph for a distance of 25 miles). On the way back from work, I take a different route that gives me ~45mpg and I think it is slightly more hwy. What I noticed (and to address your comment quoted above) is the terrain itself makes a big impact on gas mileage. So that is another factor that may cause varying mpg results...and this is from the same car on different section of the same hwy.

Edited November 28, 2012 by AgentCMAX