12 v battery charging

[cmax-nynj]

My battery was replaced once.  It doesn't make a difference since the 12V draining is random.

[jestevens]

Sorry, that sucks, I was hoping that they had finally worked out the problem for the SE's..

[Dave Hill]

The topic is 12V battery so here is my battery experience.

Every year we go to Florida for 2 months. we have done this twice since we bought our 2015 C-MAX SEL Hybrid. We leave the max at home.

This year when we came home I could not start the car.  My immediate suspicion was the fob. I found the emergency key in the fob but could not get to the battery.

Took it to the Ford dealer and they managed to change the fob battery after much difficulty. The car would not start. I tried all the little tricks with the fob on the steering column but no luck.

Finally decided to jump it from my other car. Very simple process but I drove it a little bit to make sure it was charged. Have had no trouble since but I am curious.

Are you saying that once I have jumped the car and started it, there is no need to run it at all? How long does it take the HV battery to charge the 12V?

Why is there no information on battery maintenance in the manual? At least not any that I have found.

Does it need water? Does it even use water and how does one get into it if they want to actually see the 12V battery.

And one more thing, why is there not a simple switch that will start the car from the HV battery if the 12V is dead. I had that on a 2005 RV that I owned. If the chassis battery would not start the engine, you just pushed the ACC (house) bat switch and it never failed.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Dave Hill

[plus 3 golfer]

The topic is 12V battery so here is my battery experience.

Every year we go to Florida for 2 months. we have done this twice since we bought our 2015 C-MAX SEL Hybrid. We leave the max at home.

This year when we came home I could not start the car.  My immediate suspicion was the fob. I found the emergency key in the fob but could not get to the battery.

Took it to the Ford dealer and they managed to change the fob battery after much difficulty. The car would not start. I tried all the little tricks with the fob on the steering column but no luck.

Finally decided to jump it from my other car. Very simple process but I drove it a little bit to make sure it was charged. Have had no trouble since but I am curious.

1) Are you saying that once I have jumped the car and started it, there is no need to run it at all? 2) How long does it take the HV battery to charge the 12V?

3)Why is there no information on battery maintenance in the manual? At least not any that I have found.

4)Does it need water? 5)Does it even use water and how does one get into it if they want to actually see the 12V battery.

And one more thing, 6) why is there not a simple switch that will start the car from the HV battery if the 12V is dead. I had that on a 2005 RV that I owned. If the chassis battery would not start the engine, you just pushed the ACC (house) bat switch and it never failed.

1) The battery needs to be charged somewhat by leaving the car on or via a smart battery charger to ensure it will start later.

 

2) When my 12 V battery was failing, I've charged my 12V battery twice with a charger and it took overnight to fully charge (say 8 hours).  Please read the discussion in this thread http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/6770-how-long-did-your-original-c-max-battery-last/ on SOC of the 12 V battery.  It seems that to reach 100% SOC by driving or leaving car on is as long and maybe more than using a battery charger. 

 

3) The battery requires no maintenance.

 

4) The battery is sealed.

 

5) The battery is in the rear hatch area underneath the floor on the back right side.  Lift up the rear lid to the small storage compartment in the rear and remove the small rubber mat and hardboard cover to expose about 1/4 of the battery.  Removing the battery requires removing the rear floor cover.

 

6) The HVB systems require that the control modules be operational in order to power up and connect the HVB to DC/DC converter.  The DC/DC converter takes the High Voltage and steps it down to 12 V.  A simple switch would need to be wired to a dedicated number of Li-Ion cells to powerup the modules such that the HVB could then be used via the DC/DC converter to run the 12V system.  It's another level of complexity with likley safety concerns ($$).  Just buy a jump start which would be your auxiliary battery.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Louder North]

My battery was replaced once.  It doesn't make a difference since the 12V draining is random.

 

We just had the 12v battery replaced by Ford recently in our 2013.  Then, randomly, we noticed the radio would not turn on.  After parking it for a few days, it wouldn't unlock/open with the fob (first clue that the battery is dead - now wondering if the radio not turning on was the hint of a random electrical drain). Opened the door with the metal key in the fob, opened the hood, and checked the voltage with my meter.  Only 12.1 v (should be at least 12.6 -12.8 v).  Hooked up the posts to my battery charger and left it that way for 5 hours (6 A charge).  All good since then but will be checking voltage with my meter periodically. 

[SnowStorm]

12.1 volts is plenty of voltage.  You don't need a fully charged battery at 12.6 to 12.8 volts.  In fact, the car should "start" with a "discharged" 12 volt battery at 10.5 volts.  Your FOB battery may be the one that is dying.  My radio has also died (was intermittent for a while) but I'm having no battery trouble.

[cmax-nynj]

We all have been dealing with this since the car came out.  Just buy a portable jump starter and pray that Ford comes up with a solution.  Getting a new battery wouldn't help with the issue, the car would still randomly not start.  My frequency is about 5x a year and I'm on the second 12V battery since 2014.  In my case it doesn't seem to have anything to do with outside temp. My car would start in sub-zero weather but on a warmer day it may fail.

Edited March 14, 2018 by cmax-nynj

[ptjones]

It is interesting that I've never had this problem in 5 and half years. :headscratch:

 

Paul

[homestead]

It is interesting that I've never had this problem in 5 and half years. :headscratch:

 

Paul

 

Same here no dead batteries in 5 years.  I think this problem was more common on SE cars.  Something discharging the battery after shutdown but very difficult to troubleshoot.  There was a TSB on it a couple years ago make sure the dealer checks all the trouble spots on that document.

[Louder North]

12.1 volts is plenty of voltage.  You don't need a fully charged battery at 12.6 to 12.8 volts.  In fact, the car should "start" with a "discharged" 12 volt battery at 10.5 volts.  Your FOB battery may be the one that is dying.  My radio has also died (was intermittent for a while) but I'm having no battery trouble.

 

Yes, normally 12.1 v should be plenty, but it wasn't in my case. After opening the car with the metal key, there was no display, nothing on the dash. 

FOB battery is 6 months old. It's weird.  After charging the battery again, the radio started working again as normal.

[plus 3 golfer]

I posted the following in a prior thread:  

 

Below is an excerpt from the service manual.  When the car is on, alarms (DTCs) aren't triggered until the voltage falls below 11.5 V and the converter will continue to supply power down to 8 V.   But we still don't know the minimum voltage needed start the car.  The answer might be the minimum voltage spec. for closing the relay that connects the HVB to the car. A quick search of HV, 12 V relays shows that the minimum operating voltage might be around 75% of rated voltage or 9 V.

[Bill-N]

Just another data point:  my cigarette lighter voltmeter showed 11.1V yesterday when I started the car.  I leave the voltmeter plugged in all the time with no issues.

 

Note the car was unlocked and in the garage, so this says nothing about minimum voltage needed to unlock.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Bill-N

[cmax-nynj]

Mine also showed 11.1V before I started it today.  I don't think it needs 12V+ to start the car.

[joe]

For the first five years, I never had any problems with the 12v battery.  Last year, I replaced the 12 v because in my previous cars, the battery would die around 5 years.  In January, I came out and the car was dead.  I used my small portable lithium battery to jump start the car (from under the hood).  Took less than a minute to hook up and start.  The battery worked until two weeks ago when it died again.  Jump started the car and went to Ford, and they said the battery was defective and replaced it under the warranty. 

 

I'm beginning to believe that our problems are with the 12v battery, not the car.  It reminds me of an experience 30 years ago when a fleet of Dodge vans had problems with drag links failing.  Dodge said there was no problem with the drag links, but their parts department always had plenty of drag links in stock, which seemed unusual because drag links shouldn't fail so why did they have so many in the parts department?

 

UPDATE:  The battery that I got in March failed early June.  Dealer replaced at no cost under warranty.

Edited June 14, 2018 by joe

[veggirl57]

New to any car with so many bells and whistles. Have a 2013 CMax hybrid with 42000 miles on it. Dead battery after sitting for 13 hours after I finished work. Have an appointment with dealer in July to run diagnostics. I can’t deal with worrying I’m going to have a dead battery at any time. So questions:

 

1. What’s the quickest way to get this car running without jumper cables?

2. What’s the best way to check the battery to see if it’s low?

3. I hate not having a spare, used that stupid kit in a panic....how do I get the kit replaced and what do ppl do if they get a flat?

4. The vinyl/plastic black cover that’s on the underside of the car at the front fell Dow, dragged and is now shredded. How do I get it replaced without spending a fortune?

5. Any suggestions for how to get the windshield wiper dispenser to get enough ‘umph” to actually put fluid on the windshield?

 

Am trying to figure out ways to live with this car which I purchased Dec. 2017 and not spend a fortune as it looks like the only way things can get fixed is by the deal which means MONEY.

[obob]

New to any car with so many bells and whistles. Have a 2013 CMax hybrid with 42000 miles on it. Dead battery after sitting for 13 hours after I finished work. Have an appointment with dealer in July to run diagnostics. I can’t deal with worrying I’m going to have a dead battery at any time. So questions:

 

1. What’s the quickest way to get this car running without jumper cables?

2. What’s the best way to check the battery to see if it’s low?

3. I hate not having a spare, used that stupid kit in a panic....how do I get the kit replaced and what do ppl do if they get a flat?

4. The vinyl/plastic black cover that’s on the underside of the car at the front fell Dow, dragged and is now shredded. How do I get it replaced without spending a fortune?

5. Any suggestions for how to get the windshield wiper dispenser to get enough ‘umph” to actually put fluid on the windshield?

 

Am trying to figure out ways to live with this car which I purchased Dec. 2017 and not spend a fortune as it looks like the only way things can get fixed is by the deal which means MONEY.

 

A lot of people with 2013s have needed to replace batteries.  I will probably replace mine before the winter.  

 

I carry one of those small jumpers in the call.  They work well for me.  There is not a way to start it without jumping it like pushing a stick shift and popping the clutch.

 

Google "fordcmaxhybridforum.com spare tire"  lot of discussion from people that have obtained a spare for the C-Max

 

Just a thought, does the washer fluid need to be filled ?  I don't recall much discussion about windshield washer weakness. 

[cr08]

1) Look into getting a lithium based jump pack. They are compact and very portable and will often double as a USB power bank as well. These cars don't need much to jump start them so these will be a safe and convenient option for emergencies. Mine fits nicely in the little compartment under the passenger seat in the back.

2) Not sure if there's a super easy way to check. The only foolproof way I can think of is opening the hood and closing all other doors and let the car sit for about half an hour so everything shuts back off. Then use a voltmeter or multimeter to check the voltage at the jump terminal under the hood and see what it reads. You could also turn on the radio while the car is off and see how long it takes to turn itself off. Normally it does so after 10-15 minutes with a good battery. If the battery has aged or degraded it should turn off sooner. That may also give you a rough guess. I don't know if the factory batteries have any dates marked on them but if you can get to the battery in the back and see if it has a date marked anywhere to get an idea of how old it is that'd be a good thing to check. Overall if the battery is old it may simply need to be changed anyways. For a 2013 if you are lucky enough to still have the factory battery you are definitely overdue. One of the unfortunate side effects of these vehicles is you can no longer gauge battery health by engine cranking speed. They either start or they don't.

3) You can order a replacement canister from the dealer. I think it's no more than $20-$30 in most cases. If you are more mechanically inclined I'd probably go a step above and keep a patch kit in the car as well. Some people have also bought spares from other vehicles with the same wheel/tire size to keep around. I don't know details off the top of my head but shouldn't be too hard to search for in this forum.

4) I always recommend for replacement parts that aren't normal wear and tear to dig through parts.ford.com. You can either order direct and have it delivered to your local dealer for free and pick it up at the parts counter or at the very least it'll get you a part number you can then use to shop around like on eBay. Worst case you can just tear it off and leave it as is. I imagine it is just there for aerodynamics more than anything.

5) Never had an issue with mine personally. I get good coverage on the front windshield. If it is seriously degraded you could possibly have a blockage and/or may want to verify the fluid is topped off.

 

Since you already have an appointment scheduled I'd keep on that. They'll probably check some of the basics I mentioned such as the battery age and health and may recommend a replacement anyways. There may also be some outstanding TSB's related to battery drain especially for a 2013 model that they could look into and make sure are applied.

[plus 3 golfer]

1) A jump start battery like this.  Others can tell you what they purchased. I carry jumper cables.

 

2)  A $10 digital voltmeter / cigarette lighter plugin voltmeter to measure battery voltage (probably Walmart or Auto Store).

 

3) Unless it's a blowout, a tire plug kit works but is difficult to use especially the cheap ones on the road ($25-$30 for good one).  I carry this in my car.  I monitor tire pressure with FORScan (the smartphone APP and ELM 327) can be had for about $25.  When I notice a small drop in one tires pressure, I look for a nail or screw in the tire.  I have always been able to drive home or to a shop if on the road to repair the hole well before the tire goes flat. You need to catch the slow leak early on. 

 

4)  Probably not cheap.  Look on line for the belly cover.

 

5) Clean the nozzles with a straight pin or very thin needle.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[SnowStorm]

1 Jump pack as mentioned.  Posts are under the hood on the right.

 

2 Make sure car has had all the 12V battery related updates performed (various posts on this forum about them).  I hope the dealer can determine if there are any outstanding.  These updates appear to be the real solution to dead 12V batteries.  I don't think the radio shut off is a good test because it is based on time, not voltage (as I understand).  If you get a new battery, make sure the dealer properly resets the battery age value.  (You can read it with Forscan.)  Agree with getting a voltmeter.  Check it before you start the car.  If it is below 11 volts you may be having a problem.  Car will start at a much lower value but the battery shouldn't be getting run down that low sitting overnight.  I had maybe two dead batteries and the voltage was down around 4 volts!  No problem since the updates (and also a new battery).  As already mentioned, you can't tell how low the battery was from cranking the engine.  Turning ON the car causes the High Voltage Battery (HVB) to charge the 12V battery through the DC to DC converter and the HVB actually cranks the engine (when needed).  This is why the 12V battery can be below 100% discharged (10.5 volts) and the car will still start up just fine.  So, use the voltmeter to monitor how things are going.

 

3  Don't replace that stupid canister.  Just buy a separate can of tire goo that you can get anywhere cheap.  The compressor is nice but that built-in goo canister is an awful idea.  Set the switch wrong and you shoot goo into your tire by mistake (I speak from experience!).

 

4  Call some recycling yards.  I bought a full size wheel (for a spare tire) and a replacement tail light assembly from said yards and both were great - and much cheaper.

[jestevens]

If you still have the original 12V battery you probably want to replace it by now - after having to use the emergency key several times to open the door I had mine finally replaced last winter even though the dealer said it was "fine" - it was about $200 including labor at the dealer and it was worth it to me, vs. trying to replace it myself in 20F weather outside.  No more issues with getting locked out because the keyless entry didn't work, and I've never had an incident with the vehicle being completely dead other than that (I have SEL model).

 

Initially I did have a timing issue where I would go to put my foot on the brake a certain way when pressing the START button too quick or something and the vehicle would fail to start but I was always able to try to start again and it worked, a software update seemed to fix that problem too.

 

I ONLY take hybrids to the dealer, and if you're lucky you'll find a dealer shop that knows them well, this after I took my Prius to an independent garage who assured me they knew how to work on Prius but were perplexed that they couldn't find the battery under the hood to jump the car when it wouldn't start. 

Waay too many $3K computer modules to be shorting out the wrong one..

Edited June 22, 2018 by jestevens

[cmax-nynj]

I use an OBDII ELM327 device to monitor battery voltage while driving.  We have a relatively warm week and the Voltage with the car running is about 13.3V- 13.5V.  When it was cooler the voltage reading was about 14.3 - 14.5V.  What's happening?  Nothing seems to be wrong and no dead 12V battery for many months already

Edited June 22, 2018 by cmax-nynj

[stolenmoment]

For the washers, as Plus 3 Golfer says above, you can clean them with a straight pin.  I haven't looked at the CMax's, but I've found that if the nozzles are little balls with holes, you can also *aim* them when you've inserted those pins into the holes.

 

That said, my washers only get weak when the tank is about empty.

[cr08]

I use an OBDII ELM327 device to monitor battery voltage while driving.  We have a relatively warm week and the Voltage with the car running is about 13.3V- 13.5V.  When it was cooler the voltage reading was about 14.3 - 14.5V.  What's happening?  Nothing seems to be wrong and no dead 12V battery for many months already

It could be any combination of battery age, temp, cabin temp, etc.. Most cars these days will tailor the charging voltage to maximize the life of the battery. So if it is reading a bit above temp and the cabin temp is warmer than normal, it may lower the charging voltage. Even with a fairly aged/dead/dying battery, the charging system will still be able to maintain a 'normal' voltage of 13-15v. That's why you never see anyone recommend checking the battery voltage when the car is running because it is useless to do when trying to check the battery itself.

[plus 3 golfer]

I use an OBDII ELM327 device to monitor battery voltage while driving.  We have a relatively warm week and the Voltage with the car running is about 13.3V- 13.5V.  When it was cooler the voltage reading was about 14.3 - 14.5V.  What's happening?  Nothing seems to be wrong and no dead 12V battery for many months already

It would be interesting to see what the Battery Voltage Desired and the SOC of the 12 V battery are via ForScan In the BCM.  When I look at the DC/DC converter, the set point voltage (always same as desired) and the voltage at the DC converter, both are always in the 14.1 - 14.5 V range and generally the same value (although I don't monitor continually).  Also, I've never seen my 12V battery with a 100% SOC.  The highest I've seen was 92% after 2000 miles of driving in 2 days.

 

I went out and started my C-Max.  My current 12V battery SOC = 58%, ambient temp = 99F, desired was 14.2 V and BCM voltage was around 14.1+-.  The lowest voltage I saw on other modules was 13.85 V.  The PCM was at 14.0 V (probably module your reader read).   Although your 13.3 V seems low, it might not be if your SOC is very high as the BCM will likely lower the set point voltage as one nears 100% SOC.  The highest SOC I've seen was around 92%.  After shutting the car off, the BCM voltage dropped to 12.85 V. 

 

Can your ELM327 be used with FORScan (wifi, bluetooth, usb)? You can download demo version, IIRC, for androids, ios, and windows.

[cmax-nynj]

No, unfortunately mine is not compatible with Forscan and I need to find out which one of my TPMS sensors is giving faults