Battery; 2016 C-Max Hybrid

[Telerisk]

Is there away to Test the Health of the battery(s)?  2016 Ford C-Max; 5,500 Miles Purchase date 4/9/16

 

I am having concerns that the Batteries (Vehicle is NOT Plugin model....sure there is a better name)....seems battery is taking longer to charge and runs down more quickly.  I have actually been purposely driving it hard (keeping it out of EV) to get battery per symbol to get into the 80% range....but as I wrote, driving it normally to where EV is in use, Charge seem more quickly to get down into the 15% area.

 

Is there away to test the health of the battery(s)?  Can it be done by some method with car?  Only at dealership?  If battery(s) health was bad a Warning light would display on dashboard?   

[plus 3 golfer]

I assume you mean the High Voltage Battery.  Don't worry about the HVB health.  It should last the life of the car in the Hybrid C-Max.  You don't have to do anything special as the HVB is operated normally between about 40% State of Charge and 54% SOC.  The displayed battery symbol on the dash is not an accurate measurement of the actual SOC of the HVB.  Filling the battery symbol to the tip (appears to be 100% full) is acutally only about a 70% SOC. I've attached a conversion chart showing the actual SOC of the HVB with the displayed battery symbol. 

 

One only gets to the 70% SOC when going down long grades or braking from higher speeds.  The traction motor in the transmission simulates engine braking when coasting down hill by acting as a generator and using the kinetic energy to make electricity that is then sent to the HVB for storage.  Same thing happens when braking (non friction braking).  This is generally referred to as "regeneration" or "regenerative braking".  So, you should be able to get the symbol to approach the tip if slowing to a stop going down a longer hill.

 

As you can see from the chart, your 15% is actually about a 32% SOC and your 80% is actually about a 57% SOC -- pretty normal.  More than likely, the 15% is after running in EV+ mode and the 80% is when cruising at higher speed for a period of time on fairly flat roads or after regenerative braking.

 

There are many Diagnostic Trouble Codes for the HVB and hybrid operations.  Since, you have no DTCs, everything should be fine.  Has your fuel economy changed?  If your SOC seems to be declining more rapidly than before, perhaps you are making better use of the EV capability or you have more electrical load to supply like: running the A/C, seat heaters, and so forth.
 

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Telerisk]

Thank you.....

 

If, the health of the High Voltage battery(s) were to be getting bad, I would only know that if I Gas Mileage was decreasing?  Your detailed explanation educated me, this add'l question is....other than poor Gas Mileage, is there anything within the Vehicles computerized system that would display alerting me to get the battery(s) Checked?   The change that I have noticed is the symbol....as I wrote, it used to run lets say (using the symbol)  35% to 80% and now its normal is 15% to 60%.......

[plus 3 golfer]

One can record real time hybrid operating data with the FORScan App.  But without historical data to compare, it would be difficult to determine how any changes would affect operations.  One will lose HVB energy storage capacity over operating time / miles but I am not aware of anyone where such loss affected hybrid operation / fuel economy. 

 

Read this thread and follow the link to the INL test results of 4 C-Max hybrids.  Although the HVBs have lost some storage capacity.  FE appears to not be affected by the lost capacity.

 

Other than DTC and perhaps messages being displayed, I'm not aware of anything that you can readily look at with respect to the HVB health.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Telerisk]

"Other than DTC and perhaps messages being displayed, I'm not aware of anything that you can readily look at with respect to the HVB health."

 

This line caught my attention...and may be the answer I am looking for to settle my concerns regarding the battery(S). 

 

1) Do not know what DTC means?    

2) "Messages displayed".....An alert will display in the Instrument Panel if the Battery(s) need attention\not charging properly\defective?  It would make sense that such an alert would be programmed\designed into the electronics of thew C-Max given the Importance of the Battery(s) to the performance of the vehicle.  I am just trying to find out if something is starting to, or is going badly as to the battery(s) I don't need to wonder...as, an Alert will display advising me to seek Service for the Battery(s).   

[plus 3 golfer]

DTC = diagnostic trouble code stored in a control module which will illuminate the check engine light.  Your guess is as good as mine if a message will be displayed for all HVB DTCs.  If there is a major issue with the hybrid operation, there will likely be a message like "Pull over Safely Now" if you are driving the car or the car will not start..

 

There is nothiing that you can do proactively.  

[ptjones]

The bottom line is I have 201k miles on MADMAX with 52% EV and I'm getting better gas mileage than I did when it was new.  It looks like the HVB will last longer than the car, I am unaware of anyone replacing a HVB. :)

 

Paul

[mysterymeat]

Good evening PT,

 

I've watched some of your videos and have found them to be very informative. With a little luck I might pull off my first 700 miler.

 

I was wondering if you've tried non low rolling resistance tires or a slightly larger size?

 

Thanks, Greg

[ptjones]

Good evening PT,

 

I've watched some of your videos and have found them to be very informative. With a little luck I might pull off my first 700 miler. :)

 

I was wondering if you've tried non low rolling resistance tires or a slightly larger size? I looked at it, but I didn't like the clearance issues, I like 50 psi. instead. :) 

 

Thanks, Greg

Paul

[Telerisk]

I did take my 2016 C-max to the dealer who had said they had diagnostic equipment to test the health of the HVB.  I would have liked to see how/type of testing device used...but no one is allowed in the service area other then employees.  Normal 12v Batteries have very simple testing devices that allow a test of Health Idle and under load....I just wonder if Ford/Dealers have similar Testing Equipment?????

 

I will admit, this is one of those gut feelings on my part as to the HVB health.  Prior to 3 mos ago, the battery symbol "Lived in the Upper zone (40% to 70%) and now its 15% to maybe 55%.  A few times it has gone to perhaps 75%...but runs down quickly traveling in EV.  I cannot say I notice the vehicle going from EV to ICE due to low battery levels...my normal driving is and has been a good mixture of speeds that switches ICE (Power) to EV (Coasting , etc) at reasonable rates given I drive in mostly very high Traffic/lots of Traffic lights/slowing down with Traffic etc.   

 

Bottom line; its just that feeling I get that the batteries after 2.5 yrs; 6,000 Miles....is not holding its charge as it did prior to several mos ago.  With the dealer saying they saw nothing wrong I have little choice here.  Another dealer isn't an option for me, no other Ford dealers in the area...and what may sound contrary to all of this, I do trust the dealer where I purchased the car and had the HVB tested, in fact; although the Service Mgr did not do the testing, he was the person I was working with.....problem is, dealers in my area see/service very..very few Ford Hybrids....my Dealer maybe sold under 8 C-Max's in a given year if that......

 

Be nice to turn off the battery display///I'd never know the difference.....

[ptjones]

I was wondering if you had looked at my YouTube video How to get Great Gas Mileage, I do watch the SOC in it.:   http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/6568-how-to-drive-a-cmax-hybridffh-to-get-great-gas-mileage/page-1

I haven't noticed any change in HVB display behavior in 6 years and I have monitored SOC for at least 4 yrs with my ScanGaugeII.  The lowest I have seen the SOC on the ScanGaugeII is 27% and I believe HVB Display 0% is actually 32% SOC and the Top 100% = 65% SOC so assuming the gauge reads linearly 50% would = 48% actual SOC, 75% would = 57% actual SOC.

From the standpoint of getting the best MPG's you would want to keep the Display % of charge between 25% and 60% and actual SOC would be 38%-52%.

 

As far as turning off HVB Display, it is a useful tool for getting better MPG's, I guess you  could put a piece of tape over it.  :lol: I do drive down to your area on occasion if you were interested having me look at it. Interested in what the Dealer has to say about it. :) 

 

Paul  

[Bill-N]

Just a quick thought; might you have enabled EV+ mode?

[Telerisk]

EV+ mode???   Would that mean turning on the ECO mode?  If so, yes, I did turn on the ECo Mode......

[Telerisk]

ptjones......the dealer just said everything checked out.  But I just wonder how that conclusion was arrived out...by actual Diagnostic equipment....if there is such a device.

 

Hmmmm....I am near Dunedin, FL.  

[ptjones]

I'll check it out and let you know. :)

 

Paul

[jestevens]

EV+ - These cars have a GPS module in them that detects if you've been to the same location frequently, about 11 times or so - if the car detects that you are in the vicinity of a frequently used location it will delay running the gas engine and allow extended electric only range on the battery.  The theory being that when you get in the car and start it tomorrow the engine is going to have to run a while to warm up the catalytic converter, condition temperature of passenger compartment, etc. anyway so it can charge the battery then.

 

The battery gauge you see on the dash and the actual state of charge of the battery are calibrated differently, I think the HVB charging algorithm tries to keep the battery between 20% and 80% state of charge - so even if the dash shows 100% full that may not mean the battery is truly that full.

 

It's always possible that a battery could be failing but your model year is newer than mine and my battery pack is still doing fine, someone would have had to really abuse the car ...as in it spent the majority of its life in open Nevada desert..

Edited September 7, 2018 by jestevens

[jestevens]

I don't think the all electric range of the battery is that great in the hybrid anyway, maybe 2 miles?  Paul is probably one of the best fuel economy experts on C-MAX I'm aware of so he could speak better about that than I could. 

 

What it does do is make stop and go city traffic more economical, It uses the battery to help even out gas usage.  plus they provide more features for trim level, the ride is a lot less noisy and you get the power of a V6 with the fuel economy of a 4 cylinder because of the electric torque.

 

The best gas only crossover gets 29MPG on a good day, driving many miles on a perfectly flat road.  The C-MAX gets 40MPG without even trying most times.  Make sure your car has low rolling resistance tires on it.

Edited September 7, 2018 by jestevens

[ptjones]

ptjones......the dealer just said everything checked out.  But I just wonder how that conclusion was arrived out...by actual Diagnostic equipment....if there is such a device.

 

Hmmmm....I am near Dunedin, FL.  

I could be down in your area Sunday, Monday, what's a good time for you?  You could PM me. :)

 

Paul

[Telerisk]

WOW...I had not opened this up for about a week and decided to take a look for nay updates...and there it was, your POST from Yesterday.

 

How do I send PM to you....I will be going out for about 2 hours.....either day would work for me, which ever day is better for you 

[ptjones]

WOW...I had not opened this up for about a week and decided to take a look for nay updates...and there it was, your POST from Yesterday.

 

How do I send PM to you....I will be going out for about 2 hours.....either day would work for me, which ever day is better for you 

I sent you a PM :)

 

Paul

[Telerisk]

Sure wish the Ford dealerships had the proper testing equipment to examine the health of the Hybryd battery.  They have nothing other than visual, and idle battery evaluation...nothing to put battery under real driving conditions to show how battery health under Load is OK (Elec Motor elec draw).  So for now I seem to drive my C-Max working to keep battery charged then for high gas Mileage.  As I wrote previously, my Battery display symbols may go as high as a little over 50%, but as soon as I drive on EV, it goes down to 20 range.  I believe someone wrote in a prior Post...the battery Display is actually showing a  range of 30% to 80%.  Its just my Feeling the SOC is not at full health and the reason the Battery, as seen by the Display, discharges so quickly when running on EV.  I realize this time of the year the AC is On all the time, its drawing power from the battery, but this is my 3rd summer season of ownership and I didn't experience this issue in prior summers....

 

Oh well, it is what it is...I still manage to get around 40MPG....but prior to this issue, it was higher.  With Ford moving over to more Elec cars maybe their testing equipment will get better in the future.  Nice to know that the Hybryd Battery has a 100% replacement warranty for 8yrs....although I don't plan in owning the C-Max that Long.  If the battery just stops functioning, not saying it ever will, the Gas engine will keep me going if I am not in a place where I can get into a dealership (ie vacation). 

 

Would like to think the 2019 Escape will be released with this Gas\Elec (non-Plug-in) model but seems from what I have read, it may be released with the Plug-in model.....  

[Tennesseecmax]

I'm sure they battery will last at least 10 years. The c-max won't run and drive if the battery fails. Just like other hybrids with a power split device, the battery starts the engine, slows down the car, and provids a lot of the torque in everyday driving. Just an fyi

[ptjones]

The actual SOC is 32% to 65%, you are only using 1/3d of the HVB.  The HVB won't die, it would slowly go down in capacity. I believe there is around a hundred cells in the HVB.  The smaller cell is the Hybrid cell, the big one is the Energi cell

 

Paul

[Telerisk]

For clarity; there are 2 batteries in the C-max; one small one that is used exclusively to Start the car the other larger is the HVB that runs the AC, Power Steering, EV, etc....all Electrical components.  This is just a Hypothetical, If by chance, the Hybryd battery were to go completely dead, would the "Starter" battery start the car and the C-Max would run on the Gas engine.....?

 

Clarity; the battery display....very bottom its showing 32% charge, very top 65% charge?

[ptjones]

For clarity; there are 2 batteries in the C-max; one small one that is used exclusively to Start the car the other larger is the HVB that runs the AC, Power Steering, EV, etc....all Electrical components.  This is just a Hypothetical, If by chance, the Hybryd battery were to go completely dead, would the "Starter" battery start the car and the C-Max would run on the Gas engine.....?

 

Clarity; the battery display....very bottom its showing 32% charge, very top 65% charge? YES :) 

the HVB starts the car not the 12v, 12v. battery is for getting the computers going so the HVB can start the car. The lowest I have seen the HVB SOC% is 27%, I don't think you drain the HVB any lower, it's protected.

 

Paul

Edited October 9, 2018 by ptjones