Who is going to jump to the Escape Hybrid?

[markd]

I'm going to wait for the plug in but I'm moving on. Show of hands

[ptjones]

I will probably go the plugin route, I still will hate to give up the MPG's. :sad:

 

Paul

[markd]

I'm hearing 38mpg, I can live with that.

[jmcgliss]

We need to see how the interior space is laid out, and if the Escape's ride height and tire selection are all about "truckiness" at the expense of mileage.

 

We're averaging 49.5 mpg after 18 months of ownership (including Chicago winters), and spoiled by the ride quality.

[JAZ]

Hybrid for me.

[C-MaxA2]

Given the experience of 2013 C-Max owners and the initial build issues I'd wait 2 years to get one so those problems are found and fixed. I must admit a bit more room (my 2004 Focus Wagon has more room than my C-Max) would be really nice.  The C-Max always makes me feel like they cut off the 'rest of the car' behind the rear seats.  My Ford Focus is considerably bigger than the C-Max back there (and a low floor). 

 

Let's hope Ford doesn't fudge the EPA gas mileage numbers again and ruin another good car like they did with the C-Max.

[markd]

I had a 2004 Focus ZTW that was a awesome vehicle! Lots of room in that thing. We're going to wait until 2021 to trade in.

[C-MaxA2]

My Focus is also a 2004 ZTW (silver)!   5 speed paired to the Mazda 2.3 liter engine - speed and economy (highest mpg was 44 mpg).  I waited until 2004 to buy a Focus since I'd heard a litany of issues with the 2001s (live in Michigan among Ford folks). Love how the rear seats fold down.  Good roof rack (standard; ready to go).  Excellent visibility as well compared to the C-Max.  

 

The Mazda 5 was similar with even more room.  Never could figure out why Mazda advertised them like Ford advertised the C-Max - never saw almost any advertising about them and Consumer Reports liked the vehicle. Now imagine that vehicle in a hybrid...

[zalusky]

I want to hear some road test specs.  The first car comes off the line in Mid August so I expect we will hear something by the end of August.

My big nuisance complaint is the turning radius.  I am pessimistic they will improve it.  I also would like a bit more room storage wise.

 

I will most likely wait for the holiday auto shows to see that and the RAV4/CRV/Escape all together.  

 

The plugin option is something I am on the fence about.

 

I don't like the cheap look of the Rav4 info display and the constant stupid design lines Toyota seems to come up with but the other specs are good.

I need to see the Hybrid info on the CRV to compare as well.

 

The best thing is the CMAX works for me so there is no rush.

[markd]

My Focus is also a 2004 ZTW (silver)! 5 speed paired to the Mazda 2.3 liter engine - speed and economy (highest mpg was 44 mpg). I waited until 2004 to buy a Focus since I'd heard a litany of issues with the 2001s (live in Michigan among Ford folks). Love how the rear seats fold down. Good roof rack (standard; ready to go). Excellent visibility as well compared to the C-Max.

 

The Mazda 5 was similar with even more room. Never could figure out why Mazda advertised them like Ford advertised the C-Max - never saw almost any advertising about them and Consumer Reports liked the vehicle. Now imagine that vehicle in a hybrid...

We looked at the Mazda5 but decided on the Cmax, used the Z code which I'll do again.

[joe]

Escape hybrid road tests are being published on YouTube today.  What I found interesting is that there is a spare tire and under it is the smaller battery used to start the electronics (like the C-Max).  What is nice is that this battery is easily accessible.  Like the C-Max, the second row seat doors are a bit cheaper than the front doors.  One Youtube video said they were getting around 42 mpg.  I suspect that within a week or two, we'll get the official mpg numbers.  We've been debating whether to trade in our 2013 C-Max or the 2009 Taurus (which is in great shape and fewer miles).  

[fbov]

I've been watching the blueovalforum Escape/Kuga forum. They've scooped everyone else every time. 

https://blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/forum/73-escape-kuga-forum/

 

Frank

[C-MaxA2]

While I have low miles on our C-Max and am not really in the market I would never buy a first or second year new model.  It usually takes 1-2 years to identify and fix the initial bugs from a new design.   

 

I am glad to read about a real spare tire (or even just space to store one), the more accessible 12 V battery. The 42 mpg sounds promising (bigger vehicle) since that's what the C-Max had and many of us can beat it by a lot. 

 

Maybe when my 2005 Focus Wagon ages a bit more I might look at an Escape Hybrid. 

[fbov]

Those of us with 2013's are well aware of early production issues. At the same time, I've still got almost 40K miles until "tranny time." Researching trade-in values, mine hasn't changed since last year (likely because I'm still 40K from "tranny time"). It's got me looking at leasing.

 

There's also availability. Early EVs are all AWD Hybrid. Ford won't make the FWD versions (Hybrid and plug-in) until Spring. That makes sense, given winter weather is a common justification for AWD. I'm from the "1 wheel drive, 2 wheel steer, 4 wheel brake" school of winter driving. I worry that AWD might make me one of those guys who just gets stuck farther from the road. 

 

Worries about AWD killing mileage appear unfounded. I looked at several of the test drive videos, all AWD, and those that quoted a number were in the low 40's over rural terrain. Favorable roads but, as we all know, it's the driver that matters. 

 

Also saw one car with Bridgestone Ecopia tires, and Michelin Premier several times. No Energy Saver/AS.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

My concern is with the 1.1 kWh battery as that is 0.3 kWh less than the C-Max Hybrid.  I assume the 0.3 kWh comes off the top of the battery (higher cell voltage) as a lithium ion battery can't operate much lower than the 1.4 kWh HVB does now.  I also assume that since the 1.1 is liquid cooled, Ford likely believes it can operate the 1.1 HVB at a higher cell voltage with little degradation. 

 

Curb weight of the 2020 Escape FWD / AWD FHEV is 3554 / 3706 pounds (2017 C-Max Hybrid is 3640 pounds).  The C-Max usable kWh is about 0.56+ kWh between 30-70% SOC) and normally operating range of 0.2 kWh (14% SOC difference) .  Assuming similar normal operating and usable ranges for the Escape as in the C-Max to get similar benefits of EV operation, the Escape normal operating range might be up to 18% (which should present no issues) but the top end of the usable range might likely be around 90% SOC to accommodate similar levels of regeneration as the C-Max.  There may be Escape owners that might regenerate to the top of the range many times a day and possibly suffer battery degradation and loss of usable regenerative storage. Then, again because the Escape battery is liquid cooled perhaps the temperature of the HVB can be maintained better during regeneration (charging) which does cause HVB temperatures to rise.  

 

I'd really like to buy a PHEV as my next vehicle.  But living in the Phoenix area and charging lithium ion batteries is problematic as the batteries don't like heat.  I'll let other Phoenix owners buy the Escape PHEV and wait a couple years to see how their HVB performs.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[fbov]

...Then, again because the Escape battery is liquid cooled perhaps the temperature of the HVB can be maintained better during regeneration (charging) which does cause HVB temperatures to rise....

My thinking as well. Plus, Li-ion battery aging is a time-at-temperature, time-at-voltage effect as I understand it. Short-term charge peaks with temperature control may not have significant life impacts. 

 

Videos also show a Hyundai-like power circle with both charge and discharge levels shown. I'm curious what aspects of the C-Max displays are incorporated. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

One more point is the warranty on the HVB especially for the PHEV Escape.   Ford needs to step up and define a level of HVB degradation for warranty purposes. Nissan Leaf has a HVB capacity display in segments or bars. "In addition to the lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine segments as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first."  _{Nissan Leaf HVB Warranty}

[62Lincoln]

We need to see how the interior space is laid out, and if the Escape's ride height and tire selection are all about "truckiness" at the expense of mileage.

 

We're averaging 49.5 mpg after 18 months of ownership (including Chicago winters), and spoiled by the ride quality.

 

The 'baby Bronco' will cover the trucky end of the spectrum, the early reviews of the Escape all seem to indicate it will be in your wheelhouse.

[jmcgliss]

The 'baby Bronco' will cover the trucky end of the spectrum, the early reviews of the Escape all seem to indicate it will be in your wheelhouse.

 

That's a good point - Ford has promised multiple new products on the C2 platform.  The new Escape appears to be more Mazda-like.

 

Reading reviews of the 2020 Escape, journalists are calling the Hybrid "the sweet spot" and "the one to buy" vs the gasoline-only models.

 

But, my wife loves her C-Max, so once the lease expires in 2021 she's leaning toward buying it (we got a great deal which would be hard to beat if we traded in the C-Max). Between the ride quality, handling, and mileage ranging from 49 average to 54 peak, the Escape has big shoes to fill. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by jmcgliss

[62Lincoln]

That's a good point - Ford has promised multiple new products on the C2 platform.  The new Escape appears to be more Mazda-like.

 

Reading reviews of the 2020 Escape, journalists are calling the Hybrid "the sweet spot" and "the one to buy" vs the gasoline-only models. My wife loves her C-Max so once the lease expires in 2021 she's leaning toward buying it (we got a great deal which would be hard to beat if we traded in the C-Max).

 

Between the ride quality, handling, and mileage ranging from 49 average to 54 peak, the Escape has big shoes to fill. 

 

Preach on, brother. I have 3 - 2 hybrids (for the kids) and 1 Energi. I love this vehicle.

Edited September 22, 2019 by 62Lincoln

[ptjones]

I talked to a young Lady that just moved into our area with FFH, she was working on New Transit EV with liquid cooled and the best temp for LiON battery was 86*F/30C.

 

Paul

[fbov]

... journalists are calling the Hybrid "the sweet spot" and "the one to buy" vs the gasoline-only models.

 

But, my wife loves her C-Max, ... the Escape has big shoes to fill. 

Given the Escape's position as #2 seller, I found the reviewer preference for the hybrid interesting... will Ford sell a lot of them? I don't know Fusion sales figures offhand, but it's interesting that Ford didn't stop production of our drivetrain; a 2L Fusion Hybrid remains available in 2020. 

 

And I agree the Escape is no C-Max replacement. Ford left the C-Max market, here and in Europe, but they have expanded their hybrid line into SUVs in 2020. Saw a commercial for a 2020 Explorer Hybrid, so I went "shopping" on Ford's online vehicle showroom. The Hybrid is priced in Expedition territory - $50K+ - for a helper motor between the 3.3L engine and 10-speed auto tranny. Similar layout to my wife's Sonata Hybrid, and expected to show up in a truck. 

 

As to the liquid cooled battery, my first thought upon hearing that 30C is optimum temperature is that maybe they'll include a heater? I'll note the vehicle showroom doesn't show a block heater option for the Escape, but it does for several other SUVs. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

2020 Explorer Hybrid has a lot of power but I don't think it gets any better MPG's than my wife's 2013 2L ECO Boost Explorer. It might work as a plugin if it had 30+ mile range.

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

Hard to believe 86 F is "best" for a PHEV or EV (IIRC, the Transit will be EV / PHEV and not a Hybrid) - of course what is the definition of "best" - it likely is different for Ford vs the consumer?  Everything I've read is you don't want to leave the battery at 86 F (30 C) on a full charge as there will be capacity "fade" - fancy word for degradation. Somewhere around 40 - 45 C will cause significant fade over time.  My garage doesn't drop below 100 F for around 3 months during the summer period.  IIRC, 68 F is considered ideal for higher storage capacity / minimum fade.  Note that rbort on the Energi forums won't allow his battery temperature above mid 80 F unlike many of the other Energi owners who have suffered 2 - 2.5 kWh capacity fade (around 30% from 7.6 kWh and 40% fade in the usable kWh) in just several 10 k miles. 

 

The Escape PHEV is to have around a 14.4 kWh battery which should easily give a 30 mile EPA range. Again, the issue is charging fully and allowing the battery to sit for hours at high temperatures.  So, it would likely be better to charge to the lesser of ones expected use or around a 70% SOC to minimize fade.   The loss of 30% of usable range has to be weighed against Ford's warranty.   If Ford would warranty capacity fade to 30% for 8 years / 100 k miles, then one can operate the PHEV like a normal car and not worry about or take actions to prevent capacity fade.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

About the only time I get above 55% SOC is with Regen and then I can hit 65-70% SOC given that I think we have a bigger window temp wise, I think I have seen 120*F going across the desert at OT of 107-110*F. :sad:

 

Paul