Who is going to jump to the Escape Hybrid?

[SnowStorm]

How many miles do you have? Car is seven years old.

 

Paul

183k

[ptjones]

183k

 

Other than the transmission which was well past your warranty it would seem to me that you have done very well. I have never kept a vehicle past 100k miles in 50 yrs., most  were  time to trade in well before then. At 236k miles MADMAX has lasted longer than I would have expected especially given New Tech, obviously cars are being built better now.  :) I don't know what I'm going to do with MADMAX when it finally dies. :sad:

 

Paul

[fbov]

Interesting review that actually mentions the C-Max! Twice!! They think Ford's aiming for RAV-4 mileage, and the reviewers report 41.2 MPG.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125120_review-the-2020-ford-escape-se-sport-hybrid-makes-perfect-sense-for-now

 

And given it's a RAV-4/CR-V/Escape year in this segment, here's a nice piece on Honda's no-tranny, clutch-based system. 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125111_confirmed-2020-honda-cr-v-hybrid-arriving-for-us-in-early-2020-will-top-40-mpg-city

and the drivetrain.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087518_2014-honda-accord-hybrid-has-no-transmission-how-it-works

 

Have fun,

Frank

[SnowStorm]

Interesting review that actually mentions the C-Max! Twice!! They think Ford's aiming for RAV-4 mileage, and the reviewers report 41.2 MPG.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125120_review-the-2020-ford-escape-se-sport-hybrid-makes-perfect-sense-for-now

 

And given it's a RAV-4/CR-V/Escape year in this segment, here's a nice piece on Honda's no-tranny, clutch-based system. 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125111_confirmed-2020-honda-cr-v-hybrid-arriving-for-us-in-early-2020-will-top-40-mpg-city

and the drivetrain.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087518_2014-honda-accord-hybrid-has-no-transmission-how-it-works

 

Have fun,

Frank

Yes, interesting:

• Hmm, "numbers don’t lie—they may exaggerate, yes".  Huh?  See, 47 MPG EPA on the C-Max wasn't a lie, just an "exaggeration"!
• Although good, 41.2 on a single 45.7 mile trip doesn't mean much.  After all, they were driving slowly ("truck rolling slowly ahead") on rolling terrain while drafting (they backed off to avoid debris).  We also don't know initial/final SOC and all the other conditions.  I bet Paul would have exceeded 60 MPG in his C-Max!  Still, it does sound like we might have an SUV that matches the C-Max's EPA rating - quite an accomplishment.
• What's with ICE noise - "engine groans to life", "engine’s gruff note" - hopefully just an "exaggeration"!
• Price.  Is $29,450 the lowest priced hybrid version?  Quite a bit more than a C-Max.
• Looks much better than a RAV4!

The Honda CR-V hybrid looks interesting too.  We're finally getting some hybrid SUV options.  Now we just need the full EV versions!

[joe]

My C-Max, after 7 years and @ 60K miles, has an overall average of 40.9 mpg.  So, if the Escape can deliver that, I'll be OK with it.  Once, when driving all around Yellowstone Park at around 35 mph for a total of around 350 miles, I got around 56 mpg.  So mileage depends a lot on terrain and speed.  What I like about the Escape is the increase technology and safety features.  I'll probably get the titanium model with the heads-up display, fancy display screen, etc. 

 

I just discovered that the Escape (not sure which models but assume at least at the higher levels) will have the keypad in the door which I found useful in my Taurus when I didn't have my key with me.

[plus 3 golfer]

Didn’t know that the Honda Accord Hybrid had the 2 motor, clutch transmission. Now I know why CR got 52 mpg on the highway in the Accord hybrid besting the 47 MPG rating . It uses a clutch to provide a direct connection of ICE to the drive wheels. Thus, at higher speed, ICE can operate at a lower rpm with a higher gear ratio and higher torque which can increase FE with EV assist if needed and the electric motor can also be used as a generator to charge the HVB while not increasing ICE rpm. ICE can continue to operate at low rpm, high torque. At lower speeds, ICE only turns the generator (clutch open) providing power to the motor which power drives the wheels wheels or to charge HVB. So, the single drive gear for ICE can be at a very high gear ratio. See video below.

 

The C-Max can effectively change the final drive ratio by operating in negative split mode (generator consumes power and spins in opposite direction to reduce ICE rpm). But, after a few miles, the HVB needs charged and the car switches to positive split mode (generator produces power and causes ICE rpm to increase). Thus, unlike the Accord, ICE rpm has to increase to charge the HVB. ICE Is likely then not operating at it’s most efficient point.

I

I will take a hard look at the CRV hybrid. I’ll bet the CRV will have a highway EPA FE rating around 10% better than the Escape.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fmMb45PPrmg

Edited October 9, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[JAZ]

Here's the 2020 ESCAPE Owner's Manual.  Oil capacity increased from 4.5 to 5.3 qts. and no recommendation of 0W-20.

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/Catalog/owner_information/2020-Ford-Escape-Gas-HEV-PHEV-Owners-Manual-version_1_om_EN-US_07_2019.pdf

[plus 3 golfer]

I talked to a young Lady that just moved into our area with FFH, she was working on New Transit EV with liquid cooled and the best temp for LiON battery was 86*F/30C.

 

Paul

Okay, I finally had time to look at the C-Max service manual and I doubt the HVB of the Escape Hybrid will be any different with respect to "best temp for LION battery."

 

"The ideal High Voltage Battery temperature is 25°C (77°F) with a desired range of 20°C (68°F) to 30°C (86°F)." _{- 2014 C-Max Service Manual}

 

Think how the discussion changes if this is actually the best MAXIMUM temperature...

 

As I said previously, "It wouldn't surprise me if your thinking is correct." ;)  

 

With a liquid coolant loop for the HVB and a heat exchanger that taps the HVAC refrigerant loop (or something similar or separate system), maintaining a temp below 86 F should not be an issue except: what happens upon start up when the interior has been heated up to 130+ F in the Phoenix summertime sun?  The C-Max HVB appears to handle the temp but the HVB is generally around 50% SOC or less.  Again, since the Escape will only have a 1.1 kWh HVB, what will its normal SOC be?  How long will it take after startup to cool a several hundred pound HVB with liquid coolant to 86F or below from 105+ F midday garage temperature for around 3-4 months?  I'm still concerned.

[fbov]

... what happens upon start up when the interior has been heated up to 130+ F in the Phoenix summertime sun?  ... How long will it take after startup to cool a several hundred pound HVB ...

Set up a thermal siphon so you get passive flow through the system's radiator when the HVB is hot? You got 5 qts. to play with. 

Use active Peltier devices to cool the HVB when it's hot?

 

Given I don't see EV+ listed in the manual, I'll wager Ford's using GPS data to map where the car is stored, so the control system can draw down HVB charge level when it thinks you're about to park it. Some things we won't know until someone's driving one. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

Edited October 10, 2019 by fbov

[plus 3 golfer]

EV+ discharging HVB works great now since I pass within the trigger range on a parallel street most times but still have to travel over 1/2 mile to get home. SOC generally ends in the mid 30 % SOC when I get home. When I start the car the next morning I have seen as low as 32% SOC and ICE immediately starts. I would also think Ford will still use the EV+ algorithm in the future even though they may not indicate its use to the driver.

 

Yesterday, I monitored HVB temp, cooling fan speed, inlet temp at BECM (the location of the sensor appears to be under access cover to the BECM, TCM, and DCDC converter) with AC set point temp at 74 F, ambient at 89 F, speed at 75+ mph. Inlet temp showed 79F, HVB temp was 86F and fan speed between 2250 - 2400 rpm. When I got off the interstate with speeds in the low 30 mph, inlet dropped to 77F, fan speed was around 1000+ rpm, and HVB temp 84-85 F. I’m going to run some controlled test and record data but it certainly seems like the HVB cooling algorithm uses 86F as the maximum desired temp. Problem though I doubt we will see 100F ambient temp until next May. I do want to see what happens in cooler temps in 40s.

[ptjones]

With EV+ I see in the morning quiet a few times with SOC 27%, it lurches to start.

 

Paul

[djc]

Consumer Reports "first drive"  summary:

 

 

"The 2020 Ford Escape makes a good first impression, with nimble handling, a solid feel, and a roomy and versatile interior. We particularly like that it comes standard with forward collision warning (FCW), automatic emergency braking (AEB), and blind spot warning (BSW)—features that are optional on some competitors. So far, it appears to match up well to its competitors, including the CR-V, CX-5, Forester, and RAV4.

The previous generation Escape had average or better reliability for its final three years. In terms of owner satisfaction, when looking at 3- and 5-year-old models, the Escape was always middle of the road, with just about half of CR members saying they would definitely buy it again.

 

What we bought: 2020 Ford Escape SE AWD
Powertrain: 181-hp, 1.5-liter three-cylinder turbocharged engine; eight-speed automatic transmission; all-wheel drive
MSRP: $28,595
Options: $2,810, which includes 17-inch aluminum wheels, panoramic roof, floor liners, remote starting, Ford Co-Pilot360 Assist (which includes voice-activated navigation, and adaptive cruise control)
Destination fee: $1,195
Total cost: $32,600"

 

They say the 1.5 turbo is fine, the 2.0 is plenty powerful.

[ptjones]

What size of tires do they use on the Hybrid? What is the difference between Hybrid vs ICE model.

 

Paul

[fbov]

Your OEM tire size options are

225/65R17

225/60R18

225/55R19

 

You can't get a hybrid with the 18's, but they fit. The engine is just another engine option...

 

Frank

[fbov]

Some interesting links... 

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/escape/2020/2020-ford-escape-first-test-review-cr-v-fighter

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a29077713/2020-ford-escape-drive/

 

And it looks like Ford is holding Escape Hybrid deliveries... I saw a post from someone with a 10/2 Escape Hybrid build date that shows still at the plant. I'll wager there's a story behind that... like being extra careful about EPA ratings this time around? epa.gov still rates only the 1.3L engine. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

Edited October 26, 2019 by fbov

[ptjones]

Michelin makes a 215/65-17 ES which would improve mpg's, but a little narrower. Just noticed Michelin makes a 225/65-17 ES interesting it's 27.3" in diameter vs 28" for 215/65-17 that seems weird.

 

Paul

Edited October 26, 2019 by ptjones

[SnowStorm]

Some interesting links... 

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/escape/2020/2020-ford-escape-first-test-review-cr-v-fighter

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a29077713/2020-ford-escape-drive/

 

And it looks like Ford is holding Escape Hybrid deliveries... I saw a post from someone with a 10/2 Escape Hybrid build date that shows still at the plant. I'll wager there's a story behind that... like being extra careful about EPA ratings this time around? epa.gov still rates only the 1.3L engine. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

One review says "The system's complex gearbox works in the background...".  Where do they get the idea this is a "complex gearbox"?  There are no clutches and it never shifts gears (mechanically), not even for reverse!  I wonder what they think of those dual clutch contraptions with 6 or more (?) gears.  Maybe they're referring to the software!  Another example of why I pay such little attention to these "reviews", other than general information.

 

As to possible delivery delay, I wonder if its possible to ship any vehicle before the EPA ratings are published.  They may indeed be exercising great care to get it right but may also be tweaking everything to get the best rating possible.  With hybrids becoming a mainstream option and several competing hybrid SUVs out there, Ford has to get this thing right.  If they hit 39 with a competitor at 40, it won't look good competitively - even though its rather insignificant.

 

P.S. Of course Paul will get 50+ no matter what number they come up with!

[fbov]

FYI First hybrid Mulroney

https://blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/68154-epa-estimate-for-escape-hybrid-is-out-40-combined-mpg/

 

Yes, they made 40/43/37 with AWD.

 

Frank

Edited October 28, 2019 by fbov

[SnowStorm]

Well, well, not bad.  So will FWD be better?  Still nothing on Ford site or fueleconomy.gov.

2018 C-Max was 40/42/38.

Edited October 28, 2019 by SnowStorm

[ptjones]

I find it weird they don't call it a Escape Hybrid SE AWD instead of saying what ICE it comes with. :headscratch:

 

Paul

[zalusky]

I am still waiting for complete specs specifically turning radius.

[fbov]

I see 38.4 ft. in my notes, vs. Rav 4's 36.1 and the 2019's 38.8 ft. It's one downside of FWD; my Volvo 940 was 32.2 ft. 

Frank

[ptjones]

Turning radius really wouldn't make a difference to me, some times it's a little annoying, but wouldn't be considered in the buying process.  :) When replacing MADMAX  interior space has to be at least as good as CMAX, I came from a 2010 FEH and missed the extra space. Has to get good MPG's and Sporty to drive.  Have good info system.

 

Paul

[fbov]

For those interested in towing! The first official documentation I've seen ....

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/resources/general/pdf/guides/20Towing_Ford_Escape_Oct15.pdf

 

Nothing new, just confirmation: 1500 lb. What's odd is that the gross combined weight ratings (GCWR) only leave 325 lb. for cabin load... if the trailer's full, no luggage for you!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[stratosurfer]

For those interested in towing! The first official documentation I've seen ....

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/resources/general/pdf/guides/20Towing_Ford_Escape_Oct15.pdf

 

Nothing new, just confirmation: 1500 lb. What's odd is that the gross combined weight ratings (GCWR) only leave 325 lb. for cabin load... if the trailer's full, no luggage for you!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

 

 

Seeing as the C-Max has zero rated-towing capability, or rather 'not recommended' and I tow 1,000 lbs 1,000 miles each month with the car. In the Texas Hill Country in 100F Plus heat monitoring all parameters with OPS NORMAL, I'm thinking the Escape should be quite comfortable, particularly with AWD at towing 2,000 lbs. Remember that Ford's bread and butter is the F-150 and they want to do everything possible to get you to upsize your towing capability to 'a more capable option'...

Edited October 30, 2019 by stratosurfer