salman

Just heard from the service manager that Ford engineers told him to check 4 electrical connectors for water intrusion.The connectors are in the front end of the car. My car has three of the four specified connectors (4th is for fog lamps, which I do not have). All the connectors had water in them, which would cause a short. The service dept put my car through a high pressure car wash last week after they performed the TSBs for battery issues. That might have shot water into the connectors, caused a short, and drained the battery. I do not yet know the identity of the 3 connectors but will ask for that detail. My understanding is that they are under the hood and/or behind the dash, located where water could drain down or splash up from the road. Ford's engineers told him to check these connectors, so that means there have been similar problems on other cars. So far no one on this forum has posted information about water intrusion in electrical connectors. The connectors appear to be a defective design. The engineers told the service manager to check the connectors but did not give him instructions for what to do if they were wet. The service manager is pressing the engineers for an answer. If it is a defective design it might be a while until new connectors are produced. Ford will replace my battery, too, when the connection problem is solved.

re-posted from TSB 13-5-1 thread: Bad news: dead battery 3 days after service. Battery dead this morning. New symptoms: I opened the drivers door with my key. Inside the car I could hear two noises. From the front passenger side there was a repetitive clicking sound coming from the dashboard or shifter/storage console. From the rear of the car there was a repetitive low thumping sound, like a small electric motoring repeatedly trying to operate to open a door or hatch or something like that. All the doors and the rear hatch were locked. My recent service included TSB 12-11-8, 13-4-7, and 13-5-1, and also two more items. The key fobs were reprogrammed to prevent the global open function for the windows from operating on their own (this had happened 4 times). And due to a warning light coming for the passive restraint system the RCM Module was replaced and then because that did not solve the problem they replaced the left front impact sensor and then because that did not solve the problem they removed the passenger seat to inspect the wiring and found "three high resistance circuit causing fault" and repaired those circuits. The new dead battery problem could possibly stem from something that happened with wiring under the passenger seat. I am concerned that the battery could be damaged from being depleted and also that the switch and small electric motor being repeatedly activated could be damaged, too. This is my second dead battery episode. The first was in december, just a few days after buying the car. My car will be towed to the dealer today or tomorrow, depending on my schedule. I will let you know what happens.

Bad news: dead battery 3 days after service. Battery dead this morning. New symptoms: I opened the drivers door with my key. Inside the car I could hear two noises. From the front passenger side there was a repetitive clicking sound coming from the dashboard or shifter/storage console. From the rear of the car there was a repetitive low thumping sound, like a small electric motoring repeatedly trying to operate to open a door or hatch or something like that. All the doors and the rear hatch were locked. My recent service included TSB 12-11-8, 13-4-7, and 13-5-1, and also two more items. The key fobs were reprogrammed to prevent the global open function for the windows from operating on their own (this had happened 4 times). And due to a warning light coming for the passive restraint system the RCM Module was replaced and then because that did not solve the problem they replaced the left front impact sensor and then because that did not solve the problem they removed the passenger seat to inspect the wiring and found "three high resistance circuit causing fault" and repaired those circuits. The new dead battery problem could possibly stem from something that happened with wiring under the passenger seat. I am concerned that the battery could be damaged from being depleted and also that the switch and small electric motor being repeatedly activated could be damaged, too. This is my second dead battery episode. The first was in december, just a few days after buying the car. My car will be towed to the dealer today or tomorrow, depending on my schedule. I will let you know what happens.

Picked up the car this afternoon. The service adviser told me he contacted the hotline and the TSB was so new that even the engineer at Ford was startled. Fingers crossed that all will go well from here on out. Thanks to all who have been persistent in responding to Ford to let them know there was a problem and to all who have been sharing information.

thanks as luck would have it my car is at the dealer now and i was due to pick it up this morning. They performed the older TSBs and also (separate issue) replaced a bad passive restraint sensor. Just called to ask them to do TSB 13-5-1. Would not have known about it without your help.

I can't find it on the web. Not yet posted on "fordservicecontent.com" . How are you accessing/finding the TSB releases?

Plus 3 Thank you. I do not think anyone else has posted information about TSB 13-4-7. We are all still waiting for a TSB about the step down converter charging system.

Mbedit You're the best! You've been great about acquiring and sharing information. Thank you.

Temp61 Would you please add a few more details, if you can? When did your car experience 12 volt problems and when did you first bring it to the dealer? And how many times after that? Do you know how your dealer monitored current draw over time? Or how they tracked the draw to the ABS system? Thanks

Just doing google searches for ford's TSB 12-11-8, and this is what I find: It addresses radio and accessory shutdown problems and was issued on 11/15/2012 according to 2013 Ford Flex owners. Ford has had this TSB out for other Ford vehicles since November 15, 2012. Why it is just now being performed on our C-Maxs is a mystery to me. Read the following thread about Ford Flex electrical issues: http://www.fordflex.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8794 Here is a facebook page from a Ford/Lincoln dealer that seems to quote the TSB: https://m.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=478881998829078&_ft_=fbid.478881998829078 Some 2013 C-Max, Escape, Edge, Explorer, Flex and Taurus vehicles equipped with a 4.2-inch Front Control/Display Interface Module (FCDIM), excluding Monochromatic Displays and MyFord Touch, may exhibit the radio staying on for approximately 20-30 seconds after the key is off and the door open. TSB 12-11-8 If you have experienced this concern, and your vehicle fits this description, call our service department to schedule an appointment for the newest update and repair. 330-456-2781 November 19, 2012 at 1:34pm I have some doubts that the radio staying on an extra 20-30 seconds is the cause of our 12 volt problems.

Oxnard Brilliant of you to snap a photo and wonderful of you to share it. Just want to make sure I am reading the TSB # correctly: is it 12-15-11?

Marty & Andrew Thanks for the news about the software patch. Please let us know if there is a TSB number for the software. I'm eager to find out if it works.

Max Have you already tried the 5W solar panel and shown a fuller charged battery? I don't recall you mentioning this in earlier posts, so I am not sure whether you mean that have already tested it or are saying that you plan to test it. My understanding is that after a battery gets depleted and especially after getting depleted repeatedly, that battery no longer takes and holds a full charge. Sulfation degrades its capacity. It is possible that the converter (or the software controlling the converter) is not fully charging the battery, but it is also possible that the battery has been degraded by repeated depletion due to power drains. Your experiments might help provide clues to answer that question.

Andrew I am glad that Ford is being good about the buy back. What bothers me about Ford engineering's definition of the problem is that it is more difficult to solve a problem when the problem is not correctly identified. Their comment about driving distances and electrical loads came after many of us have spent 3 months trying to get Ford central to take our problems seriously. That was time consuming for us. I wish Ford had been quicker out the gate on this and I remain concerned about how focused they are on correcting the problem. That said, the fact that Ford now has at least two 12 volt related buy backs on its ledger books has got to be motivation for them to solve the problem, so this news from you is an optimistic data point. Thank you for your public spiritedness in sharing information with us.

Andrew That is bad and discouraging news. You are clearly in lemon law territory and Ford needs to give you a refund or replace the car. I hope Ford will agree to this with a minimum of effort on your part, but, as you know, it is best to be prepared to make a strong argument. Rebutting the Ford engineers' claim that the battery failures result from short drives with accessories plugged in would be a key point if Ford does not agree to take the car back. I am personally angry that Ford is casting the problem in terms of short trips and plug-ins. My failure happened after several days of 30 minute drives and I never had any accessory plugged in. Most of the cases logged on this board did not have accessories plugged in and in many cases the car was being driven on substantial trips. Even if short trips and accessories were prompts for the problem, it would still be a design issue: too small a battery, too slow a charge from the converter. Ford's story about short trips and plugged in accessories is either a lie to evade responsibility or a dramatic failure to communicate information within Ford. Many of us have talked to customer care and given them details of our experience. Mbedit was called by the engineers, so he spoke to them directly! How can the engineers then say this problem is principally an issue for short-trip drivers with plugged in accessories???? This is very disappointing to hear. Please keep us posted on your conversations with Ford, Andrew, and thank you for giving us so much information.

Mbedit - Many thanks for keeping us informed. It sounds like the investigation of your returned car has become the center of Ford's efforts to diagnose the problem. I am struck by the fact that Bymaine's car was about to get a radio related part replaced (which seems tied to the investigation of your car, Mbedit) and then that the part replacement was put on hold by Ford's engineers (which even more clearly seems tied to their work on your car). Meanwhile, the software patch promised about 2 weeks ago has not arrived, and that makes me wonder what the genesis of the software story was at Ford. I wonder if there was some other car we have not heard about that they were pulling apart and thought they found a software bug, or if maybe it was just a story to buy time.

RedLdr Yes, one would hope the battery warning light would be triggered by a charging malfunction, e.g. if charging via the step down converter stopped completely. But there could be a less total malfunction, such as software overly slowing or restricting or prematurely shutting down the charging of the 12 volt battery. The use of computers to regulate charging by converter in the C-Max is different from the use of a belt driven alternator in ordinary gas engine cars.

Andrew It is possible that the problem is related to charging rather than discharging. If software or something else is not allowing the step down converter to charge the 12 volt battery sufficiently, then it could result in a dead 12 volt system unable to unlock or start the car, just like a broken alternator in a regular gas engine car would lead to a dead battery. Whether this is the problem or not is something only testing will show. But it seems like a logical possibility. A discharge problem (a circuit that stays open, a short) is a logical possibility, too. It could also be a hardware problem with the converter.

RedLdr Thanks, that is very generous of you and the information about your case is very important for all of us who have our car in the shop or may have it in the shop again in the future. I think we will need to make Ford test circuits, especially around the instrument panel, in exactly the same way your dealer did it. Either it will produce results or it needs to be systematically eliminated as a potential cure by testing.

RedLdr May we please ask you to post the name of your dealership so that in our discussions with Ford we can make a clear reference to your case? That way Ford central can confer with the mechanics who worked on your car. I do not think any of us have had a live circuit problem traced to the instrument panel or to anyplace else. Mbedit's car had a power drain but his mechanics never were able to trace it to a source, although, as I recall, he said they looked at the instrument panel, too. For all the rest of us, no power drain has shown up on tests, but this might be a byproduct of how the mechanics are testing for power drains.

Oxnard In the "Dead Battery" thread look up the posting by Andrewxx. He probably is the owner of the other car your dealer is trying to fix. Andrewxx reported the promise of a software fix a few days ago. Other owners in other parts of the country are not yet hearing about a software fix, but about electronic control modules and possible wiring problems. Time will tell if any of these produce results. Your case is the first time we on this board have heard about a dealer getting more than one dead 12 volt case. Sadly it probably will not be the last time.

davesalvatore If you look over the posts on these threads you will see that all of us who have had 12 volt problems have been calling Ford's central customer care line as well as pursuing matters with our dealer's service departments, and we have been sharing information among ourselves, too. The battery booster comments are about backup plans so people don't get stuck in the middle of nowhere. It is not an alternative to Ford fixing the problem. There is a lot of information on these threads that you can use to make sure your dealer's service department is learning from other cases and calling into Ford's "hotline" for service techs. And all of this information could also help you make a Lemon Law case, if/when you get to the point that you can invoke NY's statutes. In return, please post as much information about your experience as possible: what model CMax, what accessories, when the incidents happened, any odd details around the failures, and anything the dealer did besides replacing the battery. Information can help us all.

RedLdr Thanks for your post on the battery survey thread. Back in November you reported that your instrument panel was changed: "The dealer turned loose their electronics guru and he found that the Instrument Panel was defective and causing the battery to slowly discharge over night. My short day trips the previous Saturday had been spaced close enough together it wasn't an issue. A new Instrument Panel was ordered, arrived Friday morning, and was installed that afternoon." Was the instrument panel the only part that was changed? Since the change have you had any episodes of 12 volt failure? So far your case seems to be the only one in which a power drain has been identified and successfully traced to its source (some recent cases might be end up being successful, too, but have not had enough time for testing). And yours is the only case in which the instrument panel has been reported as the cause. Any additional information you can provide would be great. Would you give us the name of your dealership? We might need to ask Ford to look up your case record and we'd need to give them enough information to find your case.

Here is a quick recap of Ford's proposed fixes for 12 volt problems as they have been reported by us on these threads. This is based on my memory, so please add/correct as needed: 1 - change the 12 volt battery for a new one 2 - change a module (presumably an ECM = Electronic Control Module) in the instrument panel (see discussion in the "Dead 12v Battery in My Cmax" thread) 3 - change faulty wiring harnesses (perhaps associated with the radio/communications panel) 4 - change/repair frayed wiring at the rear hatch 5 - engineer a software to be made available next week (not clear what software is targeted, though it might be connected to battery charging and/or shutdown). 6 - replace an ECM for the "accessories" (not clear to me whether accessories means radio/communications, lighting, 12 volt power outlets, etc) Ford's fixes number 3, 4, 5, and 6 have all been reported in the past 7-10 days. I suspect this might reflect some confusion or failures of communication on Ford's part, and it probably also means that Ford has not yet definitively identified the cause of the problem.

Yark99 Thanks for the update. Please try to get as much information as you can from your dealer's service department about where they think they have found draws on the battery and how they found the trouble spots. that could be very useful for the rest of us. The 12 volt battery supplies 12 volt current that runs accessories including the door locks and also supplies power to start the car by starting up its computer systems. The LiOn battery is high voltage. When the car is running there is a step down converter that converts high voltage current to 12 volts to run accessories and re-charge the 12 volt battery. But when the car is off the converter is not available. That's why the LiOn battery can have a charge but cannot be used to open the door locks and start the car. Those things can only be done from current taken off the 12 volt battery.