Smiling Jack

+3: Actual list price was closer to $3800 for a 4-KWH add-on. Installation was additional. A 2-KWH add-on was about $2000. I did not pay list price. I got mine at a heavy discount beacuse I was the first pilot tester for the Camry installation. I not only did my own installation, but I worked out all of the Camry-specific installation details for the manufacturer. There are other similar add-on units, but they were even more expensive. The same unit was used very successfully by Ford Escape Hybrid owners. From a fuel economy standpoint, and from the standpoint of integration with the car, the unit was a dream, but reliability problems with the battery balancing and control electronics were nightmarish. The manufacturer was good for the replacement of bad components, but the down time and hassle were hard to bear. Unfortunately, the manufacturer ultimately went out of business. Some of us thought that the coet of warranty replacement of components may have contributed to this outcome. Some users were concerned about the warranty impact, but most, like me, were not. To deny a warranty claim, the auto manufacturer must (per Federal law) prove that the add-on actually caused the problem. The way the system worked it was difficult to see how it could possibly have an adverse effect on the car's OEM hybrid system. If anything, it should have (logically) prolonged the OEM HV battery life. The experience absolutely sold me on the PHEV concept, but the reliability problems, the death of the manufacturer and the hassle of the add-on made me want a complete OEM PHEV. The possible price difference between a C-max Hybrid SEL and a C-max Energi will of course vary from time to time. I was originally looking at the same sort of price difference as you were, but the dealer then cut the price for the Energi by $3000, and that did the trick. Honestly, though, at that point I was emotionally so committed to the PHEV concept, that without that discount, i probably would have bought a lesser equipped Energi I was shopping at another dealer. And, of course, original price aside, every buyer needs to weigh the total fuel cost according to their own pattern of use. In my case, I figured that with only a few mpg difference in Hybrid mode, I would need to drive about 200 miles per charge before the extra fuel cost in the Energi would outweigh the savings in the first 20 miles of EV.

My opinion is: There is an underlying cause of the 12-volt battery problems and than there are many immediate causes of failure. The system just seems to be way too vulnerable to failures from various immediate causes. Ford has been struggling to diagnose and fix a long series of immediate causes, but it is like a big disastrous game of Whack-A-Mole. (Every time they fix one, another pops up.) I think that the underlying cause must be in the nature of an unacceptable vulnerability of the 12-volt system, and that the whole problem will not go away until that underlying vulnerability is diagnosed and cured.

I also had one of those add-on plug-in conversion units on my Camry Hybrid. List price for the conversion unit was nearly $4k. My experience with that unit convinced me that plug-in hybrid was what I really needed, but I wanted it from the factory and I wanted more cargo space. Ford does indeed have a Plug-in model for the C-Max. It is called the C-Max Energi. So, that is what I wound up with to replace the Camry. With incentives and tax refund, a plug-in C-max Energi (~SEL) can often be had for the same price as a non-plug-in C-Max SEL. Check it out Added plus: The Energi's also re-charge the 12-volt battery whenever they are plugged in and they all come with the equipment selections that have been less prone to the 12-volt battery problems. As a result very few C-max Energi's have reported 12-v battery problems.

And, of course, since the A/C draw at stable conditions will be essentially constant power, regardless of vehicle speed, the faster you go, the less the mpg impact will be ! Conversely, if you simply troll around at very low speeds (or, worse yet,if you sit nearly forever at a RR crossing) the mpg hit will be HUGE.

Ok, Jus, thanks for reining me in. Maybe "incompetent" is a little harsh since they have not given up and are still working on it. Let's give tham a few more years before we use that label. However, I'm sticking with "inept."

Yeah, Jus. I agreee, mostly, but there are two other big points to be made re. the GM switch problem and the C-max battery problem: 1. GM knew about the switch problem early-on and tried to hide it rather than fix it. (Once again, the cover-up is indeed worse than the crime.) But once the cat was out of the bag, they were able to fix the thing. 2. Ford, although they initially tried to trivialize the problem (and a lot of dealers apparently still do so), were never guilty of hiding it. Unfortunately they have, so far (well over a year), proven completely inept at diagnosing it, let alone solving it. So, what do we prefer: malevolence or incompetence ? I prefer incompetence. At least that can be cured.

My father once pretended to tear up a ticket. While the cop who wrote the ticket gazed elsewhere, Dad slipped the ticket into his pocket and took out a large index card which he tore into pieces and threw down in front of the cop. The officer responded by writing Dad a ticket for littering the highway.

Note: the 45% figure is for Ford's share of the PLUG-IN Hybrid market - entirely plausible. Ford's share of the Hybrid market is shown in this article as about 15%

A very, very important point by Darrelld ! Masterfully and quite poetically said by C-max SEA ! He certainly knows how to turn a phrase. I particularly enjoyed: "......more like shades of gray, or better yet, yellow to light green (all shades of caution) !!!" As I recall, the WINNERS of the J D Power initial quality survey award, over the years, have typically scored about 30%; i.e. about a third of their cars needed repair in the first 3 months - and that's the WINNERS ! The losers commonly score worse than 50%, and that group sometimes includes some major luxury brands!!!!!. It seems to me that this is a level of failure that we simply would not accept in anything other than an automobile. How did it come to pass that the auto industry has duped us into accepting such a horribly low level of quality, industry wide?

Interesting, but mine does not seem to fit well into that. I could perhaps force it in a bit and hold it in while turning, but it does not seem to be designed for that purpose. Am I missing something?

The C-max may not be EXACTLY a hybrid version of the new Escaspe, But it certasinly is as close as you could get.

Please post a link to this "other" forum.

Be careful with this idea until you have actualy seen some data to bear out the intuition. I once had a professor who promised to present a graph of test grades vs. number of homework problems turned in. In the end, he announced that he would not show the graph because the correllation was negative; i.e. the students who had turned in the fewest homework problems tended to earn higher test scores than the ones who had turned in more problems.. The professor was mystified by this result, but it made perfrct sense to some of the high scorers who explained that the homework problems were really hard (and there were too many of them, and they were repetitious) and that those of us who took the time to learn and understand a few of the problems simply did not have the time or energy left to do even most of the problems. On the other hand, many of those who turned in all of the problems were more interested in completing the assignment than in actually learning anything; so they did a hurried and cursory job, which did not help them deal with getting the right answers on the test problems.

Got it, thank you. Now, I'm supposing that this would not do very much good at lower street speeds. Right?

And they look even more similar from the side ! There are those Escape roof rails again. I keep wondering whether they would install onto the C-max! My old thesis was that the C-max is so similar to the new Escape that it is - essentially - a 2013-14 Escape Hybrid. On further reflection, I still don't think they're different enough to keep the C-max from being labeled an SUV in the same sense that the Escape is so labeled. However, I do see now that, in addition to sitting taller, the Escape has more rear cargo area, and the difference is not merely the battery space. The Escape rear box is noticably a bit longer, more squared off and taller. I remain interested to read the opinions on the overall comparison from any who have owned both the C-max and the new style Escape.

Has everyone here heard the interesting story concerning the reason why the same car was historically sold in the UK with the name of Daimler and in the US with the name of Jaguar Van den Plas?

Adrian, Please tell me more about this "under the seat" business. Are we talking about the front seat or the rear? How in the world would it fit? I might be inclined to go for that solution if I could get a clear idea of how it would fit.

I'm curious. What would a Platinum have that is not on the 303A with roof?

Pretty darned good !!! And I suppose you were running the A/C quite a bit. Correct?

From my post on the Energi forum: It was actrually much easier than I expected, extremely simple, actually. The stock front license mount is attached with 3 pop rivets. These must be drilled out. I went to the dealer's parts department and bought 3 replacement rivets, partly to see what I was getting into, partly to see what size hole to drill (1/4 inch diameter will do), partly for possible use in my new mounting, and partly as a hedge in case I needed to revert to the original configuration. With the rivets out, I decided to replace the rivets with screws. I found some black rubber grommet nuts just about the right size. Actually they were a bit oversize. I could have drilled the holes out a bit larger, but (still hedging) I decided to shave the grommets down. (Having it to do over, I would enlarge the holes.) I pressed the grommet nuts into all 3 original rivet holes and fitted them with machine screws and washers. At this point I had a removable, replaceable, mount for the original position. The stock unit mounts in three places. The two top places are secured to black plastic between the horizontal chrome grille strips. The lower centered one is secured to the body paint colored bumper cover. To make the mounting in the lower posirion, I simply turned the mount upside down, retaining the single fastening location. I then secured the new bottom two fastening locations to the lower grille slate with (releasable) nylon tie-wraps. Prior to tightening down, I lined the (new) bottom edge of the mount with a rubber piece I made by splitting a length of automotive vacuum hose. I hoped this would both prevent shifting an protect the paint from being marred. I simply left the two upper black grommet nuts in place. They are hardly visible. Actually they are less visible than the holes. Actually, Jack

Quite easily done. I have posted the details. I will find that post and provide the link.

Paul, Very nice tire life! Thanks for mentioning the pressures. What are your rotation habits? I have also done about 70 k on Michelins on other cars, usually with tire pressure a bit above the door jamb sticker values and with MINIMAL tire rotations (maybe twice in the life of the tires), I usually do a rotation only when I observe a noticablly greater wear on the fronts, and I always rotate strictly front to back. If i see any wear difference right to left (and I rarely do), I figure I need an alignment. By the way, I see by the picture in your signature block that you have the front license plate mounted higher than the stock position. you can see that I have mine lower than the most commonstock position. I think that the common stock position breaks the lines of the grille outline and spoils the "Aston Martin" styling. I like thee look of yours as well.

Further to this, space comparison (cubic feet): Escape C-Max Hybrid C-Max Energi passenger space 98.1 99.7 99.7 space behind 1st row 67.8 52.6 42.8 space behind 2nd row 34.3 24.5 19.2

Others have reported fitting 4 of those (max carry-on bags), and that is without folding down either of the back seats. On the othe hand, if you need more space than the C-max Energi has, then a Plug-in Hybrid is simply not in your picture at this time. Or if you generally like the C-max overall and you need even more space than the C-max Hybrid has, you would probably love the the eco-boost Escape. Looking at it the other way around, If youve already chosen the C-max Hybrid over the Escape, then you have already chosen to give up a bit of cargo space to accommodate the Hybrid system. The next question is: Would you be willing in to give up a bit more to have the Plug-in Hybrid? For some of us, the clear answer to that was yes. For others, it was no. And now most of us will defend our choice to the death!

Interesting, thanks. But I have no such "doors" on my 2013 Energi.