Battery dead

[Bill-N]

Just got me thinking, I wonder how many AHr battery you would need to jump the car since you don't have to start the starter with it. It would be neat to have small 12v batt. that you could put in you door to quickly jump the car.IMO :)

 

Paul

 

Wondering about that myself.  But I soon realized that, with the 12V battery dead and still connected, it will create a big demand.  The dead battery would probably overwhelm the small battery before the small battery had a chance to trigger the HV battery relays.

 

My 2 cents.

[ptjones]

Wondering about that myself.  But I soon realized that, with the 12V battery dead and still connected, it will create a big demand.  The dead battery would probably overwhelm the small battery before the small battery had a chance to trigger the HV battery relays.

 

My 2 cents.

It would probably come down to how dead the battery was I guess. I have a 18Ahr portable jumper battery just in case. My voltage this morning was 11.4v, I wonder how low it has to get before it won't start? :)

 

Paul

[mikeg]

Ok, so our C-Max is dead again. Not plugging anything into the USB port is not the cure. No idea what to do now, no point in bringing it into the shop, they have no idea what to do with it either. :(

[Smiling Jack]

It would probably come down to how dead the battery was I guess. I have a 18Ahr portable jumper battery just in case. My voltage this morning was 11.4v, I wonder how low it has to get before it won't start? :)

 

Paul

 

Paul, I believe, is correct.

 

I have not had this problem in the C-max, but I did have it several times in my Camry Hybrid.   The Ford system is very, very, similar to the tToyota system (cross licensing).

 

In my Toyota experience, it did, in fact, come down to how low the 12-v battery was.  If it was just a bit down, hardly any amp-hours were required. I just connected an auxiliary battery, and the car turned on immediately.  Others posted that a laptop computer's battery was enough.  I keep a very small re-chargable 12 v battery in the car just for such use.  But if the "12-v" battery has been totally drained, you would need to supply enough cherge to bring it up to near 12 volts before the relays will be energized.  In the worst case I'm guessing that you might need to supply a charge equal to a goodly portion of the rating of the car's 12-v battery.

[salman]

Ok, so our C-Max is dead again. Not plugging anything into the USB port is not the cure. No idea what to do now, no point in bringing it into the shop, they have no idea what to do with it either. :(

 

 

You should bring it in to have a record of a repair attempt, which you will need if you ask Ford for a buy back.

 

You should also make sure the shop has tried everything reported on the forum. Have they checked electrical connectors? Have they checked all the connections on the Body Control Module by pulling it, reinstalling it, and reprogramming it? 

 

If they have tried all of this and have nothing more to try from Ford's hot line, then get them to write that in a letter which you could include in a buyback request.

 

You say the shop does not know what to do . . .  have they contacted Ford's engineers via the hotline?

Edited April 11, 2014 by salman

[ptjones]

I think someone has mentioned putting trickle charger in back or the front of car to keep 12V charged. It would be a easy thing to do. For me if it happens to me, Dead 12V Batt., I would put it up front with the Oil Pan heater and ICE Block heater, that way I would only need to plug in one thing if they are all connected together. LOL :)

 

Paul

[mikeg]

Salman,

 

Thank you for your advice. 

 

To your questions, the shop says that they tried all of the above and that Ford told them to look for an "outside cause" which we translated as something taking "too much power" via the USB port, but obviously that's not it. I agreed with the service advisor that I would bring it in on Monday, but he said that he has not heard back from Ford on what else to try, so the will get me a rental, and keep it there for a few days again, and then say that they couldn't find anything / replicate the problem - unless something changed in the car in the last 3 weeks, but somehow I doubt that. In other words, I feel hopeless and helpless. I have read above that the same stuff is happening with 2014 models, so obviously Ford hasn't identified what the source of all these problems is. The guy that was jump starting it said again, "I am getting a lot of these for some reason." After the car was jump-started, the clock in the car was at 9:28AM... Is this the time when the car died? We drove back in the late evening, and the drive was a lot of downhill, and the lights were on. Then the next morning, we didn't drive anywhere. The car was sitting in the garage until the late afternoon when we discovered that it was dead. In other words, I feel like if we had driven my daughter to school in the morning, then this last jump starting would have been prevented.

 

I offered to let them add some "debugging" device to the car and watch the battery and other systems until it happens again, and then they would know if something didn't turn off, but obviously that's not an option - I find it weird that Ford has not asked for volunteers for such a program. I am sure that most of us would agree to having their car monitored just so they can find out what's going on and get it fixed. The car is awesome when it drives.

 

Once I get it back, I will stop using bluetooth audio as well. In other words, i will be driving a hybrd car without any perk (bluetooth, usb, or electicity plug). Is there anyone whose car has been jump-started 2-3 times and hasn't had the problem for over 3 months since the last occurrence?

 

Michal

[kostby]

Be sure to contact Ashley, who posts as FordService, one of several 'official' Ford reps who frequent this site.

 

FordService

Edited April 12, 2014 by kostby

[ptjones]

Salman,

 

Thank you for your advice. 

 

To your questions, the shop says that they tried all of the above and that Ford told them to look for an "outside cause" which we translated as something taking "too much power" via the USB port, but obviously that's not it. I agreed with the service advisor that I would bring it in on Monday, but he said that he has not heard back from Ford on what else to try, so the will get me a rental, and keep it there for a few days again, and then say that they couldn't find anything / replicate the problem - unless something changed in the car in the last 3 weeks, but somehow I doubt that. In other words, I feel hopeless and helpless. I have read above that the same stuff is happening with 2014 models, so obviously Ford hasn't identified what the source of all these problems is. The guy that was jump starting it said again, "I am getting a lot of these for some reason." After the car was jump-started, the clock in the car was at 9:28AM... Is this the time when the car died? We drove back in the late evening, and the drive was a lot of downhill, and the lights were on. Then the next morning, we didn't drive anywhere. The car was sitting in the garage until the late afternoon when we discovered that it was dead. In other words, I feel like if we had driven my daughter to school in the morning, then this last jump starting would have been prevented.

 

I offered to let them add some "debugging" device to the car and watch the battery and other systems until it happens again, and then they would know if something didn't turn off, but obviously that's not an option - I find it weird that Ford has not asked for volunteers for such a program. I am sure that most of us would agree to having their car monitored just so they can find out what's going on and get it fixed. The car is awesome when it drives.

 

Once I get it back, I will stop using bluetooth audio as well. In other words, i will be driving a hybrd car without any perk (bluetooth, usb, or electicity plug). Is there anyone whose car has been jump-started 2-3 times and hasn't had the problem for over 3 months since the last occurrence?

 

Michal

I don't think there is a problem when the car is running, just when been sitting a while. I think the jumper battery makes the most sense to protect you from losing anymore time. That way it can still fail so you know there is still a problem. If you use a trickle charger you won't have anymore dead battery at home but still could somewhere else if it sat awhile. :) 

 

Paul

[nfoster]

Yes, mikeg, my C-Max had died 3 times by early May 2013, and then it didn't die again until early August.  Then, it didn't die again until late December, just when I had started thinking the problem had miraculously been fixed (since the Ford maintenance guys didn't really do anything to it in August because they didn't know what to do).  I almost never plugged anything into the usb port or electrical plug, though I did use the Bluetooth.  There did not seem to be any rhyme or reason to when the problem occurred. 

[wab]

Salman,

 

Thank you for your advice. 

 

To your questions, the shop says that they tried all of the above and that Ford told them to look for an "outside cause" which we translated as something taking "too much power" via the USB port, but obviously that's not it. I agreed with the service advisor that I would bring it in on Monday, but he said that he has not heard back from Ford on what else to try, so the will get me a rental, and keep it there for a few days again, and then say that they couldn't find anything / replicate the problem - unless something changed in the car in the last 3 weeks, but somehow I doubt that. In other words, I feel hopeless and helpless. I have read above that the same stuff is happening with 2014 models, so obviously Ford hasn't identified what the source of all these problems is. The guy that was jump starting it said again, "I am getting a lot of these for some reason." After the car was jump-started, the clock in the car was at 9:28AM... Is this the time when the car died? We drove back in the late evening, and the drive was a lot of downhill, and the lights were on. Then the next morning, we didn't drive anywhere. The car was sitting in the garage until the late afternoon when we discovered that it was dead. In other words, I feel like if we had driven my daughter to school in the morning, then this last jump starting would have been prevented.

 

I offered to let them add some "debugging" device to the car and watch the battery and other systems until it happens again, and then they would know if something didn't turn off, but obviously that's not an option - I find it weird that Ford has not asked for volunteers for such a program. I am sure that most of us would agree to having their car monitored just so they can find out what's going on and get it fixed. The car is awesome when it drives.

 

Once I get it back, I will stop using bluetooth audio as well. In other words, i will be driving a hybrd car without any perk (bluetooth, usb, or electicity plug). Is there anyone whose car has been jump-started 2-3 times and hasn't had the problem for over 3 months since the last occurrence?

 

Michal

 

 

"I offered to let them add some "debugging" device to the car and watch the battery and other systems until it happens again, and then they would know if something didn't turn off, but obviously that's not an option - I find it weird that Ford has not asked for volunteers for such a program. I am sure that most of us would agree to having their car monitored just so they can find out what's going on and get it fixed."

 

The company I retired from has had that attitude for the past 10 years.

" We have the worlds best equipment, engineers and technicians PERIOD!"

 

 

Edited April 13, 2014 by wab

[salman]

2nd dead battery episode this morning on my 2014 C-Max SE. (the lemon law replacement car for my 2013 C-Max . . .)

 

being towed to the dealer now.

 

one new weird symptom: the driver's side rear door was unlocked. All other doors were locked. Suggests a possible malfunction in the electronic locking system.

 

will see what the service department and engineers can do, and will ask for a higher level of involvement from  Ford's engineers (will see what Ford says about that).

[ptjones]

With as much trouble as they have had I would think FORD would make OBDll recorder to record the last 12-24hrs to see what is going on. The Dealers could request it when they had a problem and then return it to FORD when problem solved. IMO :)

 

Paul

[Maxy]

 

Salman,

 

Thank you for your advice. 

 

To your questions, the shop says that they tried all of the above and that Ford told them to look for an "outside cause" which we translated as something taking "too much power" via the USB port, but obviously that's not it. I agreed with the service advisor that I would bring it in on Monday, but he said that he has not heard back from Ford on what else to try, so the will get me a rental, and keep it there for a few days again, and then say that they couldn't find anything / replicate the problem - unless something changed in the car in the last 3 weeks, but somehow I doubt that. In other words, I feel hopeless and helpless. I have read above that the same stuff is happening with 2014 models, so obviously Ford hasn't identified what the source of all these problems is. The guy that was jump starting it said again, "I am getting a lot of these for some reason." After the car was jump-started, the clock in the car was at 9:28AM... Is this the time when the car died? We drove back in the late evening, and the drive was a lot of downhill, and the lights were on. Then the next morning, we didn't drive anywhere. The car was sitting in the garage until the late afternoon when we discovered that it was dead. In other words, I feel like if we had driven my daughter to school in the morning, then this last jump starting would have been prevented.

 

I offered to let them add some "debugging" device to the car and watch the battery and other systems until it happens again, and then they would know if something didn't turn off, but obviously that's not an option - I find it weird that Ford has not asked for volunteers for such a program. I am sure that most of us would agree to having their car monitored just so they can find out what's going on and get it fixed. The car is awesome when it drives.

 

Once I get it back, I will stop using bluetooth audio as well. In other words, i will be driving a hybrd car without any perk (bluetooth, usb, or electicity plug). Is there anyone whose car has been jump-started 2-3 times and hasn't had the problem for over 3 months since the last occurrence?

 

Michal

"Dead battery in the morning. This is my 5th at 6000 miles. Car is a year old. Last dead battery was 10 month ago. Prior to that every 4 weeks. Done all the updates required to solve problem, except the recent 12 v replacement which is next on my list. I do have the Stanley Simple Start, but does not seem to work. How and where is the best way to plug it in? How do you open the trunk when car is dead?

Thanks for any new info! " - this was my posting to another battery related forum. Since than, thanks to Paul I have some more knowledge on the jump starting. However, I have owned 2 cars previously for over 10 years each and never had to jump start! So a bit frustrated. I am not too optimistic about the battery replacement recall, since it has not worked to several others. Taking it back to the dealer is a hustle, even more when the solution is not there. Now I don't use anything other than my Bluetooth for the phone, trying to narrow down the problem. But realistically it is a pain in my behind for buying a new car with all the special features I am afraid to use. Although obviously it doesn't make a difference. And strangely I still love my car....

[fbov]

...I find it weird that...

What exactly do you think Ford does with the lemon-law buy-backs? They already have dozens, just judging by posts here!

 

I work in industry. We sometimes have to replace a machine at our cost. These machines always come back to engineering for failure analysis, as something is wrong, even if it's an intermittent short from a pinched wire (in one recent case).

 

With as much trouble as they have had I would think FORD would make OBDll recorder to record the last 12-24hrs to see what is going on. ...

As we've been reminded on the OBDII thread, these devices only access emissions-related information, not the full vehicle network. I'm expecting they interrogate everything on the buy-back cars.

 

Have fun,

Frank

Edited April 14, 2014 by fbov

[ceemax71]

I have had my C-Max for over a year and have not had a dead battery, yet.  It was built on 3/15/2013.

I ordered it before I was aware of the dead battery issue and was fully anticipating having a dead battery at some point in time. 

Expecting to have a dead battery, I have had a voltage logging device plugged into the cargo 12 volt outlet for over a year and the only time the battery voltage got too low was when the dealer was doing a software update.

 

It seems like the dead battery problem is a recurring problem for the same owners (through no fault of their own).

One possibility could be that the Sync module has a bug that prevents it from going to sleep when connected to certain smart phone models or phone configurations.

There might be several unique circumstances that cause the dead battery. (environment, drive patterns, proximity to electrical noise sources, etc.)

The fact that Salman has had dead batteries on two different vehicles somewhat supports this hypothesis.

 

I think it would be very useful for Ford engineering to monitor the battery voltage and/or current on those vehicles to help identify the cause of the problem. 

It would definitely isolate the problem to either inadequate charging or to a problem with a parasitic load after the vehicle is shut down.

 

Remember, I'm pulling for you; we're all in this together. 

[wab]

What exactly do you think Ford does with the lemon-law buy-backs? They already have dozens, just judging by posts here!

 

I work in industry. We sometimes have to replace a machine at our cost. These machines always come back to engineering for failure analysis, as something is wrong, even if it's an intermittent short from a pinched wire (in one recent case).

 

As we've been reminded on the OBDII thread, these devices only access emissions-related information, not the full vehicle network. I'm expecting they interrogate everything on the buy-back cars.

 

Have fun,

Frank

 

 

I have had my C-Max for over a year and have not had a dead battery, yet.  It was built on 3/15/2013.

I ordered it before I was aware of the dead battery issue and was fully anticipating having a dead battery at some point in time. 

Expecting to have a dead battery, I have had a voltage logging device plugged into the cargo 12 volt outlet for over a year and the only time the battery voltage got too low was when the dealer was doing a software update.

 

It seems like the dead battery problem is a recurring problem for the same owners (through no fault of their own).

One possibility could be that the Sync module has a bug that prevents it from going to sleep when connected to certain smart phone models or phone configurations.

There might be several unique circumstances that cause the dead battery. (environment, drive patterns, proximity to electrical noise sources, etc.)

The fact that Salman has had dead batteries on two different vehicles somewhat supports this hypothesis.

 

I think it would be very useful for Ford engineering to monitor the battery voltage and/or current on those vehicles to help identify the cause of the problem. 

It would definitely isolate the problem to either inadequate charging or to a problem with a parasitic load after the vehicle is shut down.

 

Remember, I'm pulling for you; we're all in this together. 

 

 

I ALWAYS found it a real challenge to convince an engineer that real world testing (trouble clearing) is ALWAYS better than testing in the lab.

[ptjones]

I was wondering if most battery failures have been at home. :)

 

Paul

[salman]

I have had my C-Max for over a year and have not had a dead battery, yet.  It was built on 3/15/2013.

I ordered it before I was aware of the dead battery issue and was fully anticipating having a dead battery at some point in time. 

Expecting to have a dead battery, I have had a voltage logging device plugged into the cargo 12 volt outlet for over a year and the only time the battery voltage got too low was when the dealer was doing a software update.

 

It seems like the dead battery problem is a recurring problem for the same owners (through no fault of their own).

One possibility could be that the Sync module has a bug that prevents it from going to sleep when connected to certain smart phone models or phone configurations.

There might be several unique circumstances that cause the dead battery. (environment, drive patterns, proximity to electrical noise sources, etc.)

The fact that Salman has had dead batteries on two different vehicles somewhat supports this hypothesis.

 

I think it would be very useful for Ford engineering to monitor the battery voltage and/or current on those vehicles to help identify the cause of the problem. 

It would definitely isolate the problem to either inadequate charging or to a problem with a parasitic load after the vehicle is shut down.

 

Remember, I'm pulling for you; we're all in this together. 

 

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

I do not think there is anything environmental or driving habit related that contributes to the double whammy I am experiencing: I live in a warm and dry place. No special electrical noise and no pattern of anything else suffering fro interference. I drive the car nearly every day and often enough for middling to longer drives. Dead batteries have happened after longer drives (ie next day dead battery). Don't use the 12 volt outlets, don't use the USB ports, don't use bluetooth, always shut everything off before exiting the car.

 

Ford does not think it has anything to do with the locality or my use of the car.

 

Sync is a possible culprit, but so too is every computer system on board, every switch, and every electrical system.

 

Ford is advising my shop to look at the coolant pump and the shifter lever, since they have found these to seem to be causes in other cases( ie, in other case they changed these things and did not have a repeat dead battery). Interestingly, no one on the forums has reported anything about these two items in connection with battery troubles. There are obviously more than a few dead battery cases not reported on this forum.

 

I am asking to be put in direct touch with a Ford engineer. Don't know if they will agree but does not hurt to ask.

[salman]

I was wondering if most battery failures have been at home. :)

 

Paul

 

yes, all or nearly all.

 

the logic of that seems simple: it takes time to drain the battery and cars are parked longest at home. It also might take time before a system comes alive while parked.

 

At work a car might sit for 8 hours or a little longer, in most cases.. At home it might sit for 12 to 14 hours or longer before being started again.

Edited April 14, 2014 by salman

[ptjones]

yes, all or nearly all.

 

the logic of that seems simple: it takes time to drain the battery and cars are parked longest at home. It also might take time before a system comes alive while parked.

 

At work a car might sit for 8 hours or a little longer, in most cases.. At home it might sit for 12 to 14 hours or longer before being started again.

It is getting pretty obvious this a time issue and is probably happening away from home but is not long enough to not start the car. From that you could determine how many amps/HR it would take to drain the battery to where the car wouldn't start. Just an idea.  Over night I'm seeing 11.4v before I start the car. :) 

 

Paul   

[jdbob]

Remember, I'm pulling for you; we're all in this together. 

 

[SnowStorm]

Dealer ads for C-Max say:

 

"390CCA Maintenance-Free Battery w/Run Down Protection" :love_shower:

 

Anybody know what that means?  Is it new to the 2014?  Still crazy about this car but would sure like some "run down protection"!

[DaveofDurham]

Dealer ads for C-Max say:

 

"390CCA Maintenanc :love_shower:e-Free Battery w/Run Down Protection"

 

Anybody know what that means?  Is it new to the 2014?  Still crazy about this car but would sure like some "run down protection"!

 

From ehow.com:  

What Is a Battery Rundown Protection Relay?

As the name implies, a battery protection relay keeps the battery from becoming discharged. The relay prevents electrical accessories from draining energy by disrupting the power supply. The battery could be unintentionally depleted by an accessory device that was left on purposely, or by some malfunction that could keep a device powered up for an extended period. A timely response from a protection relay safeguards the battery and ensures that proper charge levels are maintained for engine cranking. Timers are triggered by various means to initiate function of the relay.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/info_12245983_battery-rundown-protection-relay.html#ixzz2yueOz3q6

 

I have noticed that if I turn the motor off and sit in my car listening to the radio that the radio turns itself off after about 10 minutes.  Maybe that is an example of the run down protection in action.  Apparently it does not always work or it does not protect against certain drains of energy from the battery.

 

While looking for this info, I also found the T-Max Dual Battery System.  Not a practical option for the C-Max, but interesting to see that it exists.

See   http://www.autoanything.com/car-batteries/69A6229A0A0.aspx

" . . . No matter how much strain you put on your system, a backup power cell ensures you have the current to conquer any task. With the T-Max Dual Battery System, you can safely integrate an extra battery into your auto. Not only does it regulate the voltage across your system, but it also comes with a display that shows the health of your batteries in real-time. . . "

[joe]

I have an 2013 SEL and never had the battery problem.  But I have found that I cannot use the accessory mode to play the radio or set the GPS because within a few minutes, the center screen will indicate that it will shut down the system - I'm assuming because it is draining the battery.  I then turn the car on (pushing the starter button with foot on brake) in order to listen to radio or use sync, etc. 

 

Since most SEs don't have the larger center screen, maybe there is a battery protection circuit for the SELs which is absent in the SE models????