Battery dead

[salman]

Hybrid Dude

 

Ordinary tow trucks can use a wheel lift. The tow truck hoists up one end of the car and the other pair of wheels are jacked up of the ground by the wheel lift, which is a jack on wheels. The car stays in park. When towed it rolls on the wheel lift's wheels. 

 

Even if the dealer jumps the car to read trouble codes from the computer there are  still reasons to tow it while dead, especially if the dealer and/or Ford are not yet doing everything they need to do to fix it. Towing while dead proves beyond a shadow of doubt there is something wrong.

 

Has your dealer service checked the electrical connectors and the coolant pump?

[Hybrid dude]

Yes, the second tow truck was an old school one, which did the job. This is the first time I've been able to get the car to the dealer in dead condition. I don't know what they will check or not, but advised them as best I could to check with the higher ups. What good it will do, I do not know. 

 

I'm well beyond the Mass. lemon law period, so is this vehicle worth anything in trade, anywhere other than a Ford dealer? I really love the handling and electric mod of the car, but need it to start reliably.

[ptjones]

As the one who created this post, I can safely report I finally had my third dead vehicle incident just now, same scenario, parked overnight, nothing left on or plugged in, yada yada yada. It's been a while, I think more than a year. I was able this time to get the car towed in its dead condition to the dealer, but not after being treated rather rudely by the first Ford tow truck person, who came with a flatbed and said I would have to pay $45 in order for him to winch the car up onto the flatbed. I refused, of course, and he wished me a good day.

 

A normal tow truck showed up a while later and hauled it away.

 

When the first driver said he couldn't tow it in Park, I looked in the manual and there actually is an emergency override method to engage neutral, but after remove the one fastener from the right side console, I gave up, not wanting to destroy the plastic material. Has anyone ever successfully removed this panel without damage?

 

Anyway, I did my best to plead my case with the service advisor, telling her I'd recommend calling in Ford engineers, etc. before jumping it. She was confident they had to jump it to enable code reading, so there's nothing else I can do. I suggested using a voltmeter but that probably did go over too well.

 

Just to note, I've had every TSB, recall, etc. done to the vehicle but as you all know, that's not the fix.

A bit over 25,000 miles and annoyed.

The way things turned out you might as well jumped started it, at least you would know If you could or not. They need to check what condition your 12v battery is in. Would have been nice to know what Voltage the battery had left. Do you have EV+ turned on? It seems that most dead battery problems have happened at home over night. Probably just an other coincident, I have had several times over the last two years were something is running underneath the rear of the car and I have restarted the car and shut off again and the noise stops. When the problem happens once a year it make it very hard to diagnose the problem. :)

 

Paul   

Edited August 15, 2014 by ptjones

[Hybrid dude]

It was jump started the previous several times and then on one of those occasions they did find fault with the 12V battery, which they replaced. I read and was advised to have it arrive dead the next time.

Yes, each time has been after an overnight stay and yes, EV+ was the mode when it was parked.

Yes, a problem of this nature which in my case rarely occurs must be annoying to the dealer techs as well.

[salman]

Yes, the second tow truck was an old school one, which did the job. This is the first time I've been able to get the car to the dealer in dead condition. I don't know what they will check or not, but advised them as best I could to check with the higher ups. What good it will do, I do not know. 

 

I'm well beyond the Mass. lemon law period, so is this vehicle worth anything in trade, anywhere other than a Ford dealer? I really love the handling and electric mod of the car, but need it to start reliably.

 

I would recommend being very specific with the service manager about checking electrical connectors and the coolant pump. The connector numbers are posted in the thread and there is already a SSM message out from Ford about the coolant pump. My advice is that you should demand that they check these things and that they contact engineers on Ford's hotline and that they show you the communication (it is an e-mail-like system). If they won't do that, go to a different dealer for service.

 

Also, double check the lemon law. Most cover a new car for 2 years, I think.

[kc1174]

Has anyone here who had the 12v issue had their water pump replaced? Just wondering as I know that's one of the suggested causes but it's been anecdotal so far. My connectors looked awful when I looked with my untrained eye, but got nowhere with dealers when it came to replacement. Trying to avoid rain and puddles, and carrying round a jump starter is getting a little tiresome now. I was over in the UK again last week, and their C-Maxes have their water/coolant pump rotated differently to ours. The service manager there showed me a 2012 up on the ramp with the cover off and he's never seen a corrosion issue with them and also checked their ETIS system and nothing. The pump looked the same and was in a similar location. And it obviously rains more there too..

[DaveofDurham]

Has anyone here who had the 12v issue had their water pump replaced? Just wondering as I know that's one of the suggested causes but it's been anecdotal so far. My connectors looked awful when I looked with my untrained eye, but got nowhere with dealers when it came to replacement. Trying to avoid rain and puddles, and carrying round a jump starter is getting a little tiresome now. I was over in the UK again last week, and their C-Maxes have their water/coolant pump rotated differently to ours. The service manager there showed me a 2012 up on the ramp with the cover off and he's never seen a corrosion issue with them and also checked their ETIS system and nothing. The pump looked the same and was in a similar location. And it obviously rains more there too..

 

Yes, look at post #1261 in this thread.     "I have not had a dead battery episode since my coolant pump was changed in April. . . "

[salman]

If you have had a dead 12 volt episode and your service dept will not check your electrical connectors for water intrusion, then you should go to a different dealer for service. And they won't check them, then write a letter to Ford Customer Service.

 

Water intrusion in connectors is a problem that is recognized and documented by Ford.

 

The dealerships are franchised, as are the service departments. And some mechanics and service managers are better than others. Some are terrible.

 

Do not take no for an answer if you have had a dead 12 volt episode.

 

As for opening the connectors and looking yourself: on the one hand, if you see water or corrosion, then you know there is a problem. On the other hand, I would not be inclined to open the connectors because I would be concerned that Ford might claim the connecotrs leaked only because you messed with them.

 

And, yes, changing the coolant pump seems so far to have solved the dead 12 volt problem on my car. Ford has an SSM advising dealerships that there is a problem the pump's connectors and that they are working on a fix, by which I think they mean a redesign of the part. My car had a new pump installed (old design, I believe it must be) which they water proofed by packing the connectors with dielectric grease.

[Hybrid dude]

Hybrid Dude

 

Ordinary tow trucks can use a wheel lift. The tow truck hoists up one end of the car and the other pair of wheels are jacked up of the ground by the wheel lift, which is a jack on wheels. The car stays in park. When towed it rolls on the wheel lift's wheels. 

 

Even if the dealer jumps the car to read trouble codes from the computer there are  still reasons to tow it while dead, especially if the dealer and/or Ford are not yet doing everything they need to do to fix it. Towing while dead proves beyond a shadow of doubt there is something wrong.

 

Has your dealer service checked the electrical connectors and the coolant pump?

The service advisor told me today that my vehicle started normally on the first attempt. So, unless the tow truck driver jumped it upon arriving at the dealer, which I can't imagine he would, my electrical problems are random.

 

I'll suggest tomorrow they check the electrical connectors. Should they check all of them or specifically the ones at the coolant pump?

[salman]

The service advisor told me today that my vehicle started normally on the first attempt. So, unless the tow truck driver jumped it upon arriving at the dealer, which I can't imagine he would, my electrical problems are random.

 

I'll suggest tomorrow they check the electrical connectors. Should they check all of them or specifically the ones at the coolant pump?

 

somewhere on this thread there is a TSB that lists several (6, I think) connectors on the main wiring harness. They should check those connectors and they should check the connectors on the coolant pump.

 

your report of the car being totally dead and then, according to the dealer, starting without being jumped or charged is unique. Make sure the dealer did not jump or charge your battery. And double check your own memory: was the car totally dead (nothing electronic worked, from door locks to radio to engine)?

 

All the dead 12 volt cases have always started after being jumped or charged, and all would then continue to start for a while after that for days, weeks, even months until suddenly there would be another dead 12 volt episode.

 

Could the dealer be saying that they jumped the car and it started, so they think they see nothing wrong????

 

of course it could be that your car has a different and unique problem that is not a dead 12 volt problem. 

[wab]

The service advisor told me today that my vehicle started normally on the first attempt. So, unless the tow truck driver jumped it upon arriving at the dealer, which I can't imagine he would, my electrical problems are random.

 

I'll suggest tomorrow they check the electrical connectors. Should they check all of them or specifically the ones at the coolant pump?

 

 

somewhere on this thread there is a TSB that lists several (6, I think) connectors on the main wiring harness. They should check those connectors and they should check the connectors on the coolant pump.

 

your report of the car being totally dead and then, according to the dealer, starting without being jumped or charged is unique. Make sure the dealer did not jump or charge your battery. And double check your own memory: was the car totally dead (nothing electronic worked, from door locks to radio to engine)?

 

All the dead 12 volt cases have always started after being jumped or charged, and all would then continue to start for a while after that for days, weeks, even months until suddenly there would be another dead 12 volt episode.

 

Could the dealer be saying that they jumped the car and it started, so they think they see nothing wrong????

 

of course it could be that your car has a different and unique problem that is not a dead 12 volt problem. 

 

 

Here's a link to the "Possible Water Intrusion In Connectors" SSM 32298 thread in the Maintenance, TSB's & Recalls sub forum.

 

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/2428-ssm-32298-2013-c-max-fusionmkz-hybridenergi-possible-water-intrusion-in-connectors/

 

"SSM 32298 - 2013 C-MAX, Fusion/MKZ Hybrid/Energi - Possible Water Intrusion In Connectors

Some 2013 C-MAX, Fusion/MKZ Hybrid/Energi vehicles may exhibit various drivability or electrical concerns accompanied by one or more diagnostic trouble codes, with the most common being P26C3, P26CA, P26D0, P2800, P2802, U019F and U0284. On C-MAX inspect connectors C134, C140, C144, C1651, C1717 and C1812 for signs of water entry/corrosion and service as necessary. On Fusion/MKZ inspect connectors C146, C1651, C1812 and C2251 and service as necessary."

 

 

[salman]

good karma points for that, Wab.

 

That is the list of connectors to check on the main wiring harness.

 

Service techs should also check connectors on the coolant pump.

 

(if this stuff is checked on all dead 12 volt cases it will either solve the problem or it will tell us that there is another cause that has not yet been identified. Please post results. Post information about what was checked, what was found, and then updates on whether the dead 12 volt problem re-occurs. It is information we all need.)

[Hybrid dude]

Thanks for all the info.

 

In addition to the vehicle starting normally when it arrived at the dealer, the service advisor told me there were no codes reported. Thus, they will not dig into the coolant pump and/or connectors unless I pay for it, which I won't.

 

Is it possible some connector or other component may have been jarred enough on the tow truck ride to return the system to normal operation ... just a thought.

 

They have assured me, however, that they replaced enough parts to eliminate the creaking like an old ship, which I and others have detailed in another subject. I'll check it out this afternoon.

 

I'll begin researching another vehicle, as the unreliability is unacceptable. It's too bad because I really like the way it handled and the ability to 'go electric' on various trips.

[salman]

The problem with the electrical connectors is that water and/or corrosion caused by water leads to shorts and a failure of systems to shut off, which drains the battery after the car is turned off. It is not a problem of connections being loose (and then possibly being jarred back into connection by the tow truck).

 

If your car started after being towed to the dealer and started without being jumped or charged, then one of two things happened: either 1) your car was not dead at your house and maybe you did not check fully to see if nothing electrical would work (not doubting or challenging you, just laying out the logical possibilities) OR 2) this was not a dead 12 volt episode which happen when the battery is drained while the car is shut off, but a different problem of kind not previously reported on these threads.

 

Of course a third possibility is that the dealer did jump start the care and they fibbed to you about it. If you are sure the car was totally dead (no elctronic lock function, no lights, wouldn't start, nothing, dead, no juice, zip) AND if you have any doubts about the dealer service being sub-par, then any next episode of trouble should be brought to a different dealer. . . . unless you are already at the lemon law buy back stage.

 

It seems odd to me that the dealer will not check the electrical connectors. Checking them is quick: you unplug the connectors and look to see if they are dry and clean. If you have had two or more dead 12 volt episodes I think the dealer should check the connectors without question. They should really check the connectors on the first dead 12 volt episode since the SSM has been out for many months at this point. I might be wrong about this, but to my mind a dealer service department that won't check the electrical connectors (as the SSM instructs) is not a good service department.

[Hybrid dude]

No worries about doubt, but yes, everything was dead ... door locks, lights, ignition, etc.

 

A further piece of evidence is the service advisor said the car was actually still dead when it arrived at the dealer and was tagged into their system by the person who does that job. When the technician went to try, it had come back to life. I don't doubt the dealer but think my theory of a jarred connector is wrong.

 

Are the connector something I can inspect myself?

 

I have yet to pursue the lemon law but I think I may have too many miles already and too long an ownership.

[salman]

No worries about doubt, but yes, everything was dead ... door locks, lights, ignition, etc.

 

A further piece of evidence is the service advisor said the car was actually still dead when it arrived at the dealer and was tagged into their system by the person who does that job. When the technician went to try, it had come back to life. I don't doubt the dealer but think my theory of a jarred connector is wrong.

 

Are the connector something I can inspect myself?

 

I have yet to pursue the lemon law but I think I may have too many miles already and too long an ownership.

 

I would advise against your checking the connectors mainly because you have an active warranty case and you may still be able to make a lemon law claim. My thinking is that you want your case (warranty or lemon law) to be flawlessly strong. Messing with anything that you don't ordinarily touch or use in driving or routine driver performed service could be used by Ford if they fight against you. Conversely, the stronger and cleaner your case is, the more likely Ford will respond positively to any reasonable request or demand you might make.

 

Checking the connectors would not be hard. you'd need to be able to read the wiring diagram to locate the connectors, then open them, check them, and close them again. Problem is if a piece of plastic breaks while you are doing it, Or if there is a problem later with water intrusion and Ford says it is your fault.

 

My suggestions are:

 

1) you need to know exactly where you stand in relation to lemon law rights, and time is of the essence, so nail that down right away. If you can still make a lemon law claim, you'll need to decide whether to do it. 

 

2) you still have warranty rights. I think you have three possible courses of action within this realm: A) write to Ford & the dealer and then go back to the dealer to have them check the electrical connectors and do anything else required to figure out what went wrong with your car, B) decide that the dealer is subpar because they should have checked the connectors and done other things to figure out the problem, and maybe they did jump the car to start it, and in this case you should start going to a different dealer for service, or C) wait until the next episode and then be firm in pursuing A or B.

[mrobinso8]

Battery dead again yesterday morning.  Spent two hours awaiting a jump start.  To the dealer again Tuesday.  Had battery replaced Memorial Day weekend when it died previously.  That battery lasted about a year.  Wife really liked the car but is getting afraid to drive it as she does not want to be stuck somewhere.  Car has 14,000 miles and this is the 3rd 12 volt battery to die in this car.  We hate to spend the money but are looking for a replacement next week.  Not a Ford.

[drdiesel1]

Battery dead again yesterday morning.  Spent two hours awaiting a jump start.  To the dealer again Tuesday.  Had battery replaced Memorial Day weekend when it died previously.  That battery lasted about a year.  Wife really liked the car but is getting afraid to drive it as she does not want to be stuck somewhere.  Car has 14,000 miles and this is the 3rd 12 volt battery to die in this car.  We hate to spend the money but are looking for a replacement next week.  Not a Ford.

It's a shame they just keep replacing that battery. I don't think they're testing your car for a parasitic draw. Too bad.

Sorry you've had this problem. It's tough when you have parts changers at the dealerships, but that's about what

the job has turned into nowadays. Kids working for low pay and your vehicle is nothing more than a guinea pig.

[Hybrid dude]

salman Thanks for your advice.

[adamisbomb]

so monday, 3 days ago, i buy a used 2013 cmax sel with all the options minus park assist and the foot thing to open the hatch. Drive it monday night, tuesday and weds am for about 160 miles. works perfectly. wife loves it. milage is good. weds i go back to the dealer, non ford, and turn in title to my trade in and they wash the cmax for me since it was later in day when i bought it monday. Drive the car the 15 miles, one stop, then home. 30 min later i grab something out of the trunk and jump in other car to go to work, get a call 30 min later and wife says the c max is dead, wouldnt do anything. came home and jumped it, drove it to work. two hours later, after i found this thread, i went and checked on it, all was fine. another few hours pass, wont start. had ford come jump it at work, drove it around for a few then went back to finish my shift. 3 hours later had to have co worker jump it. got it home, hooked up trickle charger and charged it to 100%. when i hooked it up it said 55% on the battery at 12.1 volts or amps. I left it from 100% at 2am, go back out at 7am and its at 25% charge. switched charger to jump mode, tried, nothing, warning lights all came on, start fault on gauges. assume its not powerful enough charger to jump. im waiting for a jump or tow now to the dealership. i work in a few hours and the dealer told me no loaner or rental unless i bought the service plan. i have owned the car 3 full days, i am really stressed out and wont have a way to get to work now. i contacted the ford rep on here named crystal. any other ideas on how to get a rental or loaner today? much appreciated and thanks for all the great info in this thread. each time it died, no doors open nothing plugged into any charge port, except first time when the phone charger was plugged in center console.

[kc1174]

so monday, 3 days ago, i buy a used 2013 cmax sel with all the options minus park assist and the foot thing to open the hatch. Drive it monday night, tuesday and weds am for about 160 miles. works perfectly. wife loves it. milage is good. weds i go back to the dealer, non ford, and turn in title to my trade in and they wash the cmax for me since it was later in day when i bought it monday. Drive the car the 15 miles, one stop, then home. 30 min later i grab something out of the trunk and jump in other car to go to work, get a call 30 min later and wife says the c max is dead, wouldnt do anything. came home and jumped it, drove it to work. two hours later, after i found this thread, i went and checked on it, all was fine. another few hours pass, wont start. had ford come jump it at work, drove it around for a few then went back to finish my shift. 3 hours later had to have co worker jump it. got it home, hooked up trickle charger and charged it to 100%. when i hooked it up it said 55% on the battery at 12.1 volts or amps. I left it from 100% at 2am, go back out at 7am and its at 25% charge. switched charger to jump mode, tried, nothing, warning lights all came on, start fault on gauges. assume its not powerful enough charger to jump. im waiting for a jump or tow now to the dealership. i work in a few hours and the dealer told me no loaner or rental unless i bought the service plan. i have owned the car 3 full days, i am really stressed out and wont have a way to get to work now. i contacted the ford rep on here named crystal. any other ideas on how to get a rental or loaner today? much appreciated and thanks for all the great info in this thread. each time it died, no doors open nothing plugged into any charge port, except first time when the phone charger was plugged in center console.

Sorry to hear that. I would say if it's a Ford dealer you bought it from, it's still under warranty <36,000 miles, and given these concerns are something Ford has open tickets for, then they should honor a rental at the very least. Actually, I'm not sure it being under 36k is a requirement since these are TSB's etc. were talking about.

 

Best advice is to give Ford corporate a call. Chances are if your car had this happen so soon, then it's been in elsewhere (or the same dealer..) for the same issue, and Ford would know.

[adamisbomb]

yeah i bought it from a local volvo dealer. ill call ford corperate now as i wait for the tow truck and check on that, great idea thanks!

[drdiesel1]

yeah i bought it from a local volvo dealer. ill call ford corperate now as i wait for the tow truck and check on that, great idea thanks!

You'll need to have it checked out first. It could be a bad battery.

[adamisbomb]

its at the dealer now, hoping its a bad battery as it wouldnt jump this morning and had to be flatbedded to dealer. would make some sense as its been on the lot for 5.5 months and was then driven heavily once i bought it

[adamisbomb]

no word from the dealer yet. still hoping its just a new battery to fix it.hope they check it all out though. so i saw in a thread last night there was one of the battery jumper/chargers that was yellow and fits in the under foot storage in rear footwell and plugs into the 12v plug in the rear of car and can jump the battery. can someone link me to this i cant find it for the life of me. i want to buy it asap. thanks!