POB24 PODC9 CMAX Energi error codes Battery Failure

[scooter_scum]

Well, it has been a while since I've posted anything.  Mostly I have had nothing new to report.  My 2013 CMAX Energi has been running flawlessly for the most part. With 87,200 miles and averaging 64 MPG it has treated my family pretty well.  My current tank is 84 MPG and expect it to drop with the cold weather.  Anyway, we were getting all sorts of CHECK ENGINE lights and WRENCH lights in various combinations.  I picked up an OBD2 code reader and it reported

 

1. POB24 - Hybrid Battery A Voltage unstable
2. PODC9 - Balancing circuit "H" Stuck on

 

The car START/STOP feature that turns off the engine at stop lights stopped working.  Engine and transmission would surge while driving.  The engine would stay on while coasting down hills or to stop lights.  It was just frustrating since we knew it could be sooooo much better driving experience.  We decided to take it in to get it all sorted out.  My usual independent mechanic looked at the two error codes and said... not here.  Better take it to Ford.  I scheduled time with my closest Ford Dealer in Longmont Colorado.  They spent 5 hours trying to diagnose what the problem could be.  They came up with two potential problems:

 

1. Battery Controller - $1,100 - $550 in parts, $550 in labor OR
2. PHEV Battery - $13,500 they think.  They have never replaced one before so it was going to be a new experience for them.

 

Ford was recommending the controller replacement first.  Geez... Ya think?!?!?  The dealer had a Nissan Leaf on the lot.  My wife has really wants to go full electric.  So I enquired with the sales side what kind of deal I might swing with my CMAX traded in on the Leaf.  They went out and looked at the car.  My wife had a scrap on the front bumper, but otherwise in good condition.  They talked to service and came back and said they would be willing to give me $2,000 as a trade-in for the Leaf.  My jaw hit the floor!  That's all my Ford was worth to Ford?!?!  I think I paid $38,000 for this car and after 87,200 miles and 8 years it is only worth $2,000??  That's $0.41/mile depreciation.  You would think I was driving a BMW or something similar to have that kind of depreciation. 

 

So after sleeping on the problem and checking what a CMAX on Craig's list were going for, I figured it was worth gambling $1,100 since the Hybrid versions were going for $14,000.  We ordered the part and had it installed today.

 

Well, it took several hours to replace, but seemed to go in OK.  Service guy said fingers crossed this solves the problem.  We were due for a Colorado Emissions test, so I figured I better run right over and get my emissions while all the lights were off.  Crazy thing, I could not get my emissions because I needed to drive it for a while.  There was no Computer Data for them to analyze.  So I drove it home and as I got close to home and 2 miles left on my battery - The wrench light came on.  I went home and my OBD2 reader reported:

 

1. POB24 - Hybrid Battery A Voltage unstable

 

The battery controller appears to be the source of the PODC9. So now it appears the Battery is the source of all the problems.  According to Ford dealer, they want me to send the battery back to Ford for them to go Cell by Cell to find the issue with my battery.  He guessed it would take at least a week for the service, but they have no idea.  This was all new to them.  They don't know how much it might cost.  They claim a "new" battery is $13,500.  Not sure what the cost of Servicing the existing battery to find the bad cell or cells.  

 

So long story short - I really wanted to support Ford to start producing very fuel efficient vehicles in the US.  I believe PHEV and all EV cars are the future -- especially when we consider Climate Change.  I don't know how Ford is going to compete in this new world if they don't stand behind their cars better.  I started looking at a Toyota Venza hybrid.  It gets 40 mpg, but at least a Toyota will hold it's value.  The hybrid system has a 150,000 mile warranty! In AZ, the state mandated Hybrid manufactures to warranty the systems for 150,000 miles.  Maybe my CMAX will be worth more than $2,000 in AZ, I don't know but I'm pretty depressed about the whole thing.

 

I was able to charge up the battery and used my OBD2 reader to clear the POB24 error and was successful in passing emissions in Colorado.  I guess that gives me a year to sort out what to do long term with my Ford.  ?

Edited December 2, 2020 by scooter_scum

[plus 3 golfer]

So are you saying  your Energi was past the 8 year / 100k miles unique hybrid components warranty as the Battery Control Module and HVB would be a covered item when you had Ford look at it?  
 

There are places which rebuild HVB.  Here’s a link. https://hybridbatteryrepairsandiego.com/ford-product.html

 

Also, you should be able to get a used HVB from a salvage yard. Here’s one on EBay from a Fusion which should work.

 

 https://www.embay.com/itm/Battery-Energi-SE-Plug-In-From-09-12-13-Fits-14-FUSION-1644965/293857579338?hash=item446b46d14a:g:VkcAAOSwe3Nfv6-r

Edited December 2, 2020 by plus 3 golfer

[scooter_scum]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:34 PM, plus 3 golfer said:

So are you saying  your Energi was past the 8 year / 100k miles unique hybrid components warranty as the Battery Control Module and HVB would be a covered item when you had Ford look at it?  
 

There are places which rebuild HVB.  Here’s a link. https://hybridbatteryrepairsandiego.com/ford-product.html

 

Also, you should be able to get a used HVB from a salvage yard. Here’s one on EBay from a Fusion which should work.

 

 https://www.embay.com/itm/Battery-Energi-SE-Plug-In-From-09-12-13-Fits-14-FUSION-1644965/293857579338?hash=item446b46d14a:g:VkcAAOSwe3Nfv6-r

 

Yes, I asked if anything about my problem was covered by warranty.  They said no.  I bought the first CMAX that came to Colorado.  I picked it up Nov 5, 2012.  They suggested I whine to the Ford Help number that they might be able to help.  

 

Thank you for the link above.  That will help me sleep better that this car is not trashed with battery issues.  You are my hero today!

[plus 3 golfer]

I looked at the service manual and Dealer followed procedure which recommends replacing  BECM at step 3 in troubleshooting procedures, if POB24 still exists.  The remaining 5 steps are checks on charging HVB, HVB cell variation, check cell balance circuit, and the last two involve shutting car off for 24 hours twice and check cell variation and check for return of code.  If code still there, replace HVB.

 

The issue is that Ford does not offer HVB rebuilds.  Maybe call the company in the first link (search for closer one in Colorado) and get the scoop on rebuilding.  Then perhaps negotiate with Ford on rebuild cost.  I would not want my car at dealer with HVB removed and held hostage as to repair cost or a new battery cost. 

[scooter_scum]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:26 PM, scooter_scum said:

 

Yes, I asked if anything about my problem was covered by warranty.  They said no.  I bought the first CMAX that came to Colorado.  I picked it up Nov 5, 2012.  They suggested I whine to the Ford Help number that they might be able to help.  

 

Thank you for the link above.  That will help me sleep better that this car is not trashed with battery issues.  You are my hero today!

Well, I just spent time on the Ford customer service line 800-392-3673 and they said they can not do anything about my Hybrid battery being 11 days out of warranty.  I guess that is the simple accountant response, but a very sad response for somebody who wants to compete with Tesla with battery powered vehicles.  I mean seriously, how can the public trust a car manufacture to produce a 250 mile range car when they won't stand behind a car with 20 mile range.  11 days out of warranty and Ford estimates $15,000 in parts and labor to fix my car.  Great sadness!  I guess you can see why Tesla's market value is so impressive!!!  1) They produced well engineered cars 2) they stand behind them.

 

Service guy said they expect their new Ford Electric Mustang to loose 30% value in the first year of ownership.... I guess it is because it is a Ford.  

[Rusty]

This is so sad to read. Not only for you and your "loss", but also for the fact that I just dropped my car (same make/model/year) at the mechanics with the exact same engine code. ?

[Wojo]

I have a ‘14 C-max Energi and test drove a TESLA Model Y last week... It was a very good dealer experience.  At a 325 mile range, a mid 40’s sticker price, and being 100% solar at my home, I think the Model Y is my next (and last) vehicle purchase.....

[SnowStorm]

Sounds like a great plan - hope to get there too in a couple of years.  For those who can keep their car home most days (retired, work from home, whatever) you can keep a car solar charged with about 10 panels!  That's using 15k miles per year, 250 W-Hrs/mile, average of 4kW-Hrs / kW of solar panels / day, 370 watts / panel, and only 70% charge efficiency.  A commuter could split the mileage between two cars and still keep them solar charged most of the time.  Think of it - an unending supply of free fuel for your cars that's completely under your control!  In the long run, I think these two points are the real advantages for going electric.  You wouldn't even need the cost or regulatory issues of connecting those panels to the grid.  Just a simple DC to DC charger is all you would need.  (Efficiency would likely be over 90% - not 70%.)

[plus 3 golfer]

On 12/20/2020 at 10:35 AM, Wojo said:

I have a ‘14 C-max Energi and test drove a TESLA Model Y last week... It was a very good dealer experience.  At a 325 mile range, a mid 40’s sticker price, and being 100% solar at my home, I think the Model Y is my next (and last) vehicle purchase.....

325 mile range? Not on interstate and freeways here! “On our 75-mph 200-mile highway test route, the Y achieves a real-world range of 220 miles” - Car & Driver.   I would not buy any car if I had to fill up every 200 miles on a trip let alone an EV (charging station unavailability when needed and wasted time).  

I have installed solar on 2 homes in AZ and looked hard at the economics of increasing size of PV system to accommodate charging an EV.  The economics simply don’t work for me when most of miles put on vehicles are trip miles, our daily and weekly driving miles varies significantly, hybrids are available with very good fuel economy, and cost of EV compared to hybrids are significantly higher.  The Tesla battery is 75 kWh.  In sunny Phoenix, a 5 kW system produces about 8800 kWh per year with highest generation in May June and lowest in Dec.  Factoring in the utility rate tariffs (including lower off peak rates), one has a virtually impossible job as to sizing of additional PV, timing of charging, and use of EV to make it economical to increase PV size very much for EV charging during the peak PV hours.  

[Noah Harbinger]

On 12/1/2020 at 8:34 PM, plus 3 golfer said:

There are places which rebuild HVB.  Here’s a link. https://hybridbatteryrepairsandiego.com/ford-product.html

 

I'm sure you weren't recommending them specifically so much as using them as an example of the concept, but: 

 

Drop-off location in a residential neighborhood with a 'shop' that is one of four mailboxes on a recycling shop. Every single 5-star review calls out the owner ("Chris") by name. Every single other review is 1 star. Sketchy as heck.

[Noah Harbinger]

On 12/1/2020 at 4:04 PM, scooter_scum said:

So I enquired with the sales side what kind of deal I might swing with my CMAX traded in on the Leaf.  They went out and looked at the car.  My wife had a scrap on the front bumper, but otherwise in good condition.  They talked to service and came back and said they would be willing to give me $2,000 as a trade-in for the Leaf.  My jaw hit the floor!  That's all my Ford was worth to Ford?!?!  I think I paid $38,000 for this car and after 87,200 miles and 8 years it is only worth $2,000??  That's $0.41/mile depreciation.  You would think I was driving a BMW or something similar to have that kind of depreciation. 

 

At some point I was trying to separate vehicle costs per mile into fixed cost per year and marginal cost per mile. I used KBB estimates for CMaxes of different ages and mileage to try to figure out what model they were using (I don't know if they use a model or base their numbers purely on auction prices) to figure that out. I wish I still had that spreadsheet, but if I remember correctly, the depreciation per mile was only about 8 cents per mile; the rest was all fixed depreciation per year.

 

The upside to having a car that is not highly valued, it can't depreciate much further! 

[jestevens]

Ford originally overstated the MPG and I guess they have a reputation as unreliable, so the resale value is not high.  You can get a Titanium Energi now for $17K? 

 

That DOES make it a very affordable car for someone looking to buy their first hybrid, and the trim level is amazing for that price, but there have been issues with the 12V battery, especially on SEs and some issues with transmission.  Mine still has 109K miles and no problems except for the 12V legitimately needing to be replaced.

 

After more than 325K mi on her Corolla my mom is looking CMAX, Escape Hybrid, RAV4 and Camry Hybrids which are at least $25K used or $34K+ new.

Edited January 5, 2021 by jestevens

[jestevens]

She ended up picking the 2020 RAV4 Hybrid XLE -- says she's very happy so far.

 

On 1/5/2021 at 11:39 AM, jestevens said:

After more than 325K mi on her Corolla my mom is looking CMAX, Escape Hybrid, RAV4 and Camry Hybrids which are at least $25K used or $34K+ new.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by jestevens

[BalutFX]

We've had this same problem off and on for years.  First brought to our local Ford dealer way before the warranty ran out, but the answer was always, the code is no longer active, so reset and see if it returns.  That last time it happened (right before the 100,000 mile warranty ran out), the answer was "can't help you".  We even complained to Ford and got nowhere.  And to make it worse, they charged me $$$ to "diagnose" problem.  Well, the problem is back and we are now at 104,000 miles.  My wife suggested that Ford would fix it this time, since we had a "history".  I'm 100% confident they will not, and will likely not even bother taking it in to spend more $$$ to "diagnose" the problem.  They stopped producing this vehicle and seem content to just let us complain on forums about their refusal to fix a common issue, because there are too few of us to damage their reputation.  Yes, I am venting, but this is the only "satisfaction" we will get.

[Aaron Lennon]

I had a similar problem on 2013 Ford CMAX Energi that I bought new in 2013. However the reason I am responding is to see if you ever solved it?

 

Currently I show the following error codes

a. PODC9 - Hybrid/EV Battery Cell Balancing Circuit "H" Stuck On.

b.PODE1 - Hybrid/EV Battery Cell Balancing Circuit "N" Stuck On.

c. PODDD - Hybrid/EV Battery Cell Balancing Circuit "M" Stuck On.

 

I also just hit 175,000 miles today.

 

I believe cleaning the contacts on the battery (like where the eyelets for the wires go over the post on the high voltage battery) will solve this problem and I provided a video of a similar issue on a prius to my ford service dealer.  He shrugged me off and said they couldn't fix this unless they replaced the battery. He basically doesn't understand anything that isn't mechanical which is what is going to leave a bunch of people unemployed in the electrical revolution. ?

 

Anyway, the car still runs great and the light goes off after a few days. I have had no noticeable reduction in performance from this.  I am not going to do my own car work and i'm not taking the car back to the dealer so I will drive it until it dies. For anyone wondering, when the car was new I was able to go about 30 miles in all EV mode and now I only get about 17 miles each day.  Pretty good I think considering how old it is.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Aaron Lennon

[SPWj]

Hi folks, thanks for taking your time out to discuss this issue.

Today the wrench light came on, and the service engine soon light came on.  When I checked on the DTC it was P0DC9 (Hybrid/EV)Battery Cell Balancing Circuit H Stuck On.  My 2013 c-max energi has 59,073 miles on it, so I call Ford, and was given a case number and told that the HV batteries and components have a 10year or 150,000 mile warranty.

I am going to go to my Ford Dealer with my case number and see if he has anyone trained to make the repairs.

 

Wish me LUCK!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by SPWj
paragraph mistakes

[hunt3rj2]

https://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/4657-obd-code-pd0dd1/?tab=comments#comment-28265

 

Different car, but the powertrains are basically identical. Sounds like a BECM failure if it doesn't go away after clearing the code or maybe power cycling the BECM.

[cr08]

I've only ever had these 'cell balancing circuit stuck on' codes occur once on my Energi and that was after returning home on EV+ mode and letting it draw the battery down low and the cold weather likely brought the pack voltages down real low and triggered it. Next startup had the MIL lit and the ICE ran full time. A few vehicle restarts later it went away and hasn't been a problem since.

 

I say if it is still under warranty, definitely doesn't hurt to check with your dealer and they can probably do much more thorough checks of the battery and other systems.

[kepler2]

I'm having the same "battery balancing stuck" problem.  It has happened before and is maybe triggered when the nav system forgets to shut itself off.  I have taken the car in several times only to be told they cleared the OBD stored codes and all is good.  Except the real problem that the battery has 50% of its rated range.

 

As it turns out, I was in Fort Collins a couple of days ago and the wrench came on.  Mine just ticked over 8 years.  I had it in to a dealer in San Diego for an oil change and asked them to check the battery died to lack of range.  Turned out the warranty was expiring the next day.  Same story, "battery wear and transient codes not covered".

 

So mine will either go into Mike Maroone (Longmont) Ford or Interstate (Dacono) Ford in the next day or two. 

 

Whoever posted 10 years or 150,000 miles, did you get a reference for where that came from?  Is that maybe a TSB to head off class action?  A couple of years ago we bought an Escape Hybrid.  At the time Ford was claiming that they had only ever replaced three hybrid batteries even across the hundreds of thousands of Escapes used as taxis in NYC.  This sounds like a much broader issue with the second gen(?) batteries.

 

There used to be a battery rebuilder someplace on the west, maybe southwest, side of Denver.  If Ford keeps stiffarming me, maybe I will hunt them down again.  Price was significantly less than $13,000.

 

By the by, federal government mandates that EV builders warrantee the electrical drive components.  Used to be for 80,000 miles.  High voltage battery included.  There are TWO manufacturers that try to end around the law by claiming that batteries are consumable parts, that battery wear is not covered by warranty.  Ford is one of the two companies.  The other one is ...

 

Tesla

 

The various other car companies set an expected maximum range loss by year since built.  If you exceed the range loss they replace the batteries.  I believe this was the intent of the federal law.

[jzchen]

@kepler2 Sorry for the late response!  I do believe CA and other CARB states follow the longer warranty requirements.  If your car was initially sold in a CARB state may determine whether it falls under the 8 yr vs 10 yr rule.  I'll be back after I look for some replacement battery sources....

[SPWj]

Gents, my 2013 Ford C-Max Energi. 60,321 miles another problem popped up with a noisy right front axil center bearing, the dealer replaced right front axil assembly, but it cost $496.42 after negotiating down from $700.   Shortly after that the dealer replaced the whole EV motor assembly due to an internal bearing failure, Ford picked up the tab.  Common problem.  So far so good.

Now after a month or so at 61,068 miles the service light came second time with P0DC9 code.  You are right cold weather may be an issue in Mass. 12-08-2021.  Already had the case opened with Ford for 8-2-2021.  My dealer says they have not had to replace the HV batteries in his 14 years.  Interesting.  He also stated that that generic code Circuit H Stuck ON means, Balancing Circuit is showing High Voltage.

 

[Bootney Lee]

I came here because I couldn't find any information about my Ford Fusion Energi SE and this particular error code I recently pulled:

 

P0DDD - Hybrid/(EV) Battery Cell Balancing Circuit M Stuck On

 

I've actually had this code come up before but when I went to the dealership with this info they always said that they didn't see the code (maybe it was cleared once it was read?). The only thing they could "find" was that my ECM module needed to be replaced to the tune of over $1,500.00

 

The ECM is probably bad because I can't schedule a charge time from the main screen, but that doesn't help with my battery problem. 

 

Now the CHECK ENGINE light with the wrench comes up, then disappears after charging with either a 120V or 240V EVSE.

 

I have 157k on the car so it's conveniently (for Ford) out of warranty.

 

Anyone have any luck with the aftermarket battery rebuilders?

 

It's a shame that these Fords has such terrible battery systems and incredibly high depreciation (I believe the Fusion Energi had the greatest depreciation of any car in the US in the past 5-8 years... Yikes). What a mistake to buy a Ford. I'm pretty confident that this is my first and last Ford. Ever.

 

 

 

 

[dannyb]

I just got the annoying engine warning light, along with the wrench, and the msg “see manual”.

(As if that had anything useful in it).

Car ran in gasoline only mode the next 15 miles until I got home.  Hooked up the OBD scanner and got, yeah:
”PODC9 Permanent”, “Hybrid/ev battery cell balancing circuit “H” Stuck on”

 

I reset it, drove about ten miles.  No error light but… when I hooked up the OBD scanner

it came up with yes, that error msg.  I guess it’s one of the “flash the warning lights

if this is bad two tests in a row”.

 

Well, it’s a 2017 C-Max Energi with 82 thousand miles…. so I’ll cross my fingers about the warranty

and head to the dealer.

 

Thanks to all.  dannyb

[homestead]

My son had 2016 Energi with similar errors, they never came back.

[Jason S]

My 2013 Energi started throwing these P0dba, P0dbe, and P0dbe errors this year, right after the CARB 10 year / 100000 mile warranty on the hybrid batter expired. It drives fine except for only having about 50% of the original range.

There's also a CARB 15 year / 150000 mile warranty on other PZEV hybrid system parts, though, and I'm now in an argument with the dealership over whether the codes mean they have to replace my Battery Energy Control Module on warranty, or mean that the entire off-warranty hybrid battery is faulty (a massive $12k fix from them, and $6k-7k even after market). I wish I could find some clear information somewhere to make the case for the BECM replacement.

The real problem from my perspective is that California won't allow it to pass smog as long as it keeps throwing these error codes, and if it can't pass smog to be registered, it becomes a $1500 scrap sell at best. I may try resetting the ODB2 and driving until it's ready to see if it can slip past smog before the codes recur. Or maybe I'll manage to get Ford to replace the BECM and that will fix the issue. I rather like the C-Max, and it will hurt if it ends up forcibly retired while it's still drivable.